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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12680 on: March 29, 2025, 02:15:51 AM »
The espionage act.  Which has clear rules stating that disseminating national security information to people not authorized to have it, is a crime if it's done willingly or out of gross negligence

Your "Espionage Act" angle is a stretch. The law targets willful or grossly negligent leaks of info that harms or intends to harm national security. Where's the harm here? You've got none. Just wild speculation. But again, you guys are just citing yourself as an authority when you are not.

CIA Director Ratcliffe told Congress this wasn't a breach of classified info, and he'd know better than you. The only people on the side of determining that this was classified info are journalists and leftist Democrat reps who have backgrounds like "former American businessman". You guys have literally nothing here. Secrecy experts were interviewed, and have shut your armchair general narrative down cold.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12681 on: March 29, 2025, 02:54:38 AM »
Yes, the Trump administration are all agreed that the Trump administration has done nothing wrong, and never will. Hey, if we can't trust the people who are themselves being accused of recklessness and incompetence to assure us that actually they're not reckless and incompetent at all, who can we trust?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12682 on: March 29, 2025, 03:03:59 AM »
Yes, the Trump administration are all agreed that the Trump administration has done nothing wrong, and never will. Hey, if we can't trust the people who are themselves being accused of recklessness and incompetence to assure us that actually they're not reckless and incompetent at all, who can we trust?

Lying in a Congressional testimony is illegal. If they were blatantly lying to Congress, where are the prosecutions?

If what you are saying is true, it should be easy to get actual experts who can tell us that your version of secrecy and classified info is true and send that lying CIA Director away to jail, or at least severely punished. From the sounds of it, your team can infract legal punishment on multiple Heads of Intelligence who have testified the lie that you are wrong about this. This should be a slam dunk.

This will not happen, of course, as you are in the wrong here, have no experts to cite. You are continuing this dumb fantasy LARP which relies on the audience assuming that non-experts are experts in military secrecy. Opposite of your fantasy, experts on military secrecy have actually been interviewed on this and say that you are incorrect.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2025, 03:35:08 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12683 on: March 29, 2025, 03:44:10 AM »
Numerous articles discussing this scandal have had experts on the subject weigh in and say that yes, these details are absolutely classified:

https://reason.com/2025/03/27/pete-hegseth-says-the-signal-chat-had-no-classified-information-how-is-that-possible/

https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/26/politics/the-atlantic-publishes-signal-messages-yemen-strike/index.html

https://www.npr.org/2025/03/27/nx-s1-5341458/pete-hegseth-signal-war-plans

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2025/03/26/obviously-classified-experts-say-hegseth-chat-leaks-invited-danger/

Some of their sources are being kept confidential because they want to avoid adverse consequences. No, it doesn't mean that these journalists just made them up. It just means that they don't want them being promptly retaliated upon by Trump. Also, if you're going to call politicians like Ratcliffe, Gabbard, and Hegseth (who wasn't even a politician, but a Fox News talking head) whom Trump has simply appointed to head up these agencies "experts," than it's only fair that you do the same for the many members of Congress, Republican and Democratic, serving on related committees who have been calling for resignations and/or investigations and take their perspective into account as well.

As for prosecuting, who would even try to initiate a prosecution, let alone carry it through? The Department of Justice answers to Trump. He was coy in his last term in his efforts to lean on prosecutors to protect the people he didn't want touched. He'll be direct this term and promptly fire any federal prosecutor who does something he doesn't approve of, and people like you will defend him with this same might-makes-right logic: "Trump is the head of the executive branch and therefore the head of law enforcement. If he says that someone hasn't broken the law, then they haven't broken the law."

Also, you keep using the term "LARP." I feel like you don't actually know what it means. It really isn't applicable to this discussion, or many discussions on the Internet at all, for that matter. Are you emulating Q? Because I remember Q kept incorrectly using that term as well.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2025, 10:49:47 PM by honk »
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Offline AATW

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12684 on: March 29, 2025, 09:01:01 AM »
Yes, the Trump administration are all agreed that the Trump administration has done nothing wrong, and never will.
That’s not even true.
They have admitted that this was an almighty cock up. Waltz has said he takes full responsibility and that it was embarrassing

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg12ewv7xyo.amp

What’s he taking responsibility for and why is this embarrassing if they’ve done nothing wrong?

The only person pretending that this is all fine is Tom. He doesn’t believe that, so there’s no point in engaging with him. He treats this place as a debating society. Which is sort of fine on issues where there are genuinely two sides. This isn’t one. There’s no point “debating” with someone who is claiming up is down and wet is dry.

