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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #160 on: April 19, 2017, 01:33:13 AM »
It is really creepy seeing Tom deny what the RE CollectiveTM has done time and again in this thread; namely: do an experiment that contradicts the OP, and provide an explanation why.

The experiment is an invalid one for reasons already described. Even if at some point I did happen to see the moon pointing at the sun, it does not explain the video in the op where the moon is not pointing at the sun.

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #161 on: April 19, 2017, 01:52:43 AM »
We already have a video in the OP of the effect that you need to counter. The author makes a straight line path away from the moon and it does not point towards the sun.

no he doesn't.  that's the whole point.  he just points with his finger and assumes that he's making a straight line path.  that's a bad experiment.  you need to actually make a straight line with something.  like, you know, a string.  why imagine a straight line when you can use an actual straight line and know for sure?

you're not getting that we're all saying that when we did it, the moon did not appear to be 'pointing' at the sun, just like in the video.  when i did it, the sun was near the horizon, and the moon was pointing up and to the left, not at the horizon.  but when i used the string to make a straight line perpendicular to the moon's terminator, the taut string pointed directly at the sun on the horizon.

i mean, damn, tom, what do you have to lose by trying it yourself?  we're not asking you to document the experience with video or anything.  i already agree that's super impractical.  we're just saying that this is a quick, easy, and direct way to see for yourself that it's a straight line.
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Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #162 on: April 19, 2017, 02:35:04 AM »
I've grown to expect very little from, Tom.  He gets confused with how a piece of string could become straight.

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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #163 on: April 19, 2017, 05:29:34 AM »
We already have a video in the OP of the effect that you need to counter. The author makes a straight line path away from the moon and it does not point towards the sun.

no he doesn't.  that's the whole point.  he just points with his finger and assumes that he's making a straight line path.  that's a bad experiment.  you need to actually make a straight line with something.  like, you know, a string.  why imagine a straight line when you can use an actual straight line and know for sure?

you're not getting that we're all saying that when we did it, the moon did not appear to be 'pointing' at the sun, just like in the video.  when i did it, the sun was near the horizon, and the moon was pointing up and to the left, not at the horizon.  but when i used the string to make a straight line perpendicular to the moon's terminator, the taut string pointed directly at the sun on the horizon.

i mean, damn, tom, what do you have to lose by trying it yourself?  we're not asking you to document the experience with video or anything.  i already agree that's super impractical.  we're just saying that this is a quick, easy, and direct way to see for yourself that it's a straight line.

The straight line path sure doesn't seem to be pointing at the sun to me:

« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 05:44:31 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #164 on: April 19, 2017, 07:59:00 AM »
Okay then slowly….It’s the natural thing to do when two items are low in opposite sides of the sky to turn from one to the other, he could have gone the opposite way round with his pointy finger and traced a seemingly straight line, but if he had followed the tree trunk at the start of the clip, that would have gone slightly over his head and traced the true line, if you don’t believe me, get a piece of string…..
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 08:57:17 AM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #165 on: April 19, 2017, 01:57:07 PM »
i wonder how much time you've spent making gifs and 3d models.  significantly more than the time it takes to hold a piece of string in front of your face, i bet.

no one disagrees that the moon doesn't seem to be 'pointing' at the sun in your video.  but it is.  we're saying that using a real straight line is a better test than finger-pointing and arrows superimposed on a grainy 2d video.  the moon also didn't seem to 'point' at the sun when i did the test, but using a real straight line demonstrated to me that it actually does point at the sun. 

from the faq entry on zeteticism:
Quote
Zeteticism differs from the usual scientific method in that using zeteticism one bases his conclusions on experimentation and observation rather than on an initial theory that is to be proved or disproved. A zetetic forms the question then immediately sets to work making observations and performing experiments to answer that question, rather than speculating on what the answer might be then testing that out.

literally exactly what you're doing with arrows and fingers is speculating on what you think a straight line path should look like.  you're just imagining it in your head rather than testing it empirically with a real straight line.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 03:39:53 PM by garygreen »
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Offline Boots

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #166 on: April 19, 2017, 02:39:47 PM »
that would have gone slightly over his head
I have no trouble believing this. A lot of things do.
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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #167 on: April 19, 2017, 04:04:34 PM »
The crazy thing is that this whole thread evolved from a YouTube video.  The author isn't even a part of this conversation.  It's like anti-zeteticism.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #168 on: April 19, 2017, 06:40:14 PM »
So I gave it a shot with my crappy little smartphone. I am not sure if it proves anything as it is hard to see the actual angle of the lighted area on the moon. I can simply report that I held the rake up with the 90 degree portion of the rake aligned with the line of light and dark on the moon. Then when I panned over to the sun, the long handle of the rake was clearly pointing at the center of the sun. It is a strange thing to perceive, since the moon does appear to be pointing upwards at empty sky, and the sun does appear to be too low in the sky to be creating that appearance on the moon, just as in the original video on this thread.

