[Tom Bishop]

I mean... if its all about money, then we should just let China and Russia take over all of Europe.  Why not?  Its not like having one of our enemies control vast amounts of food and energy is going to cause issues for America in the future.  We should also stop supporting Israel as they have no benefit to American interests.

Russia and China are not enemies with America, they are competitors. They haven't been enemies with America for three quarters of a century. If they take over European industry, good for them. Europeans should do better otherwise. I am sure that they will gladly sell Europe's resources to America.

You'll notice that we've given $83,430.46
The rest is appropriated but not distributed.  Still under the "Hundreds of billions" you claim.

The distinction is not relevant. They were given far more than has been distributed. A gift is given to you at the moment the intent and any materials are communicated to you, not later when you cash your Amazon gift card.

[Lord Dave]

I mean... if its all about money, then we should just let China and Russia take over all of Europe.  Why not?  Its not like having one of our enemies control vast amounts of food and energy is going to cause issues for America in the future.  We should also stop supporting Israel as they have no benefit to American interests.

Russia and China are not enemies with America, they are competitors. They haven't been enemies with America for three quarters of a century. If they take over European industry, good for them. Europeans should do better otherwise. I am sure that they will gladly sell Europe's resources to America.

That's not what you do to competitors, Tom.  You crush them.  And didn't Trump claim he'd be so tough on Russia?  What happened?  Why did you change your opinion?

You'll notice that we've given $83,430.46
The rest is appropriated but not distributed.  Still under the "Hundreds of billions" you claim.

The distinction is not relevant. They were given far more than has been distributed. A gift is given to you at the moment the intent and any materials are communicated to you, not later when you cash your Amazon gift card.

If the war ended tomorrow, further military aid would not be required and thus the allocated money would go unspent.

[honk]

Being "tough on Russia" implies that we are defending American interests. With the uncovered involvement of democrat financial interests in that country, ie. the Hunter Biden ordeal, it is hard to argue that Ukraine is in the interest of the average American.

I'm going to call out this lie every time you or anyone else reposts it. Viktor Shokin was fired for failing to investigate corruption, including at Burisma. It was not in Burisma's interests that he be fired. It was also the shared opinion of both parties in this country and the international community at large that Shokin was enormously corrupt and needed to go, not a personal whim of Biden's - and no, the fact that Biden himself was quoted at the time as saying "If the prosecutor is not fired, you're not getting the money" doesn't somehow "prove" that this really was a personal whim of his; it simply proves that it was the position of the Obama administration. There are plenty of sources for this, as I've posted before. It's a very well-documented subject. I don't expect you to concede this point, as you never have in the past, but I'm not going to let this lie stand unchallenged. Again, every time you trot this story out, I'll respond with a rebuttal like this so that nobody reading this thread is left in any doubt that it's a lie.

[Action80]

And I am not going to stand by and allow Sadaam to post his crap about the reasons for the firing of Shokin being well-documented, given his documentation wasn't immediately offered at the time of Shokin's firing, but instead being offered up once the "story," could be conjured up in support.

The CIA started this shit with the overthrow of the legitimate government in Ukraine back in 2014. They are the ones who do not want it to stop.

[Lord Dave]

And I am not going to stand by and allow Sadaam to post his crap about the reasons for the firing of Shokin being well-documented, given his documentation wasn't immediately offered at the time of Shokin's firing, but instead being offered up once the "story," could be conjured up in support.

The CIA started this shit with the overthrow of the legitimate government in Ukraine back in 2014. They are the ones who do not want it to stop.

Incorrect.
They started it by supporting and overthrowing the legitimate Russian government in 2012 when they helped Putin win again, thus ensuring an adversary in Russia.

[Action80]

...supporting and overthrowing...

COMEDY GOLD!!!

[Lord Dave]

...supporting and overthrowing...

COMEDY GOLD!!!

Why?
That's how it works.
You support on the front, stab in the back.  Have you never overthrown someone as leader?

[Tom Bishop]

Being "tough on Russia" implies that we are defending American interests. With the uncovered involvement of democrat financial interests in that country, ie. the Hunter Biden ordeal, it is hard to argue that Ukraine is in the interest of the average American.

