#### TheTruthIsOnHere

• 943
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2016, 05:29:09 PM »
You, along with all flat earthers seem stuck on the idea that the visible horizon if the vanishing point.
• There is no fixed vanishing point, The vanishing point depends entirely on the size of the object. As a rough indication, Rowbotham's vanishing point = 3,000 x object size guide.

• The distance to the visible horizon has absolutely no connection with the vanishing point. There are numerous photos of objects well past the visible horizon that are quite visible.

I never said there was a fixed vanishing point, my whole diagram and assertion so far have been explaining how optics can affect how we perceive realiy. I never said there is a fixed distance to a vanishing point, I said multiple times that the perception is fluid. What we really use when trying to determine an objects distance is the size of the object we observe. We have a mental frame of reference with how big something is supposed to be, and along with our depth perception our brain tries to estimate how far away something is.

We know things close to the visible horizon are distorted by atmospheric effects. You can see it in all videos and photos. A weather man once explained how you could see a city impossibly in the distance with refraction. If something like that can transpose an entire skyline onto a visible horizon then I think it is completely possible that watching a boat sink hull first could also be an optical illusion. It certainly isn't clear.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 05:49:50 PM by TheTruthIsOnHere »

#### rabinoz

• 1441
• Just look South at the Stars
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2016, 02:03:21 AM »
You, along with all flat earthers seem stuck on the idea that the visible horizon if the vanishing point.
• There is no fixed vanishing point, The vanishing point depends entirely on the size of the object. As a rough indication, Rowbotham's vanishing point = 3,000 x object size guide.

• The distance to the visible horizon has absolutely no connection with the vanishing point. There are numerous photos of objects well past the visible horizon that are quite visible.

I never said there was a fixed vanishing point, my whole diagram and assertion so far have been explaining how optics can affect how we perceive realiy. I never said there is a fixed distance to a vanishing point, I said multiple times that the perception is fluid. What we really use when trying to determine an objects distance is the size of the object we observe. We have a mental frame of reference with how big something is supposed to be, and along with our depth perception our brain tries to estimate how far away something is.

We know things close to the visible horizon are distorted by atmospheric effects. You can see it in all videos and photos. A weather man once explained how you could see a city impossibly in the distance with refraction. If something like that can transpose an entire skyline onto a visible horizon then I think it is completely possible that watching a boat sink hull first could also be an optical illusion. It certainly isn't clear.

Yes, I have seen numerous photos of ships floating above the horizon with bits apparently missing, but these are rare events, which is probably why the photo was taken.

"Normal refraction" bends light down by about 0.57° at the horizon and 0.48° at 0.5° above the horizon. But, these are just "normal" figures and can vary.
Astronomers from Tycho Brahe on are only too aware of this refraction.

But to use a rare occurrence to explain the usual observation does not seem at all logical to me.
It's just like all the flat earthers jumping up and down, so excited that Chicago could be seen from 30 miles away over Lake Michigan, "proving the earth is flat".
A bit of a hollow claim when there are numerous photos showing very different amounts hidden.

Sailors report that ships disappear over the horizon as a matter of course and use that fact to estimate distance.
If this were not so, you might wonder why lookouts are given instruction on using the following to assist in distance estimation:
"HULL UP The ship is in from the horizon.
HULL DOWN The ship is over the horizon. Only a part of the superstructure can be seen, but the hull is not yet visible on the horizon.
ON THE HORIZON The waterline of the ship's hull appears to be on or near the horizon."
See Lookout Training Handbook page 21. Figure 5-5: Range – Height Table on page 20 gives estimates of the distance to the horozon for various eye-heights.
Someone should instruct the US Navy the the earth is really flat!

#### TheTruthIsOnHere

• 943
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2016, 09:04:03 PM »

Yes, I have seen numerous photos of ships floating above the horizon with bits apparently missing, but these are rare events, which is probably why the photo was taken.

