Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2016, 09:07:01 AM »
You must be ok with kid diddling then Dave. Because anyone that looks at this objectively should at least think it's weird enough to where you wouldn't let your kid go there.
Wow... Telling me how I should see the data and what conclusions I shoukd draw.  Fun. 


Of course, even if I believed everything, it woukd still be save for my child to go there.  Why, you ask?  Because the accusations are about an underground child sex ring, not children being taken during business hours and abused in a basement that doesn't exist.


Tell me, how many children have been reported missing from comet ping pong?  What did that lone gunman find?

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Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2016, 12:43:56 PM »
Agreed on all points. But I think there is slightly more to it than just the scale. The ability to target each person individually with entertainment and news that is tailored to their specific tastes is somewhat new. Before, you knew any story that comes from Channel Such-and-Such is probably left-biased. Any Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd: chain email from Aunt MildlyRacist is going to have racist overtones. But now many people get a significant portion of their entertainment and news from facebook. Much of which is tailored to your specific user profile, and seems to just pop up from nowhere. Everyone ends up in their own little self-reinforcing bubble of opinion, and it can be difficult to notice that it is happening.
Yes, that's fair enough. I guess I'd still describe it as "scale" (I think people always filtered the content they view to match their prejudices, it's just much easier now), but that sounds more like a difference in how we describe the phenomenon rather than how we perceive it.

tbh I'm more worried about the response to this issue than the issue itself. In the wake of Trump's victory, many major social media sites promised to crack down on certain types of content. I'm not entirely convinced that Faceless Corporation X will always be unanimous in determining what's true and what isn't. Personally, I'd be much more in favour of protecting fake news under the principle of net neutrality (yeah, I'm stretching the term a bit, but I'm sure you see what I mean) and instead encourage mainstream media to deliver content of much higher quality. If we assume that the decline of mainstream media is a major factor in all this, then hopefully fixing MSM would go some way towards alleviating the problem. Restricting access to alternatives (bullshit as they may be) poses too many risks.
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Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2016, 04:14:29 PM »
Anyone without any concern whatsoever about kids being abused has to at least be a sociopath, more likely a psychopath.

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Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2016, 04:17:06 PM »
Anyone without any concern whatsoever about kids being abused has to at least be a sociopath, more likely a psychopath.

How does thinking a painting is not the same as reality qualify as not being concerned? How is not engaging in a witch hunt the same as being apathetic?
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Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2016, 06:09:47 PM »
Anyone without any concern whatsoever about kids being abused has to at least be a sociopath, more likely a psychopath.

Won't anyone think of the children???

Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2016, 06:13:56 PM »
Anyone without any concern whatsoever about kids being abused has to at least be a sociopath, more likely a psychopath.

How does thinking a painting is not the same as reality qualify as not being concerned? How is not engaging in a witch hunt the same as being apathetic?

I almost just had an embolism trying to read that. I'm not asking for a witch hunt, I'm asking for an investigation. And no, I don't know which, if any agencies have seriously investigated this matter. But if James Comey has shown my anything, it's that there is very little interest in prosecuting the rich and powerful either way. 

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Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2016, 06:34:11 PM »
Anyone without any concern whatsoever about kids being abused has to at least be a sociopath, more likely a psychopath.

How does thinking a painting is not the same as reality qualify as not being concerned? How is not engaging in a witch hunt the same as being apathetic?

I almost just had an embolism trying to read that. I'm not asking for a witch hunt, I'm asking for an investigation. And no, I don't know which, if any agencies have seriously investigated this matter. But if James Comey has shown my anything, it's that there is very little interest in prosecuting the rich and powerful either way.

An investigation based on terrible evidence is a witch hunt.
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Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2016, 06:51:54 PM »
Quote from: TheTruthIsOnHere link=topic=5549.msg108332#msg108332
I'm asking for an investigation. And no, I don't know which, if any agencies have seriously investigated this matter.


You answer the first line with the second yet don't seem to realize it.

Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2016, 07:42:08 PM »
Anyone without any concern whatsoever about kids being abused has to at least be a sociopath, more likely a psychopath.