The whole narrative from the White House has been hilarious. Although given that these are some of the people in charge of the most powerful nation on earth it’s a little alarming.

First it was “he’s lying”
So he said words to the effect of “oh, so are you ok with me publishing the whole chat then?”
And they were like “rather you didn’t”.
After much deliberation he decided to publish anyway, based on the fact they were still calling him a liar and the mission had already happened.
All they’re doing now is attacking him and The Atlantic to deflect from what actually happened here.

You can debate whether they should be using Signal for this sort of thing. I’d say “no” given it’s not approved for this use, and it deletes messages.

You can debate whether anything was said which genuinely jeopardised the mission. I’d say “possibly”. But it’s certainly chat they didn’t intend to come in to the public domain.

What cannot be debated or excused is the astonishing fuck up of accidentally inviting a journalist - and one hostile to the Trump administration - into the chat. And then proceeding to chat about a live mission, at no point did anyone notice he was in there. I mean holy shit! It speaks to a complete lack of competence and seriousness at the highest levels of US government.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2025, 10:56:18 AM by AATW »
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12685 on: March 29, 2025, 01:03:01 PM »
Numerous articles discussing this scandal have had experts on the subject weigh in and say that yes, these details are absolutely classified:

https://reason.com/2025/03/27/pete-hegseth-says-the-signal-chat-had-no-classified-information-how-is-that-possible/

https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/26/politics/the-atlantic-publishes-signal-messages-yemen-strike/index.html

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pete-hegseth-says-signal-chat-194052994.html

https://www.npr.org/2025/03/27/nx-s1-5341458/pete-hegseth-signal-war-plans

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2025/03/26/obviously-classified-experts-say-hegseth-chat-leaks-invited-danger/

Some of their sources are being kept confidential because they want to avoid adverse consequences. No, it doesn't mean that these journalists just made them up. It just means that they don't want them being promptly retaliated upon by Trump. Also, if you're going to call politicians like Ratcliffe, Gabbard, and Hegseth (who wasn't even a politician, but a Fox News talking head) whom Trump has simply appointed to head up these agencies "experts," than it's only fair that you do the same for the many members of Congress, Republican and Democratic, serving on related committees who have been calling for resignations and/or investigations and take their perspective into account as well.

As for prosecuting, who would even try to initiate a prosecution, let alone try to carry it through? The Department of Justice answer to Trump. He was coy in his last term in his efforts to lean on prosecutors to protect the people he didn't want touched. He'll be direct this term and promptly fire any federal prosecutor who does something he doesn't approve of, and people like you will defend him with this same might-makes-right logic: "Trump is the head of the executive branch and therefore the head of law enforcement. If he says that someone hasn't broken the law, then they haven't broken the law."

In all of that I just see leftist references to anonymous sources and random people with military experience as a deployed fighter who say it's classified, but you may as well be querying a homeless veteran. An expert in secrecy would be someone with expertise in understanding and communicating military information outside of the military, which none of those people cite.

The people with comparable experience have been queried on the procedure for us, which is exactly as I've stated on previous pages:

https://www.texastribune.org/2025/03/25/texas-cia-director-group-chat/

    Ratcliffe told the hearing that he did not share any classified information in the group chat and that he has not participated in a group chat that included classified material. "To be clear, I haven’t participated in any Signal group messaging that relates to any classified information," Ratcliffe said.

    In defending the category of the material that was shared, Ratcliffe seemed to be focusing on the actions of Hegseth, the Pentagon chief. “The Secretary of Defense is the original classification authority," Ratcliffe said, "and my understanding is that um his comments are that any information that he shared was not classified.”

The Secretary of Defense is second in command of the military and is the person who classifies information like this. So no, it's not classified by default. Plenty of previous presidents and defense secretaries and high ranking officials have choreographed future and ongoing war efforts, with full right to share those details from their classification authority.

Quote from: honk
Also, you keep using the term "LARP." I feel like you don't actually know what it means. It really isn't applicable to this discussion, or many discussions on the Internet at all, for that matter.

Are you really here clutching your pearls over the Houthi and this vague communicated attack information without a specific target?