"Normal refraction" bends light down by about 0.57° at the horizon and 0.48° at 0.5° above the horizon. But, these are just "normal" figures and can vary.
Astronomers from Tycho Brahe on are only too aware of this refraction.

But to use a rare occurrence to explain the usual observation does not seem at all logical to me.

Show me a single clear photo or video of a ship going over a horizon.

Here's something that's pretty enlightening. If you want just mute it and make your own assessment and observations.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 09:18:14 PM by TheTruthIsOnHere »

#### rabinoz

• 1441
• Just look South at the Stars
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2016, 12:21:34 AM »
Yes, I have seen numerous photos of ships floating above the horizon with bits apparently missing, but these are rare events, which is probably why the photo was taken.

"Normal refraction" bends light down by about 0.57° at the horizon and 0.48° at 0.5° above the horizon. But, these are just "normal" figures and can vary.
Astronomers from Tycho Brahe on are only too aware of this refraction.

But to use a rare occurrence to explain the usual observation does not seem at all logical to me.

Show me a single clear photo or video of a ship going over a horizon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xWsuFLdgBs

Here's something that's pretty enlightening. If you want just mute it and make your own assessment and observations.
I already said
"Yes, I have seen numerous photos of ships floating above the horizon with bits apparently missing, but these are rare events, which is probably why the photo was taken.
. . . . . . . . . .
But to use a rare occurrence to explain the usual observation does not seem at all logical to me."
So why show another with an inferior mirage?

So, the US Navy and sailors for thousands of years have been mistaken?

You have seen this Does the Flat Earth make Verifiable Predictions that differ from the Globe Earth « Message by rabinoz on June 16, 2016, 02:06:41 AM »
but maybe you should look at the video it was taken from
But I don't know why I bother. Ships disappearing is just a trivial part of all the evidence.

One big problem is that Flat Earthers have an "explanation" for many observations, but so many of these involve quite unrealistic refraction or perspective.  When challenged, the answer, from one in particular, is "But we don't know how light might behave over these vast distances!".

Other huge problems, such as the easily observed directions of sunrise and sunsets are so often simply glossed over, or explained as above, "We don't know . . ."
And the answer from that same person was that the light from the rising sun curves around so that the sun just appears to rise in precisely the direction that fits in with the spherical totting earth. "Occam's Razor" anyone?

But, there are innumerable observations, many in astronomy, that simply an not be fitted into the idea of a Flat Earth.
The simplest of these is probably the distance to the moon. This has been estimated from antiquity (when they certainly believed in the Globe and a distant sun and moon) with ever improving accuracy. These estimates and later quite accurate measurements using radar or laser methods have been quite consistently homing in on the present value.
Flat earthers just brush this aside with vague ideas of aether density slower light down by completely ridiculous amounts.

No, the only model that fits all the observations is the heliocentric spherical earth.

#### TheTruthIsOnHere

• 943
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2016, 06:32:58 PM »
Please stay on topic Rab...

Ships "floating above the horizon with bits apparently missing" is not the exception, or the rare occurrence, it is the rule.

Have you considered that the composition of the air closer to the water will have a different refractive index than the composition even 20 ft higher. I don't think refraction is something to all of a sudden abandon when it comes to explaining why things look distorted or strange. It's fine when you want to use it to calculate the sun's actual position, as opposed to its apparent position. The "squishing" effect is linear, not exponential as you would expect on an object going over a curve.

Also, as far as the sunset goes, you've shown photographic evidence of large objects like mountains and cities being perceived beyond the apparent horizon, as you've made it clear that the horizon is not the vanishing point. So would you not expect to see an object as massive as the sun still being visible, apparently, beyond the horizon.

#### rabinoz

• 1441
• Just look South at the Stars
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2016, 02:30:26 AM »
Please stay on topic Rab...

Ships "floating above the horizon with bits apparently missing" is not the exception, or the rare occurrence, it is the rule.