How does thinking a painting is not the same as reality qualify as not being concerned? How is not engaging in a witch hunt the same as being apathetic?

I almost just had an embolism trying to read that. I'm not asking for a witch hunt, I'm asking for an investigation. And no, I don't know which, if any agencies have seriously investigated this matter. But if James Comey has shown my anything, it's that there is very little interest in prosecuting the rich and powerful either way.

An investigation based on terrible evidence is a witch hunt.

Investigations are meant to discover more evidence. At this point you need to find probable cause. That's generally how things work in America.

Funny though, a lot of people in here championing the right to privacy and protection under the constitution are the same ones who want to lock people up for hate speech and further restrict guns.

Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2016, 08:05:41 PM »
Investigations are meant to discover more evidence. At this point you need to find probable cause. That's generally how things work in America.
.... Aren't you saying that they should already have probable cause?

Regardless, step one in any investigation is to determine if a crime has been committed.  You can't, for example, investigate someone for murder until you know someone was murdered.  Then you need to link that person to the crime.

Quote
Funny though, a lot of people in here championing the right to privacy and protection under the constitution are the same ones who want to lock people up for hate speech and further restrict guns.
Has anyone here actually said "We should lock up Donald Trump and his supporters?"  I mean, HE (and his supporters) said we should lock up Hillary Clinton but I don't know of any wide spread message of the reverse being true.

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Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2016, 08:47:33 PM »
And who wants to lock people up for hate speech?  I think we're pretty unanimous on that being stupid.

Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2016, 10:47:32 PM »
Threatening retribution for "hate speech" is just one of many tactics to limit our 1st amendment. Labeling any organization that doesn't vomit an AP or Reuters script as "fake news" is just another tactic in the multi-faceted attack on our liberties.

@Dave... You should do some research into human and child trafficking and see how hard it is for people to escape that particularly evil form of slavery. So yes, I believe there is a ton of circumstance, that in my mind illustrate this as probable, thankfully we have a higher standard in our justice system as what is considered probable cause. So you need a survivor to speak up about it, unfortunately, for whatever strange reason (the offenders writing the laws?), child sexual abuse seems to have a relatively short statute of limitations. If only these people had access to a pig farm, would be a great place to destroy any evidence as well.

Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2016, 11:03:41 PM »
Agreed on all points. But I think there is slightly more to it than just the scale. The ability to target each person individually with entertainment and news that is tailored to their specific tastes is somewhat new. Before, you knew any story that comes from Channel Such-and-Such is probably left-biased. Any Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd: chain email from Aunt MildlyRacist is going to have racist overtones. But now many people get a significant portion of their entertainment and news from facebook. Much of which is tailored to your specific user profile, and seems to just pop up from nowhere. Everyone ends up in their own little self-reinforcing bubble of opinion, and it can be difficult to notice that it is happening.
Yes, that's fair enough. I guess I'd still describe it as "scale" (I think people always filtered the content they view to match their prejudices, it's just much easier now), but that sounds more like a difference in how we describe the phenomenon rather than how we perceive it.

tbh I'm more worried about the response to this issue than the issue itself. In the wake of Trump's victory, many major social media sites promised to crack down on certain types of content. I'm not entirely convinced that Faceless Corporation X will always be unanimous in determining what's true and what isn't. Personally, I'd be much more in favour of protecting fake news under the principle of net neutrality (yeah, I'm stretching the term a bit, but I'm sure you see what I mean) and instead encourage mainstream media to deliver content of much higher quality. If we assume that the decline of mainstream media is a major factor in all this, then hopefully fixing MSM would go some way towards alleviating the problem. Restricting access to alternatives (bullshit as they may be) poses too many risks.

Yep. The solution needs to come from public awareness/education and media accountability, rather than new laws. The overreaction is possibly more dangerous than the original problem. I also wonder if mainstream media and journalism are really declining. It has always been rather bad, but the awareness of how bad it is has increased. Awareness is the first step in fixing it for both mainstream and social media. I have no idea what the second step is though  :-\

Threatening retribution for "hate speech" is just one of many tactics to limit our 1st amendment. Labeling any organization that doesn't vomit an AP or Reuters script as "fake news" is just another tactic in the multi-faceted attack on our liberties.