Anyways, with all of the caveats regarding the quality of the video, here it is (maybe someone else with better video skills could do better):
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 01:53:15 AM by Nirmala »

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #169 on: April 19, 2017, 06:47:22 PM »
I just noticed that in the original video, that when the creator held up his hand to demonstrate the angle that the sun appeared to be hitting the moon from, his hand showed the exact same pattern of light and dark as the moon in the sky behind his hand. So not only does the angle of sun and moon appear off, but the angle of hand and sun appear off. The effect still applies at arm's length.

I was also relieved to see that his video was not that much better than mine  :-\ Although the contrast of the dark rake made it impossible to still see the moon, so again, for now, you would need to take my word that the rake was positioned properly. I may try it again later in the month when the sun is setting and the first quarter moon is high in the sky, as the sun and sky might be much less bright at that time of day which should make the moon easier to see.

In the meantime, anyone who is truly Zetetic can try the experiment for themselves....
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 12:16:23 AM by Nirmala »

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #170 on: April 20, 2017, 01:46:00 AM »
Yep, like I said on page one, holding a small ball out at arm's length will result in the same effect.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #171 on: April 20, 2017, 01:58:03 AM »
Yep, like I said on page one, holding a small ball out at arm's length will result in the same effect.

I remember seeing that. The great thing about a ball, is that you can hold it steady and move your head over behind it, and then look at the sun at the correct angle according to the line of light/dark on the ball. Voila, you will be looking directly at the sun, even though from the side, both the moon and the ball will still look like they are pointing up above the position of the sun.

But then someone would have to believe in the value of doing experiments and direct observation, like say a Zetetic scientist, to ever be bothered to check it for themselves.  ;)

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #172 on: April 20, 2017, 10:13:07 AM »

Ten out of ten for effort Nirmala, be interesting to see what problems the Bish’ will have with it.

I have to be honest though, I was a bit disturbed out find out that “The Heron” wore socks with sandals, your neck of the woods an obvious no go area for the fashion police.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #173 on: April 20, 2017, 02:05:20 PM »

Ten out of ten for effort Nirmala, be interesting to see what problems the Bish’ will have with it.

I have to be honest though, I was a bit disturbed out find out that “The Heron” wore socks with sandals, your neck of the woods an obvious no go area for the fashion police.

Thanks I tried to do my best. And please do not report me to the fashion police. I used to be cool, but now I am just lukewarm   :P
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 02:40:49 PM by Nirmala »

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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #174 on: April 20, 2017, 10:03:56 PM »

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #175 on: April 20, 2017, 11:01:39 PM »


Oh yeah, this is me with the rake and my camera for sure. How did you know I am the local Limbo champion?


I have decided that Tom Bishop is undeniably a troll. Anyone who can't pick up a stick and look at the moon and sun for themselves is not on here for any other purpose than to pull our legs.

And anyways, bending backwards would not change my results at all. As if lowering my head a few feet would make a difference.  ::)

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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #176 on: April 20, 2017, 11:50:35 PM »
The point is that this is an invalid experiment. Limbo has nothing to do with it. While it is possible to get it lined up with the moon's crescent on one axis, you are tilting it on the other axis until there is a spot you can look at it where it lines up with the sun; the stick not truly matching the angle and direction of the moon.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #177 on: April 21, 2017, 12:04:13 AM »
The point is that this is an invalid experiment. Limbo has nothing to do with it. While it is possible to get it lined up with the moon's crescent on one axis, you are tilting it on the other axis until there is a spot you can look at it where it lines up with the sun; the stick not truly matching the angle and direction of the moon.

I figured you would say that...but of course I had the rake in my hands and once I lined it up to be perpendicular to the line between light and dark on the moon, I did not move the rake while I panned the camera. There was no tilting involved.

However, I was doing the Limbo the entire time  ;D

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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #178 on: April 21, 2017, 12:26:47 AM »
I am not saying that you changed the tilt of the rake as you panned to the sun. I am saying that once you get the bottom end aligned with the crescent, there is another dimension of movement where you can tilt it until it appears aligned with the sun from some point. You could easily point your rake a little more vertical and have it still aligned with the crescent, yet pointing off into space. There is no real verification on exactly which angle is the correct angle.

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #179 on: April 21, 2017, 12:45:37 AM »
I am not saying that you changed the tilt of the rake as you panned to the sun. I am saying that once you get the bottom end aligned with the crescent, there is another dimension of movement where you can tilt it until it appears aligned with the sun from some point. You could easily point your rake a little more vertical and have it still aligned with the crescent, yet pointing off into space. There is no real verification on exactly which angle is the correct angle.
Have you tried it for yourself yet?