Have you considered that the composition of the air closer to the water will have a different refractive index than the composition even 20 ft higher. I don't think refraction is something to all of a sudden abandon when it comes to explaining why things look distorted or strange. It's fine when you want to use it to calculate the sun's actual position, as opposed to its apparent position. The "squishing" effect is linear, not exponential as you would expect on an object going over a curve.

Also, as far as the sunset goes, you've shown photographic evidence of large objects like mountains and cities being perceived beyond the apparent horizon, as you've made it clear that the horizon is not the vanishing point. So would you not expect to see an object as massive as the sun still being visible, apparently, beyond the horizon.
I do not agree that "Ships "floating above the horizon with bits apparently missing" is not the exception, or the rare occurrence, it is the rule."
It is only the rule it photos and videos intended to prop up the Flat Earth explanations.

Have it your own way, but what do you mean by "exponential as you would expect on an object going over a curve." There is no "exponential" anywhere in connection with the sun disappearing behind the horizon.

No, as you say you do "not expect to see an object as massive as the sun still being visible, apparently, beyond the horizon."
but then why does TFES insist that it is!
Quote from: the Wiki
The Setting of the Sun
Although the sun is at all times above the earth's surface, it appears in the morning to ascend from the north-east to the noonday position, and thence to descend and disappear, or set, in the north-west.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Once the lower part of the Sun meets the horizon line, however, it will intersect with the vanishing point and become lost to human perception as the sun's increasingly shallow path creates a tangent beyond the resolution of the human eye. The vanishing point is created when the perspective lines are angled less than one minute of a degree. Hence, this effectively places the vanishing point a finite distance away from the observer.

To me, this clearly states that the sun disappears when it meets "with the vanishing point and become lost to human perception".
And then it says "The vanishing point is created when the perspective lines are angled less than one minute of a degree." Those two statements are quite in conflict as far as I can see.

But this explanation implies that the sun gets progressively small as it moves across the sky to finally set, but the sun does not do that!

The at sunset the sun is supposedly still around 5,000 km above the earth and, while the distance varies, the sun can be around 15,000 km from the observer.
That means that the sun is still around 18° above the horizon. No amount of perspective can alter that.
So, just how does your sun manage to get down to the horizon? - and don't come up with analogies of birds and 'planes, they are nothing like 5,000 km high!

Then there another massive problem for the Flat Earth sun. Just how does in manage to rise almost in the South East here in summer - today it rose at about 117° here, and I'm not far south. But the Flat Earth sun, at the time of sunrise here (4.47 AM EAST), would be way to the North?

And how do you explain sunrise and sunset times being so predictable when the sun disappears due to reasons . . . . . . . .

Carry on guessing!

#### geckothegeek

##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2016, 04:49:21 AM »
Just one of the many problems I have found in flat earth is this question about the horizon.

I may have missed it but I haven't seen these explanations for the horizon on a flat earth :
(1) What is the flat earth definition of the horizon ?
(2) What is the distance from the observer to the horizon on a flat earth ?
(3) How would you estimate this distance on a flat earth ?

Please disregard any abnormal conditions. Just on a normal clear day.

Having been in the U.S. Navy, and like rabinov, I know all the round earth answers..... But I would like to see the answers from flat earth. If they have been answered  before  please repeat them for reference. If you wish, I can repeat the round earth answers to the 3 questions listed above.

#### geckothegeek

##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2016, 05:06:02 AM »
Please stay on topic Rab...

Ships "floating above the horizon with bits apparently missing" is not the exception, or the rare occurrence, it is the rule.

Have you considered that the composition of the air closer to the water will have a different refractive index than the composition even 20 ft higher. I don't think refraction is something to all of a sudden abandon when it comes to explaining why things look distorted or strange. It's fine when you want to use it to calculate the sun's actual position, as opposed to its apparent position. The "squishing" effect is linear, not exponential as you would expect on an object going over a curve.