Nobody here has used either of those tactics though. No one is labelling it fake news just because it didn't came from a mainstream source. It is being labelled fake news because the evidence does not back up the accusations being made. It's as simple as that.

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Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2016, 12:01:23 AM »
Threatening retribution for "hate speech" is just one of many tactics to limit our 1st amendment. Labeling any organization that doesn't vomit an AP or Reuters script as "fake news" is just another tactic in the multi-faceted attack on our liberties.

Don't be a baby. Criticizing a position is perfectly aligned with liberal free speech. If you like you could defend the legitimacy of your position instead of hiding behind outrage.

Quote
@Dave... You should do some research into human and child trafficking and see how hard it is for people to escape that particularly evil form of slavery. So yes, I believe there is a ton of circumstance, that in my mind illustrate this as probable, thankfully we have a higher standard in our justice system as what is considered probable cause. So you need a survivor to speak up about it, unfortunately, for whatever strange reason (the offenders writing the laws?), child sexual abuse seems to have a relatively short statute of limitations. If only these people had access to a pig farm, would be a great place to destroy any evidence as well.

Human trafficking is insidious therefore probable cause. lol!
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Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2016, 01:48:24 AM »
Investigations are meant to discover more evidence.

i don't think that anyone disagrees with you that child slavery is abhorrent and should be investigated, but it's a question of who does the investigating and on what grounds.

private citizens can investigate pizzagate as much as they like.  they're bound only by privacy laws.  journalists and their employers have an especially great incentives to expose such a scheme: prizes, money, and fame.

police require cause to violate a citizens' privacy rights.  this is a good thing.  we should not allow the police to violate a citizen's right to due process because they belong to the 'wrong' political party, associate with the 'wrong' people, or like the 'wrong' art.  of course the police should investigate child molesters.  but they shouldn't do it based on what art you like and the names you mention in your emails.  that's tyranny. 

it's difficult to imagine that children are being abducted and raped as sex slaves in a family pizza restaurant without some direct evidence of the crime.  police investigate missing children and shit like that.  it's a popular restaurant in a busy part of town, not some seedy, back-alley dive bar.
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Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2016, 01:04:48 PM »
I also wonder if mainstream media and journalism are really declining.
Gut feeling tells me it is declining, mostly through entryism of media like HuffPo and Breitbart. They're not quite fake news, but their journalistic standards are appalling, and yet they get to enjoy mainstream media status. "Real" MSM then followed in their tracks to keep up with shifting audiences. Heck, even MTV is partisan these days.

I think it is that shift in standards that ultimately let people to convince themselves of views like "reality has a well-known liberal bias" (in a genuine way, not just as a satirical quip from Colbert). Polarising ideas sell, and in the current state of MSM not much else matters. In other words, this is all about ethics in journalism.

It has always been rather bad, but the awareness of how bad it is has increased. Awareness is the first step in fixing it for both mainstream and social media. I have no idea what the second step is though  :-\
That's a tough one. Either the "old" or "new" media need to lead the charge in fixing this mess. The push against echo chambers is slowly becoming a non-partisan issue (or so I'd gather from people like Nicholas Kristof discussing it).

I think our best bet is hoping that after a bit of infighting in the new media crowd, sensible alternatives will eventually start surfacing and gaining popularity.
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Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2016, 01:29:39 PM »
I also wonder if mainstream media and journalism are really declining.
Gut feeling tells me it is declining, mostly through entryism of media like HuffPo and Breitbart. They're not quite fake news, but their journalistic standards are appalling, and yet they get to enjoy mainstream media status. "Real" MSM then followed in their tracks to keep up with shifting audiences. Heck, even MTV is partisan these days.

I think it is that shift in standards that ultimately let people to convince themselves of views like "reality has a well-known liberal bias" (in a genuine way, not just as a satirical quip from Colbert). Polarising ideas sell, and in the current state of MSM not much else matters. In other words, this is all about ethics in journalism.