Seriously, think about what you are doing. You are taking up a position and essentially pretending and role playing in attempt to score a point against the side you don't like. We all know that you and the few people here arguing it are not seriously taking up the position of "But.. but what about national security and the safety of the troops? :( :(" over this. You are using this as an attempted attack vector, because after this election you don't really have much left. You are not clutching your pearls in worry, as you and the leftists here have implied. This is just your normal liberal LARPing.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2025, 05:52:12 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12686 on: March 29, 2025, 01:43:27 PM »
In their defense, signal only shows participants if you go into the channel properties.  They won't show up in the chat screen.  And if he never types, they'd never notice.  But that's one reason why it's insecure: no quick and passive way to see all participants.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12687 on: March 29, 2025, 01:45:19 PM »
Tom keeps appealing to authority and projecting.  It's sad.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

Re: Trump
« Reply #12688 on: March 29, 2025, 02:13:58 PM »
Pete Hegseth weighed the risks and used an encrypted, government-approved app to accidentally send confidential, sensitive information to a complete stranger, and then sent a couple of people to congress to lie about it

it really doesn't matter how many times you use the word larping — you're the only person who doesn't see this as problematic.
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Offline markjo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12689 on: March 29, 2025, 03:13:01 PM »
Your "Espionage Act" angle is a stretch. The law targets willful or grossly negligent leaks of info that harms or intends to harm national security. Where's the harm here? You've got none.
Actual harm doesn't matter.  Through gross negligence, sensitive military information was disseminated to someone who was not authorized to receive it.  It's as simple as that.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12690 on: March 29, 2025, 06:16:34 PM »
https://www.npr.org/sections/goats-and-soda/2025/03/28/g-s1-56968/usaid-terminates-nearly-all-its-remaining-employees

So now we know why they're doing this:
They want to put all AID into the hands of the State Department, which is directly under The President.  So HE and ONLY HE can decide who gets how much money.  Don't play ball?  That lifesaving food aid is now gone. 

Oh, you're a farmer who won't vote for Trump?  No help for you.
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Offline markjo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12691 on: March 29, 2025, 06:45:37 PM »
Don't play ball?  That lifesaving food aid is now gone.
Sadly, much of that lifesaving food aid is confiscated by warlords and never makes it to the people who need it the most anyway.
https://www.worldhunger.org/articles/global/armedconflict/anderson.htm
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12692 on: March 30, 2025, 08:14:28 PM »
https://www.npr.org/2025/03/29/nx-s1-5344469/fcc-disney-dei-changes-abc

Remember folks: A private company should have the power to hire as they wish.
Unless you pissed off Trump by trying to be inclusive or diverse or equal... then you're evil and need to go down.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12693 on: March 30, 2025, 10:14:34 PM »
Pete Hegseth weighed the risks and used an encrypted, government-approved app to accidentally send confidential, sensitive information to a complete stranger, and then sent a couple of people to congress to lie about it

it really doesn't matter how many times you use the word larping — you're the only person who doesn't see this as problematic.

It's only problematic to the desperate anti-trump leftists and liberal media hype meisters. The average people see through this. Trump's approval rating  has increased during the incident, suggesting that this has not moved the dial. See this new article from Townhall:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2025/03/29/the-one-thing-to-keep-in-mind-about-the-latest-story-involving-pete-hegseth-n2654693

Quote from: Townhall
There is a plot to get rid of Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth. The Signal story didn’t do damage. Trump’s approval rating increased, which even CNN had to reveal, and Hegseth still runs the Pentagon.

Townhall ends the article by discussing the new anonymous source allegations that Pete Hegseth's wife was present during meetings with foreign officials, and reminds us that Trump's reign is the successor to this trash:

Quote from: Townhall
Second, if we’re going to freak out over this, true or not, let’s not forget that Hunter Biden reportedly ran the White House after Joe’s disastrous debate on CNN in June last year, and he also sat in on meetings without a security clearance.

If the public reads these headlines without further consideration and simply accepts the claims as fact, Trump's administration still comes out ahead. The bar is already set incredibly low. You will need something truly bombastic to bring Trump and his administration down. Even if you had a valid criticism here, this simply isn't going to do it.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2025, 11:08:57 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12694 on: March 30, 2025, 11:12:02 PM »
In all of that I just see leftist references to anonymous sources and random people with military experience as a deployed fighter who say it's classified, but you may as well be querying a homeless veteran.

Anonymous, or, to use the term that you've stressed in the past, confidential sources are a critical part of journalism and have been for centuries. You yourself have accepted this and cited news articles that relied on anonymous sources in the past, and I've no doubt that you'll do so in the future. To casually accuse mainstream news organizations of making up or misrepresenting their sources - a very serious allegation that these organizations investigate thoroughly and usually get to the bottom of quickly - for no better reason than you don't agree with what they're saying is a very weak argument. I can't stop you from making it, but it's a dubious line of attack. I wouldn't even accuse conservative organizations like Fox or the NYP of fabricating or misrepresenting anonymous sources.

Quote
An expert in secrecy would be someone with expertise in understanding and communicating military information outside of the military, which none of those people cite.