Also, as far as the sunset goes, you've shown photographic evidence of large objects like mountains and cities being perceived beyond the apparent horizon, as you've made it clear that the horizon is not the vanishing point. So would you not expect to see an object as massive as the sun still being visible, apparently, beyond the horizon.
I do not agree that "Ships "floating above the horizon with bits apparently missing" is not the exception, or the rare occurrence, it is the rule."
It is only the rule it photos and videos intended to prop up the Flat Earth explanations.

Have it your own way, but what do you mean by "exponential as you would expect on an object going over a curve." There is no "exponential" anywhere in connection with the sun disappearing behind the horizon.

No, as you say you do "not expect to see an object as massive as the sun still being visible, apparently, beyond the horizon."
but then why does TFES insist that it is!
Quote from: the Wiki
The Setting of the Sun
Although the sun is at all times above the earth's surface, it appears in the morning to ascend from the north-east to the noonday position, and thence to descend and disappear, or set, in the north-west.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Once the lower part of the Sun meets the horizon line, however, it will intersect with the vanishing point and become lost to human perception as the sun's increasingly shallow path creates a tangent beyond the resolution of the human eye. The vanishing point is created when the perspective lines are angled less than one minute of a degree. Hence, this effectively places the vanishing point a finite distance away from the observer.

To me, this clearly states that the sun disappears when it meets "with the vanishing point and become lost to human perception".
And then it says "The vanishing point is created when the perspective lines are angled less than one minute of a degree." Those two statements are quite in conflict as far as I can see.

But this explanation implies that the sun gets progressively small as it moves across the sky to finally set, but the sun does not do that!

The at sunset the sun is supposedly still around 5,000 km above the earth and, while the distance varies, the sun can be around 15,000 km from the observer.
That means that the sun is still around 18° above the horizon. No amount of perspective can alter that.
So, just how does your sun manage to get down to the horizon? - and don't come up with analogies of birds and 'planes, they are nothing like 5,000 km high!

Then there another massive problem for the Flat Earth sun. Just how does in manage to rise almost in the South East here in summer - today it rose at about 117° here, and I'm not far south. But the Flat Earth sun, at the time of sunrise here (4.47 AM EAST), would be way to the North?

And how do you explain sunrise and sunset times being so predictable when the sun disappears due to reasons . . . . . . . .

Carry on guessing!

If the sun is always at a  constant altitude of  3000 miles above the earth, it would seem there never would be a sunrise or sunset as we see it on the round earth.
We would see a sun always at a constant altitude of  3000 miles above the earth, but just appearing larger or smaller to the observer as it travels in its otbit over the earth at a constant  altitude of 3000 miles on a flat earth.

Here is an idea. Sunrise on a flat earth is when the sun gets large enough to  be seen with the naked eye. Noon is when the sun is directly overhead and largest in size. Sunset is when the sun gets so small it can no longer be seen with the naked eye . On a clear day, how long could you see the sun with a telescope ?
All this assuming the earth was flat, of course.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 06:18:26 AM by geckothegeek »

#### geckothegeek

##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2016, 06:10:33 AM »
After being on this website for several years , I have come to the conclusion that the organizations for which I spent most of my working years were stupid and a waste of the tax payer's money.
Namely the United States Navy and The United States Department Of Transportation - And The United Ststes Federal Aviation Administration in particular.
If they had just realized the earth was flat and had no curvature !
The USN  could have saved a lot of money. They didn't need those tall masts for the crow's nests and radar antennas. The lookouts and the radars could see just as far from the bridge or the flight deck of an aircraft carrier.....If the earth was flat.
The FAA didn't need all those tall towers for those UHF and VHF communications systems and microwave repeater systems, likewise.....If the earth was flat.
Write your Congressmen....We need to cut down on these needless expenses !
To say nothing of all those charts and maps they say they need....using the old excuse that the earth is a globe, of course !
I post this as something you can do every day ! .........If the earth was flat.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 06:15:29 AM by geckothegeek »

#### TheTruthIsOnHere

• 943
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2016, 02:25:24 AM »
I've never read that part of the wiki before... I don't really see the contradiction though.