It has always been rather bad, but the awareness of how bad it is has increased. Awareness is the first step in fixing it for both mainstream and social media. I have no idea what the second step is though  :-\
That's a tough one. Either the "old" or "new" media need to lead the charge in fixing this mess. The push against echo chambers is slowly becoming a non-partisan issue (or so I'd gather from people like Nicholas Kristof discussing it).

I think our best bet is hoping that after a bit of infighting in the new media crowd, sensible alternatives will eventually start surfacing and gaining popularity.
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The problem with fixing itself is the audience itself.  MSM will go where the money/audience is.  And that audience likes to be told certain things in certain ways.  Changing that is very hard.  Like "Everything you know is wrong.  Accept that" hard.  And even if MSM has a sudden and complete reversal of policy and is 100% purely ethical, they'll just lose audience and become fringe while the other, sensational places will become the new MSM.

We don't want to be told the truth, we just want to be validated.

Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2016, 03:55:08 PM »
We don't want to be told the truth, we just want to be validated.

I want to be told the truth.

I don't think the media will get better because I think it is tightly controlled. The polarization was no accident. If all of a sudden there was true free market ideology applied to the media I don't think it would work, because Americans are already too divided.

I don't have any faith that all of a sudden we will have a Mainstream Media that operates as an unbiased bastion of truth as opposed to the Fourth Estate. No matter how much money you can make selling ads, controlling people's minds is so much more valuable.

Don't be a baby. Criticizing a position is perfectly aligned with liberal free speech. If you like you could defend the legitimacy of your position instead of hiding behind outrage.

I don't understand what you mean when you say criticizing a position/liberal free speech part...

I'm talking about the silencing of people who don't agree with the mainstream. They might think that God Hates Fags or whatever... but I respect their right to be a assholes. Also I'm talking about the people who go online and use their "outrage" (self-righteous indignation and undeservingly-assumed moral highground) to cause people to lose their jobs, friends, essentially their livelihoods, over their opinions. That is a very slippery slope, and within a few decades you will have a population afraid to make even the most mundane of statements for fear of retribution.

I'm all for criticizing people, and each other over opinions, because it at least creates a dialogue.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 04:20:52 PM by TheTruthIsOnHere »

Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2016, 05:46:01 PM »
We don't want to be told the truth, we just want to be validated.

I want to be told the truth.
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Like seriously, you can't.  You think you can but when the truth comes by you brush it off as lies and go elsewhere.  If it's not YOUR truth, you don't wanna hear it.

Quote
I don't think the media will get better because I think it is tightly controlled. The polarization was no accident. If all of a sudden there was true free market ideology applied to the media I don't think it would work, because Americans are already too divided.
Yes, it's called marketing.

Quote
I don't have any faith that all of a sudden we will have a Mainstream Media that operates as an unbiased bastion of truth as opposed to the Fourth Estate. No matter how much money you can make selling ads, controlling people's minds is so much more valuable.
This is what Marketing and Advertisements do.  The MSM isn't some global conspiracy to control people's minds, it's just a bunch of companies who want to get people to watch their news segments for the advertisement dollars.  Cause there's no problem that can't be dealt with by having enough money.

Quote

I don't understand what you mean when you say criticizing a position/liberal free speech part...

I'm talking about the silencing of people who don't agree with the mainstream. They might think that God Hates Fags or whatever... but I respect their right to be a assholes. Also I'm talking about the people who go online and use their "outrage" (self-righteous indignation and undeservingly-assumed moral highground) to cause people to lose their jobs, friends, essentially their livelihoods, over their opinions. That is a very slippery slope, and within a few decades you will have a population afraid to make even the most mundane of statements for fear of retribution.

I'm all for criticizing people, and each other over opinions, because it at least creates a dialogue.
So... what you're saying is you disapprove of Donald Trump's tweets when he calls out someone as well as anyone who sends death threats to people without proof of guilt (or really any reason at all)?

Re: Fake news makes real news
« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2016, 05:54:11 PM »
...

I feel like you're not understanding what I'm writing at all.