The people with comparable experience have been queried on the procedure for us, which is exactly as I've stated on previous pages:

https://www.texastribune.org/2025/03/25/texas-cia-director-group-chat/

    Ratcliffe told the hearing that he did not share any classified information in the group chat and that he has not participated in a group chat that included classified material. "To be clear, I haven’t participated in any Signal group messaging that relates to any classified information," Ratcliffe said.

    In defending the category of the material that was shared, Ratcliffe seemed to be focusing on the actions of Hegseth, the Pentagon chief. “The Secretary of Defense is the original classification authority," Ratcliffe said, "and my understanding is that um his comments are that any information that he shared was not classified.”

I see you ignored a key part of my post, so I'll rephrase. Ratcliffe is not an expert on intelligence or military matters. He's a politician and a former prosecutor with a long history of lying about his career, and his only relevant experience is his stint as DNI, in which he left no doubt of his inexperience, incompetence, and partisan priorities. Hegseth, in the meantime, as a failed non-profit director and a Fox News talking head, is arguably even less of an expert on intelligence or military matters. Frankly, I suspect I would be a more competent secretary of defense than Hegseth, because at least I'm not an alcoholic. Trump giving these two stooges their current positions does not make them experts. That's not how it works.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #12695 on: March 30, 2025, 11:52:15 PM »
trump is really popular

so if your administration is popular enough, it's okay to be recklessly stupid and then lie to congress about it? i don't follow.

hunter biden

ah yes i forgot trump ran on a platform of "we're no better than democrats" lol.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12696 on: March 30, 2025, 11:52:53 PM »
Trump giving these two stooges their current positions does not make them experts. That's not how it works.

Trump giving them their positions isn't how it works either. Congress gives them their positions. The President's department head appointee picks are given to Congress for review, and if Congress agrees that they are qualified then they are confirmed. It's in the Constitution.

Here is John Lee Ratcliffe's questionnaire for Congress for CIA Director. He cites serving on Congressional Homeland Security, Intelligence, and Judiciary Committees, the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, anti-terrorism legal experience with the Department of Justice and the FBI, as well as a previous stint as Director of National Intelligence where he was the leader of the U.S. Intelligence Community. There was a confirmation hearing where he was questioned on his experience and qualifications.

This is obviously on an entirely different level than titles like journalist, former military veteran, and an anonymous DoD official who does not state their position. Ratcliffe has direct experience with the oversight of of intelligence communicated to outside sources. None of your sources state experience like that. Even if we accept every word of those anonymous sources as truthful, none of them cite a relevant qualification of dealing with the communication of intelligence to sources outside of the agency or military. As a qualified source, this guy is almost as good as it gets. If he says we are good, then we are golden.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2025, 03:58:15 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12697 on: March 31, 2025, 12:20:35 AM »
It's only problematic to the desperate anti-trump leftists and liberal media hype meisters. The average people see through this.
i like to think that I'm not that far from "average people" as well as a military veteran and I find this level of incompetence at the very top of the military command to be very problematic.  And so should anyone who thinks that keeping sensitive information out of the hands of people not authorized to have it is a good idea.

Trump's approval rating  has increased during the incident, suggesting that this has not moved the dial.
Approval ratings depend greatly on who you ask and polls are trivially easy to skew.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2025, 12:22:36 AM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12698 on: March 31, 2025, 05:10:48 AM »
https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/press-releases/chairman-wicker-ranking-member-reed-request-inspector-general-probe-into-signal-incident

The head of the Senate arms committee seems to think this requires investigation. And he's a republican.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #12699 on: March 31, 2025, 11:14:21 AM »
It's only problematic to the desperate anti-trump leftists and liberal media hype meisters. The average people see through this.
i like to think that I'm not that far from "average people" as well as a military veteran and I find this level of incompetence at the very top of the military command to be very problematic.  And so should anyone who thinks that keeping sensitive information out of the hands of people not authorized to have it is a good idea.

Part of the job of the Secretary of Defense is to tell us sensitive information though. He is a communicator of sensitive information. How many times have we heard over the years things like "We are sending another x thousand troops to the frontline". Maybe you could not communicate things like this when you were in the military, but the Secretary of Defense can.

We are talking about the nuance of what he can and can't say publicly or on unclassified networks, which goes beyond the well known rules for a soldier. You guys are applying the wrong rules to the wrong person. The SecDef has extra responsibility and classification powers for his special role. Whether he is giving out sensitive information to the public, or to VIPs, he has additional freedom and responsibility of disclosure. The partial operational activities he provided were not necessarily "obviously classified" or improper to communicate to anyone.

https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/press-releases/chairman-wicker-ranking-member-reed-request-inspector-general-probe-into-signal-incident

The head of the Senate arms committee seems to think this requires investigation. And he's a republican.

