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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #200 on: April 21, 2017, 03:26:51 PM »
Or the slightly more wordy version;

Tom saw a video (it’s in his first post), where this bloke gets excited about the fact that the angle that the moon seems to be pointing doesn’t correspond to the angle you would expect it to be at when in the sky with the sun, then he kind of figuratively goes woo, but doesn’t say what it all means, I think he has other videos that go woo about other stuff including flat earth stuff, so Tom goes woo too.
The RE collective (TM Rama) point out after a while that it’s an optical illusion that can be collapsed by stretching a straight piece of string between the two, but Tom is struggling, the conditions are right to do this in the morning now, I think (we’ve had wall to wall cloud the last 3 days), could you help him?

(11 pages! Fuck I must get out more)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 03:31:04 PM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

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Online junker

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #201 on: April 21, 2017, 03:44:42 PM »
TL;dr
Be it resolved that a line drawn on the 2D projection of the sky, perpindicular from the chord of the lunar terminator intersects with the sun. FE has assumed the negative side.


Or the slightly more wordy version;

Tom saw a video (it’s in his first post), where this bloke gets excited about the fact that the angle that the moon seems to be pointing doesn’t correspond to the angle you would expect it to be at when in the sky with the sun, then he kind of figuratively goes woo, but doesn’t say what it all means, I think he has other videos that go woo about other stuff including flat earth stuff, so Tom goes woo too.
The RE collective (TM Rama) point out after a while that it’s an optical illusion that can be collapsed by stretching a straight piece of string between the two, but Tom is struggling, the conditions are right to do this in the morning now, I think (we’ve had wall to wall cloud the last 3 days), could you help him?

(11 pages! Fuck I must get out more)


Alright, I think I am caught up. I wouldn't mind giving it a go if/when I am thinking about it and conditions allow for it. However, regardless of outcome, why would this be evidence for either side? Seems to be explainable in either model.
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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #202 on: April 21, 2017, 03:51:25 PM »

Well quite! We've been arguing for 11 pages saying that it didn't prove a thing about flat/round, it's just an illusion, but Tom keeps going woo, I just want it to stop Junker, I can't  sleep.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #203 on: April 21, 2017, 03:53:38 PM »

Well quite! We've been arguing for 11 pages saying that it didn't prove a thing about flat/round, it's just an illusion, but Tom keeps going woo, I just want it to stop Junker, I can't  sleep.

Is the whole thing leaving you in... limbo?
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #204 on: April 21, 2017, 04:03:26 PM »

And now Rama is saying things I feel I should find funny, he’s a funny guy, right? But I don’t, not even when I stretch a piece of string to join all the words.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #205 on: April 21, 2017, 05:05:55 PM »
Alright, I think I am caught up. I wouldn't mind giving it a go if/when I am thinking about it and conditions allow for it. However, regardless of outcome, why would this be evidence for either side? Seems to be explainable in either model.

Junker, it is an invalid experiment. You are replicating the direction, but not the angle of the moon. With the string you may end up making a path that connects the two bodies, but is not true to the angle of the moon:

« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 05:07:51 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #206 on: April 21, 2017, 05:11:14 PM »
Alright, I think I am caught up. I wouldn't mind giving it a go if/when I am thinking about it and conditions allow for it. However, regardless of outcome, why would this be evidence for either side? Seems to be explainable in either model.

Junker, it is an invalid experiment. You are replicating the direction, but not the angle of the moon. With the string you may end up making a path that connects the two bodies, but is not true to the angle of the moon:


How do you know it doesn't bisect the phase of the moon?

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #207 on: April 21, 2017, 06:01:15 PM »
Hello everyone, new here...

I found this video helpful... not sure if anyone else here will


Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #208 on: April 21, 2017, 06:05:04 PM »
Alright, I think I am caught up. I wouldn't mind giving it a go if/when I am thinking about it and conditions allow for it. However, regardless of outcome, why would this be evidence for either side? Seems to be explainable in either model.