Your interpretation of that segment is way off though... it doesnt say that the sun linearly gets smaller through the day... it looks like it says when the "lower part" of the sun touches the horizon it begins to then disappear.

@gecko
Explain exactly what entails "seeing something at a constant 3k miles altitude" looks like.

#### geckothegeek

##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2016, 06:24:36 AM »
I've never read that part of the wiki before... I don't really see the contradiction though.

Your interpretation of that segment is way off though... it doesnt say that the sun linearly gets smaller through the day... it looks like it says when the "lower part" of the sun touches the horizon it begins to then disappear.

@gecko
Explain exactly what entails "seeing something at a constant 3k miles altitude" looks like.

I' m not a flat earther so I don't know exactly what it would look like on a flat earth . I think the explanation would be better coming from a flat earther.
BTW, I would appreciate an explanation of the horizon on a flat earth, how far it is from the observer, and how to estimate how far it is from the observer.
The only thing I have read is "The horizon is an indistinct blur which fades away  at an indistinct distance."

Also, I'm just assuming the sun is always 3,000 miles above the earth on a flat earth so it could never touch the horizon, whereever that would be on a flat earth.

I was is in the U.S. Navy, and while I was never a lòokout myself, I know that there is a formula to estimate the distance to the horizon.
My job was as a  radar technician and I have checked this out  with one of the surface search radars on the ship and the radar range agreed with the visual estimate by watching ships on the horizon. Regular lookouts assigned to those duties are trained in these methods  and are very good at estimating distances.. One of the items in their training manuals is to check their estimates of distances to ships, etc. , using the distance to the horizon as a reference and then checking their results wiith a radar operator, which is what I did myself.
Refer also to rabinov's reply #41.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 06:45:51 AM by geckothegeek »

#### rabinoz

• 1441
• Just look South at the Stars
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2016, 08:31:52 AM »
I've never read that part of the wiki before... I don't really see the contradiction though.

Your interpretation of that segment is way off though... it doesnt say that the sun linearly gets smaller through the day... it looks like it says when the "lower part" of the sun touches the horizon it begins to then disappear.
Maybe I'm not precisely answering your objection,  but here goes:

Well, what about the sun being about 5,000 km away when overhead, and having an angular size of about 0.5°,.
As it moves away, still 5,000 km high, it finally reaches around 15,000 km from the viewer at the time of sunset.
Simple rules of perspective would not put the angular size at (5,000/15,000) x 0.5° or now apparently about 0.17°. This reduction it size is gradual, not just at sunset.

But, we know for certain, the the sun''s apparent size does not do that, it stays constant. That is well known, and I have good photographic evidence of it.
This is on "the other site" The Constancy of the Angular size of the Sun « on: August 25, 2016, 02:12:47 PM.

No, the sun does not suddenly shrink when it "touches" the "vanishing point" at the horizon.
You would have seen that Rowbotham put the vanishing point at about 3,000 times the objects size. My rough calculations put that at around 150,000 km!
The sun is nowhere near far away enough at the horizon to "vanish by perspective".

Any photos of sunset clearly show it disappearing from the lower edge. In many cases it still retains a clear circular shape with lower edge gradually disappearing.
Like this:

Time lapse sunset, Johann Mynhardt

#### geckothegeek

##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2016, 04:57:03 AM »

As the height of the observer increases, so does the line of sight of the observer... the perceived distance to the horizon is an abstract fluid thing. You will see further, but still perceive a place where the ground and the sky meet, even though we know that this doesn't happen.

Notice how in the second image (representing the flat earth), the location of the horizon is completely arbitrary? Based on that picture, where is the horizon?