I'm going to call out this lie every time you or anyone else reposts it. Viktor Shokin was fired for failing to investigate corruption, including at Burisma. It was not in Burisma's interests that he be fired. It was also the shared opinion of both parties in this country and the international community at large that Shokin was enormously corrupt and needed to go, not a personal whim of Biden's - and no, the fact that Biden himself was quoted at the time as saying "If the prosecutor is not fired, you're not getting the money" doesn't somehow "prove" that this really was a personal whim of his; it simply proves that it was the position of the Obama administration. There are plenty of sources for this, as I've posted before. It's a very well-documented subject. I don't expect you to concede this point, as you never have in the past, but I'm not going to let this lie stand unchallenged. Again, every time you trot this story out, I'll respond with a rebuttal like this so that nobody reading this thread is left in any doubt that it's a lie.

I actually wasn't referring to the corruption specifically. Even if we adopt the falsity that there was no corruption and that these were all legitimate business interests, Ukraine was a gravy train of money for several US political families, and hence a conflict of interest. It is difficult to argue that Ukraine was a beloved country to everyday Americans before this Ukraine conflict occurred.

The arguments that the US should have been involved have been incredibly poor. Recall Kamala's childish explanation that the US needs to be involved in this war because a bigger country was attacking a smaller country.

[Lord Dave]

Being "tough on Russia" implies that we are defending American interests. With the uncovered involvement of democrat financial interests in that country, ie. the Hunter Biden ordeal, it is hard to argue that Ukraine is in the interest of the average American.

I'm going to call out this lie every time you or anyone else reposts it. Viktor Shokin was fired for failing to investigate corruption, including at Burisma. It was not in Burisma's interests that he be fired. It was also the shared opinion of both parties in this country and the international community at large that Shokin was enormously corrupt and needed to go, not a personal whim of Biden's - and no, the fact that Biden himself was quoted at the time as saying "If the prosecutor is not fired, you're not getting the money" doesn't somehow "prove" that this really was a personal whim of his; it simply proves that it was the position of the Obama administration. There are plenty of sources for this, as I've posted before. It's a very well-documented subject. I don't expect you to concede this point, as you never have in the past, but I'm not going to let this lie stand unchallenged. Again, every time you trot this story out, I'll respond with a rebuttal like this so that nobody reading this thread is left in any doubt that it's a lie.

I actually wasn't referring to the corruption specifically. Even if we adopt the falsity that there was no corruption and that these were all legitimate business interests, Ukraine was a gravy train of money for several US political families, and hence a conflict of interest. It is difficult to argue that Ukraine was a beloved country to everyday Americans before this Ukraine conflict occurred.

The arguments that the US should have been involved have been incredibly poor. Recall Kamala's childish explanation that the US needs to be involved in this war because a bigger country was attacking a smaller country.

Yeah, why should we help others in need against an agreesor without financial incentive!  We're evil!

[Tom Bishop]

Yeah, why should we help others in need against an agreesor without financial incentive!  We're evil!

So America needs to be involved in ALL wars as a matter of morality, and step in to correct every injustice? Why haven't you been crying about all of the wars America did not involve itself in over the last 20 years?

At that, we can rest the case on this poor argument and hypocritical line of reasoning.

[Lord Dave]

Yeah, why should we help others in need against an agreesor without financial incentive!  We're evil!

So America needs to be involved in ALL wars as a matter of morality, and step in to correct every injustice? Why haven't you been crying about all of the wars America did not involve itself in over the last 20 years?

At that, we can rest the case on this poor argument and hypocritical line of reasoning.

I have, when there is a moral argument to be had.
Not all wars are one of morality.  Some are between two assholes over ancient rules.  We're still involved by providing aid.

[Action80]

Well, Trump pulled the funding and guess who's wanting to talk now...

It's okay for you to admit you want more people in this war to die, LD...We already know you got a solid investment in prolonged wars and death.

[Rushy]

If the war in Ukraine is so pivotal for the security of the Western world, and the EU genuinely believed this to be the case, then they wouldn't be giving Ukraine what is effectively their loose change they found in the couch cushions. They also wouldn't be actively buying oil and gas from Russia, sorry, I mean "India".

The actions of the EU do not align with their rhetoric. If the EU does not take Russia's invasion of Ukraine seriously, then why should the US?

[Lord Dave]

Well, Trump pulled the funding and guess who's wanting to talk now...