Junker, it is an invalid experiment. You are replicating the direction, but not the angle of the moon. With the string you may end up making a path that connects the two bodies, but is not true to the angle of the moon:



That is your misunderstanding in a nutshell. When the string or stick exactly bisects the sun and the moon, it does form a perpendicular to the line between dark and light on the moon, which you would have discovered if you were not so inexplicably resistant to actually looking for yourself. Maintaining that perpendicular relationship to the line on the moon, and keeping the line of the stick/string at the correct height so that it continues to bisect both the sun and the moon only allows movement in one additional plane which is to move one end of the stick closer or further away from your eyes (from above this would be rotating the stick like a pinwheel). But when you do that while maintaining the perpendicular to the line of light/dark on the moon, the stick or string still bisects the sun.

Changing this third dimensional position of the stick or string does not change the perpendicular relationship of the stick to the line on the moon, nor does it cause the line of the string or stick to stop bisecting the discs of the sun and the moon. Note, if you rotate the stick or string far enough away from your eye, it begins to appear shortened as any stick does if you turn it while keeping it at a preset angle due to perspective, but the actual line formed by the stick/string continues to bisect the sun and moon if it is extended beyond the ends of the stick/string which now appear shortened due to perspective. Of course if you keep rotating a stick like this, it will eventually form a point instead of a line as you will be looking at just one end of the stick, but prior to that point, the apparent directions extending beyond the ends of the stick will still bisect the sun and the moon and also maintain the proper angle to the light/dark boundary on the moon.

Please Junker, do the experiment and report back so that we can move on....although if we are going to wait for Tom Bishop to accept defeat, that is probably a pipe dream. Conditions will be ideal again around May 2nd when the moon will be at the first quarter phase, for easy viewing of the sun and partially shaded moon in the late afternoon and just before sunset.

PS: Tom, The problem with your drawing is that you are only showing two dimensions, so when the stick figure bends over, the perpendicular relationship of the stick to the light boundary on the moon is lost. This does not occur when actually doing the experiment, even when I turn the stick in the third dimension.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 06:11:36 PM by Nirmala »

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #209 on: April 21, 2017, 06:21:59 PM »
Hello everyone, new here...

I found this video helpful... not sure if anyone else here will


Indeed it is, and such a simple experiment as well. No floppy strings needed.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #210 on: April 21, 2017, 06:50:12 PM »

Junker, it is an invalid experiment. You are replicating the direction, but not the angle of the moon. With the string you may end up making a path that connects the two bodies, but is not true to the angle of the moon:


Yet somehow, strangely, illogically, removing the string and eyeballing it is totally valid and eliminates this concern for you? 
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #211 on: April 21, 2017, 08:02:18 PM »
i honestly don't understand what the stick figure drawing is supposed to be showing.  the stick figure appears to be looking up, but the sun and moon are depicted as off to the side.  are the sun and moon supposed to be near the horizon like they're drawn, or are they supposed to be high up in the sky?  and what is the field of view here?  is this supposed to be a representation of what the video person saw?

i definitely didn't have to bend over like the stick figure to make my measurement.  the sun was on the horizon, and the half-crescent moon was maybe 30-45ish deg above the horizon (really rough guess, but something like that) and 'pointing' up and to the left.  when i was looking directly at the moon, the sun was off to my left, not behind me.  i did the experiment standing up straight with both the sun and moon basically right in front of me.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #212 on: April 21, 2017, 11:43:48 PM »
Hello everyone, new here...

I found this video helpful... not sure if anyone else here will


Indeed it is, and such a simple experiment as well. No floppy strings needed.

Totally invalid video. Bad logic. The sun is a nearly steady 93 million miles away. How is it descending as it recedes from you with the same perspective mechanism as the end of a hallway?

You do realize that in order for a body to descend to perspective as it recedes from you it needs to double and quadruple and n-tuple its distance to you. Right? Don't be clueless.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 04:00:46 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #213 on: April 21, 2017, 11:52:01 PM »
Tom, you think eyeballing a line is better than using a measuring stick. You really shouldn't insinuate someone else is clueless.
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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #214 on: April 22, 2017, 03:52:06 AM »
Here is a string for you, Tom.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #215 on: April 22, 2017, 04:15:13 AM »
Hey Flatout, this comment applies to you, too:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Totally invalid video. Bad logic. The sun is a nearly steady 93 million miles away. How is it descending as it recedes from you with the same perspective mechanism as the end of a hallway?