Your source is merely admitting that he doesn't know about classification rules. He is asking for:

Quote
This chat was alleged to have included classified information pertaining to sensitive military actions in Yemen. If true, this reporting raises questions as to the use of unclassified networks to discuss sensitive and classified information, as well as the sharing of such information with those who do not have proper clearance and need to know.

Accordingly, we ask that you conduct an inquiry into, and provide us with an assessment of, the following:

1. The facts and circumstances surrounding the above referenced Signal chat incident, including an accounting of what was communicated and any remedial actions taken as a result;

2. Department of Defense (DOD) policies and adherence to policies relating to government officers and employees sharing sensitive and classified information on non-government networks and electronic applications;

3. An assessment of DOD classification and declassification policies and processes and whether these policies and processes were adhered to;

He is not calling it classified. He is asking if it is. If he has to ask, then he doesn't know. My own interpretation is that he does know, and is playing dumb to get this in writing from the Inspector General and clear the name of Pete Hegseth and set the record straight for those ignorant of classification rules.

I already know the rules, and they aren't difficult to look up. See the bolded in the following from the Department of Defense Handbook for Writing Security Classification Guidance:

https://sgp.fas.org/library/quist2/app_c.html

Quote
The Department of Defense (DoD) provides guidance in classifying military operations information. The following information is taken from DoD's Department of Defense Handbook for Writing Security Classification Guidance. 5

While there are no hard and fast rules for classification of military operations information, and while each Military Service and command may require a unique approach to operations security (OPSEC), there are basic concepts which can be applied. What must be protected are operational concepts and their applications, and the capabilities, vulnerabilities, and weaknesses of the plan. The element of surprise is essential to military effectiveness in both tactical and strategic operations, and requires the continuous concealment of capabilities and intentions. OPSEC is the principal means of achieving that concealment.*, 6
* Operations security is the "process of denying adversaries information about friendly capabilities and intentions by identifying, controlling, and protecting indicators associated with planning and conducting military operations and other activities" [U.S. Department of Defense, Department of Defense Handbook for Writing Security Classification Guidance, DoD 5200.1-H, U.S. 5-3(d), March 1986].

Military operations information is defined for the purpose of this Handbook as information pertaining to a strategic or tactical military action, including training, movement of troops and equipment, supplies, and other information vital to the success of any battle or campaign. 7

Successful battle operations depend largely upon our ability to assess correctly the capability and intention of enemy forces at each stage of the battle and to communicate an effective battle doctrine throughout our forces. [To this might be added "and to keep the enemy from knowing, in advance, our capabilities and intentions during the battle."] Classifiable information would include:

a. The number, type, location, and strengths of opposing units.
b. The capabilities and vulnerabilities of weapons in enemy hands, and how he normally applies the weapon.
c. The morale and physical condition of the enemy force.8

Information related to operational plans (whether executed or not, presented in whole or in part) that if disclosed could be expected to cause damage to the United States, must be protected.8

In considering classification guidance for operations, there may be good reason to classify more information about the operation in the beginning than will be necessary later. Certain elements of information such as troop movements may no longer require protection after a certain date or event. When this point is reached, downgrading or even declassification should be considered.8

A classification guide should clearly identify the elements of information pertaining to the operational plan for which classification guidance is required. Classification shall continue only so long as unauthorized disclosure would result in damage to the national security, which may be an indefinite period of time in the case of unexecuted long range plans.9

Example items to be considered for classification include the following:10
- overall operational plans;
- system operational deployment or employment;
- initial operational capability date;
- planned location of operational units;
- equipage dates, readiness dates, and operational employment dates;
- total personnel requirements for total operational force;
- coordinates of selected operational sites;
- specific operational performance data that relate to the effectiveness of the control of forces and data on specific vulnerabilities and weaknesses;
- existing operational security and communications security procedures, projections, and techniques; and
- target characteristics.

From the bolded above we learn:

1. There are no hard rules for classification. It is essentially an opinionated matter, presumably for someone with classification powers

2. The only must there is that it must not be "expected" to cause harm to the United States. The word expected makes this another opinionated matter. The SecDef stated that the he did not expect the limited information he provided to cause harm.

3. There are various items we can "consider" for classification, meaning that not all elements are automatically classified

Those are the rules. They are not difficult to find. This is going to be a nothingburger for the Secretary of Defense. I don't know why you guys are pretending that the rules are only available in the heads of the likes of honk or garygreen for random accusations against high ranking officials, because they are clearly available for us.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2025, 02:44:23 PM by Tom Bishop »