Quote
The Earth curving away from you isn't the reason your vision is limited. Your eyes aren't strong enough to see that far away, if you believe the Earth to just be a massive ball that only looks flat because it is so big, that is.

Try drawing your diagram to any kind of scale to see just how much higher you would have to be to see any kind of meaningful distance beyond that curving away "horizon." It's on par with the having to be 50,000 feet in the air to sorta, kinda, see the curvature of the earth.

I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make. It has been demonstrated numerous times on this site that the horizon is where it should be based on a to-scale version of the top diagram.

Getting back, to my original questi
I've never read that part of the wiki before... I don't really see the contradiction though.

Your interpretation of that segment is way off though... it doesnt say that the sun linearly gets smaller through the day... it looks like it says when the "lower part" of the sun touches the horizon it begins to then disappear.
Maybe I'm not precisely answering your objection,  but here goes:

Well, what about the sun being about 5,000 km away when overhead, and having an angular size of about 0.5°,.
As it moves away, still 5,000 km high, it finally reaches around 15,000 km from the viewer at the time of sunset.
Simple rules of perspective would not put the angular size at (5,000/15,000) x 0.5° or now apparently about 0.17°. This reduction it size is gradual, not just at sunset.

But, we know for certain, the the sun''s apparent size does not do that, it stays constant. That is well known, and I have good photographic evidence of it.
This is on "the other site" The Constancy of the Angular size of the Sun « on: August 25, 2016, 02:12:47 PM.

No, the sun does not suddenly shrink when it "touches" the "vanishing point" at the horizon.
You would have seen that Rowbotham put the vanishing point at about 3,000 times the objects size. My rough calculations put that at around 150,000 km!
The sun is nowhere near far away enough at the horizon to "vanish by perspective".

Any photos of sunset clearly show it disappearing from the lower edge. In many cases it still retains a clear circular shape with lower edge gradually disappearing.
Like this:

Time lapse sunset, Johann Mynhardt

Getting back to my original questions.:

Yes ! Where is the horizon on a flat earth ?
Or what is the flat earth definition of the horizon on a flat earth ?
And how would you estimate the distance to the horizon on a flat earth ?

Any Navy Lookout can give you answers for those questions on a globe earth. At least from my limited Naval Service, I never met any flat earth lookouts in the U.S. Navy.

#### Algebraist

• 12
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2016, 09:12:07 PM »
The way the sun remains the same size wherever you see it in the sky and slips below the horizon like that shows it is a massively long way from the earth. Such that it's reasonable to treat the rays as parallel. There are some refraction effects as the sun gets close to the horizon but they are simply what's cause those lovely sunset colours and effects we can all see. The thing that is certainly not seen is the sun shrinking in size as the sun gets further away because that is simply not happening. While other objects e.g. Mountains are getting smaller when further away, the sun isn't.
The idea that somehow atmospheric refraction causes magnification of the sun and somehow by exactly the right amount to keep it the same visible size is totallly ludicrous. I should mention no evidence or suggestion that flying objects are magnified with distance!

#### rabinoz

• 1441
• Just look South at the Stars
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2016, 11:52:51 PM »
The way the sun remains the same size wherever you see it in the sky and slips below the horizon like that shows it is a massively long way from the earth. Such that it's reasonable to treat the rays as parallel. There are some refraction effects as the sun gets close to the horizon but they are simply what's cause those lovely sunset colours and effects we can all see. The thing that is certainly not seen is the sun shrinking in size as the sun gets further away because that is simply not happening. While other objects e.g. Mountains are getting smaller when further away, the sun isn't.
The idea that somehow atmospheric refraction causes magnification of the sun and somehow by exactly the right amount to keep it the same visible size is totallly ludicrous. I should mention no evidence or suggestion that flying objects are magnified with distance!
But haven't you forgotten the  irrefutably  logical explanation given in "the Wiki"?
Quote from: the Wiki
Magnification and Shrinking
Q: If the sun is disappearing to perspective, shouldn't it get smaller as it recedes?
A: The sun remains the same size as it recedes into the distance due to a known magnification effect caused by the intense rays of light passing through the strata of the atmolayer.