You do realize that in order for a body to descend to perspective as it recedes from you it needs to double and quadruple and n-tuple its distance to you. Right? Don't be clueless.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 04:18:50 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #216 on: April 22, 2017, 04:15:32 AM »
Hey Flatout, this comment applies to you, too:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Totally invalid video. Bad logic. The sun is a nearly steady 93 million miles away. How is it descending as it recedes from you with the same perspective mechanism as the end of a hallway?

You do realize that in order for a body to descend to perspective as it recedes from you it needs to double and quadruple and n-tuple its distance to you. Right? Don't be clueless.
I don't think that sun appears to be lower on the horizon because of perspective.  I believe that the angle between the sun and moon appear to not be congruent because of perspective.  You seem to be implying that the sun appears to be lower because of perspective.  My position is that the sun appears to be lower than the projected line of perspective when looking at the moon.  The two are very different.  The distance between the two objects is absolutely irrelevant.  This illusion would happen if the sun was 93 million miles away or only 3,000 miles away. 

« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 04:17:58 AM by Flatout »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #217 on: April 22, 2017, 04:22:27 AM »
Hey Flatout, this comment applies to you, too:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Totally invalid video. Bad logic. The sun is a nearly steady 93 million miles away. How is it descending as it recedes from you with the same perspective mechanism as the end of a hallway?

You do realize that in order for a body to descend to perspective as it recedes from you it needs to double and quadruple and n-tuple its distance to you. Right? Don't be clueless.
I don't think that sun appears to be lower on the horizon because of perspective.  I believe that the angle between the sun and moon appear to not be congruent because of perspective.  You seem to be implying that the sun appears to be lower because of perspective.  My position is that the sun appears to be lower than the projected line of perspective when looking at the moon.  The two are very different.  The distance between the two objects is absolutely irrelevant.  This illusion would happen if the sun was 93 million miles away or only 3,000 miles away.

You are claiming that perspective is the cause for the "celestial sphere" effect. Descent and ascent of bodies in the "celestial sphere" effect on a body 93 million miles away, caused by the mechanism of perspective, is complete baloney!

In order for a body to descend in height as it recedes from you, it must increase its distance to you by many times. This is not happening with the sun as it passes across the sky. The sun is 93 million miles away from you, under the Round Earth model, at all times.

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #218 on: April 22, 2017, 04:24:34 AM »
Hey Flatout, this comment applies to you, too:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Totally invalid video. Bad logic. The sun is a nearly steady 93 million miles away. How is it descending as it recedes from you with the same perspective mechanism as the end of a hallway?

You do realize that in order for a body to descend to perspective as it recedes from you it needs to double and quadruple and n-tuple its distance to you. Right? Don't be clueless.
I don't think that sun appears to be lower on the horizon because of perspective.  I believe that the angle between the sun and moon appear to not be congruent because of perspective.  You seem to be implying that the sun appears to be lower because of perspective.  My position is that the sun appears to be lower than the projected line of perspective when looking at the moon.  The two are very different.  The distance between the two objects is absolutely irrelevant.  This illusion would happen if the sun was 93 million miles away or only 3,000 miles away.

You are claiming that perspective is the cause for the "celestial sphere" effect. Descent and ascent of bodies in the "celestial sphere" effect on a body 93 million miles away, caused by the mechanism of perspective, is complete baloney!

In order for a body to descend in height as it recedes from you, it must increase its distance to you by many times. This is not happening with the sun. The sun is 93 million miles away from you, under the Round Earth model, at all times.
No.  I'm not claiming that the "celestial sphere" effect is an issue of perspective.  The "celestial sphere" effect happens because the brain in unable to comprehend the depth or distance of the objects.

Perspective causes the appearance of the angles to not be congruent when they really are.

The sun and moon change their position compared to the horizon because the earth rotates.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 04:27:43 AM by Flatout »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #219 on: April 22, 2017, 03:16:49 PM »
No.  I'm not claiming that the "celestial sphere" effect is an issue of perspective.  The "celestial sphere" effect happens because the brain in unable to comprehend the depth or distance of the objects.

So the sun and moon changes physical distance and position in relation to each other because the brain is "unable to comprehend depth or distance"? You are going to have to explain that a little more. That sounds rather absurd.

Quote
The sun and moon change their position compared to the horizon because the earth rotates.

Please flesh out this absurdity a little more as well.