It's okay for you to admit you want more people in this war to die, LD...We already know you got a solid investment in prolonged wars and death.

He pulled funding on funds approved by congress.  Yep, illegal.  This is the second time he's done it so it's not a shock.

And hey, Russia could just ... Leave.  That would stop the killing.  Why haven't they?  Oh right, they want more people to die. 

If the war in Ukraine is so pivotal for the security of the Western world, and the EU genuinely believed this to be the case, then they wouldn't be giving Ukraine what is effectively their loose change they found in the couch cushions. They also wouldn't be actively buying oil and gas from Russia, sorry, I mean "India".

The actions of the EU do not align with their rhetoric. If the EU does not take Russia's invasion of Ukraine seriously, then why should the US?

Ukraine was a major grain exporter.  You knew that, right?


As for money:
If we go by Tom's numbers with the US allocating $174 billion...

The EU has allocated $198 billion.
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253

The $174 billion over 3 years is Pocket change to the US military budget.  7% of the military budget over the last 3 years, specifically.
Pocket change.

[Rushy]

Ukraine was a major grain exporter.  You knew that, right?

Oh no, not my grains!

As for money:
If we go by Tom's numbers with the US allocating $174 billion...

The EU has allocated $198 billion.
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253

The $174 billion over 3 years is Pocket change to the US military budget.  7% of the military budget over the last 3 years, specifically.
Pocket change.

Cool, so the EU, which claims they are under existential threat from Russia is giving 13% more in aid than a country on the other side of the planet.

If the EU were really at a point where they are about to actually die in a horrific war, they should be giving trillions in aid. But, like you said, they're only giving pocket change. Why is that?

[Lord Dave]

Ukraine was a major grain exporter.  You knew that, right?

Oh no, not my grains!

Why do you think food is so expensive?

As for money:
If we go by Tom's numbers with the US allocating $174 billion...

The EU has allocated $198 billion.
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253

The $174 billion over 3 years is Pocket change to the US military budget.  7% of the military budget over the last 3 years, specifically.
Pocket change.

Cool, so the EU, which claims they are under existential threat from Russia is giving 13% more in aid than a country on the other side of the planet.

If the EU were really at a point where they are about to actually die in a horrific war, they should be giving trillions in aid. But, like you said, they're only giving pocket change. Why is that?

Couple of problems.
1. The "pocket change" is compared to the US.
Europe spent about $340 billion in 2024 on defense.  All of the EU.  Since the war, the EU spent about $900 Billion in defense.  So $198 billion is about 22% of their entire defense spending.  Not pocket change. They're giving MORE and MORE OF A PERCENTAGE of their spending than the US.

2. More money isn't everything.  While continued funds are needed, you can't spend $100 billion all at once and get everything immediately.  Even if you bought $100 billion in missiles, you gotta wait til they're made and delivered.  Most weapons makers have a long back long of orders and your request for 100 missiles is just gonna take time.  So they need money, aid, weapons... But In a steady amount.  Which is why they haven't even gotten all the money congress approved for them. (And Trump is illegally denying)

3. Why is Europe still buying Russian oil and gas?  They're not buying nearly as much.  Alot if which got cut off with the pipeline explosion.  What you fail to understand is how intertwined European heating is with Russian gas. Most countries relied on it completely.  When it was cut off or severely hampered, most people had to switch to the only source available on such a short notice: electric.  And trust me, I felt that.  I know someone who could not even use their heater because the power bill was far too high.  In winter.  Hell, my electric bill trippled and we don't use Russian gas, we use electricity.  Which we sell to the nations that did use Russian gas for heating.

So yeah, it's a trade off of how much you wanna hurt but let me assure you: they are using considerably less Russian gas than they used to with some nations totally cut off.

[markjo]

It's okay for you to admit you want more people in this war to die,

It seems to me that, as the aggressor, Putin is the one who wants more people to die.  Zelensky is the one who wants to defend his people and national sovereignty against Putin's aggression.  Trump is the one who wants to use the situation to profit off of Ukraine's strategic natural resources without guarantees to help assure their security against further aggression.

[Rushy]

Why do you think food is so expensive?

Food isn't expensive, the dollar became worth considerably less. Ukraine's grain exports didn't cause worldwide inflation.