From Chapter 10 of the book Earth Not a Globe we read:

Quote
"IT is well known that when a light of any kind shines through a dense medium it appears larger, or magnified, at a given distance than when it is seen through a lighter medium. This is more remarkable when the medium holds aqueous particles or vapour in solution, as in a damp or foggy atmosphere. Anyone may be satisfied of this by standing within a few yards of an ordinary street lamp, and noticing the size of the flame; on going away to many times the distance, the light upon the atmosphere will appear considerably larger. This phenomenon may be noticed, to a greater or less degree, at all times; but when the air is moist and vapoury it is more intense. It is evident that at sunrise, and at sunset, the sun's light must shine through a greater length of atmospheric air than at mid-day; besides which, the air near the earth is both more dense, and holds more watery particles in solution, than the higher strata through which the sun shines at noonday; and hence the light must be dilated or magnified, as well as modified in colour."
—"Earth Not a Globe", Samuel Birley Rowbotham
I do so love the  "known magnification effect caused by the intense rays of light" bit  .And does this "intense rays of light" explanation apply to the  moon and constellations or stars as well  , which also do not change size or shape as the appear to move across the sky.

Yes all the little things "Things You Can Do Everyday!" and every night, that make the existing flat model quite untenable! - just go outside, day or night and observe the heavens.

#### Boots

• 794
• ---- Cogito, ergo sum. ---- -Descartes
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2016, 12:22:09 AM »
Yes all the little things "Things You Can Do Everyday!" and every night, that make the existing flat model quite untenable! - just go outside, day or night and observe the heavens.

Learning more about our world through a zetetic approach! Awesome!
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

#### Algebraist

• 12
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2016, 08:38:12 AM »
Yes as recognised the passage through the atmosphere can cause some light to be diffracted, that causes light to be more diffuse and shifted in the colour spectrum. Thus the various effects seen at sunset when light must travel further through the atmosphere and through more water vapour. However as you can observe in a sunset you can still see the disc of the sun in the centre, this hasn't been magnified, just it's got more diffuse around the edges and more reddish light spread out around it. Also the amount of diffuse light and colour change depends on atmospheric conditions, particularly how much water vapour. This isn't an effect that explains how we see the same size and even colour sun as a distinct disk move across across the sky on a clear day. Remaining the same size as it dips towards the horizon.

#### Algebraist

• 12
##### Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2016, 08:41:38 AM »
Yes learning about the world by the Zetetic approach can be awesome. It's good to learn by your own observations sometimes rather than just books!

By the simple observations that.
1. The sun is a very long way away compared to the size of the earth, such that sunlight beams can be considered as parallel (unless you measure very accurately) - as determined by the observations discussed in the posts above (so I won't repeat)
2. On some parts of the earth it's night while it's day on other parts it's day ( I've personally verified that in my travels, and telephone conversations with my relatives in New Zealand!)

These two scenarios cannot both be represented by a flat earth. The sun has to dip down below the level of the earth from the observer view point for it to set and darkness fall. You can observe it doing that anyway so it's not exactly a biggy!

But if the earth is flat and the sun a very long way away, such that beams are effect parallel, then the angle of the sun in the sky will have to basically be virtually the same at all points on the earth. This it totally incompatible with darkness being a different times across the earth, particularly being at opposite times in the north vs south "hemispheres"

I should note that a mad bendy light theory can't help here because, the observation that "the sun is the same size wherever you view in the sky and light beams are therefore  virtually parallel" would obviously get distorted if light bends. Light would have to bend massively to try to replicate anything like the dual obversations given above and effectively invalidate the observation itself (light can't both bend like that and be parallel).
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 12:49:27 PM by Algebraist »