Couple of problems.
1. The "pocket change" is compared to the US.
Europe spent about $340 billion in 2024 on defense.  All of the EU.  Since the war, the EU spent about $900 Billion in defense.  So $198 billion is about 22% of their entire defense spending.  Not pocket change. They're giving MORE and MORE OF A PERCENTAGE of their spending than the US.

They should be giving several hundred times the amount the US gives, considering they're several hundred times closer to the problem.

The EU has a larger average government budget than the US does (thanks to their outrageous taxes). They should be spending more money.

2. More money isn't everything.  While continued funds are needed, you can't spend $100 billion all at once and get everything immediately.  Even if you bought $100 billion in missiles, you gotta wait til they're made and delivered.  Most weapons makers have a long back long of orders and your request for 100 missiles is just gonna take time.  So they need money, aid, weapons... But In a steady amount.  Which is why they haven't even gotten all the money congress approved for them. (And Trump is illegally denying)

If the money isn't a big deal then I guess Ukraine won't miss it!

3. Why is Europe still buying Russian oil and gas?  They're not buying nearly as much.  Alot if which got cut off with the pipeline explosion.  What you fail to understand is how intertwined European heating is with Russian gas. Most countries relied on it completely.  When it was cut off or severely hampered, most people had to switch to the only source available on such a short notice: electric.  And trust me, I felt that.  I know someone who could not even use their heater because the power bill was far too high.  In winter.  Hell, my electric bill trippled and we don't use Russian gas, we use electricity.  Which we sell to the nations that did use Russian gas for heating.

So yeah, it's a trade off of how much you wanna hurt but let me assure you: they are using considerably less Russian gas than they used to with some nations totally cut off.

They're not buying less Russian gas, in fact they're buying more than ever. The only reason it's slowed down somewhat is that we destroyed a pipeline Germany was going to use to buy even more! We can't trust Europeans not to fund a war they claim they are against.

[Lord Dave]

Why do you think food is so expensive?

Food isn't expensive, the dollar became worth considerably less. Ukraine's grain exports didn't cause worldwide inflation.

My Norwegian Kroner exchange rate as well as my food bill would disagree with that assessment.

Couple of problems.
1. The "pocket change" is compared to the US.
Europe spent about $340 billion in 2024 on defense.  All of the EU.  Since the war, the EU spent about $900 Billion in defense.  So $198 billion is about 22% of their entire defense spending.  Not pocket change. They're giving MORE and MORE OF A PERCENTAGE of their spending than the US.

They should be giving several hundred times the amount the US gives, considering they're several hundred times closer to the problem.

The EU has a larger average government budget than the US does (thanks to their outrageous taxes). They should be spending more money.

Several hundred times is the EU's entire defense budget and then some.  America is literally the highest spending country in the world when it comes to defense.

2. More money isn't everything.  While continued funds are needed, you can't spend $100 billion all at once and get everything immediately.  Even if you bought $100 billion in missiles, you gotta wait til they're made and delivered.  Most weapons makers have a long back long of orders and your request for 100 missiles is just gonna take time.  So they need money, aid, weapons... But In a steady amount.  Which is why they haven't even gotten all the money congress approved for them. (And Trump is illegally denying)

If the money isn't a big deal then I guess Ukraine won't miss it!

Which is not what I wrote.

3. Why is Europe still buying Russian oil and gas?  They're not buying nearly as much.  Alot if which got cut off with the pipeline explosion.  What you fail to understand is how intertwined European heating is with Russian gas. Most countries relied on it completely.  When it was cut off or severely hampered, most people had to switch to the only source available on such a short notice: electric.  And trust me, I felt that.  I know someone who could not even use their heater because the power bill was far too high.  In winter.  Hell, my electric bill trippled and we don't use Russian gas, we use electricity.  Which we sell to the nations that did use Russian gas for heating.

So yeah, it's a trade off of how much you wanna hurt but let me assure you: they are using considerably less Russian gas than they used to with some nations totally cut off.

They're not buying less Russian gas, in fact they're buying more than ever. The only reason it's slowed down somewhat is that we destroyed a pipeline Germany was going to use to buy even more! We can't trust Europeans not to fund a war they claim they are against.

Yeah, you're right.  I see the most recent charts now.
Fortunately winter is over so it should drop again.

[Action80]

"Pocohontas says yes..."

LMMFAO!!!