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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6260 on: September 25, 2020, 05:49:59 AM »
I did not claim that there was voter fraud in any particular election. I asked you guys simple questions which you are unable to answer and can only deflect on.

If there is voter fraud, why should a politician accept it?

Can you list out which politicians would accept voter fraud?

Please answer directly.
Donald J. Trump.
He would accept it if it means he won.
In fact, many politicians would accept it if they won and got away with it.  Why do you think they fight so hard against such accusations?  Trump stated, as a fact, that the 2016 election had fraud yet the investigation found nothing and closed without much of a peep.

So either
A) Trump lied.
B) He found some but he and republicans accepted it.

If you aren't going to answer my questions then I can only assume that you are accepting my position. No politician is going to accept voter fraud, so faulting Trump with that is just silly and dishonest.

Why can't you guys just be honest and make good arguments that you can double down on successfullly? If you don't have a good argument in your pocket then you should just keep your mouths shut.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6261 on: September 25, 2020, 05:53:52 AM »
Why not quote what he said?

Quote
Chris Wallace: Can you give a direct answer you will accept the election?

President Donald Trump: I have to see. Look, you — I have to see. No, I'm not going to just say yes. I'm not going to say no, and I didn't last time either.

We want to make sure that the election is honest. And I'm not sure that it can be. I don't know that it can be with this whole situation, unsolicited ballots

Looks like you were being dishonest. I don't see anything about mail-in ballots being invalid as a rule. He has his doubts on the practice of sending out millions of unsolicited ballots.

Trump said that he has to see how it plays out and there might be voter fraud. If there is voter fraud he's not going to accept it. And why should he? You just implicitly admitted that a politician shouldn't accept voter fraud.

I think your information is not quite up to date.  This is the most recent incident that I'm referring to.



Here he is stating, without any evidence, that the democrats are committing a massive amount of voter fraud.

Sounds like he said the same thing. He can't commit because there might be voter fraud. He has to see.

You clearly agreed that if there is voter fraud then a politician should not accept the results of the election, and that this was the proper course of action.

This has nothing to do with whether accusations of potential fraud are accurate or not. If there is voter fraud a politician should not accept those results. You agreed with that implicitly, and that's what Trump said he would do.

Trying to turn this into anything else is just dishonesty. Deflecting is dishonest. If there is fraud then those results should not be accepted. Simple.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 02:02:13 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6262 on: September 25, 2020, 06:03:31 AM »
I did not claim that there was voter fraud in any particular election. I asked you guys simple questions which you are unable to answer and can only deflect on.

If there is voter fraud, why should a politician accept it?

Can you list out which politicians would accept voter fraud?

Please answer directly.
Donald J. Trump.
He would accept it if it means he won.
In fact, many politicians would accept it if they won and got away with it.  Why do you think they fight so hard against such accusations?  Trump stated, as a fact, that the 2016 election had fraud yet the investigation found nothing and closed without much of a peep.

So either
A) Trump lied.
B) He found some but he and republicans accepted it.

If you aren't going to answer my questions then I can only assume that you are accepting my position. No politician is going to accept voter fraud, so faulting Trump with that is just silly and dishonest.

Why can't you guys just be honest and make good arguments that you can double down on successfullly? If you don't have a good argument in your pocket then you should just keep your mouths shut.

I did answer.  I answered who and why.  First paragraph. 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6263 on: September 25, 2020, 06:22:14 AM »
It just sounds to me that you can't really explain to me why a politician should accept voter fraud.

And some smarmy answer for the other question. The federal investigation Trump initiated proves that he did care about voter fraud. The states refused to participate and it was closed. End of.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-dismantles-voter-fraud-commission-heres-what-the-controversial-group-did

States refused to cooperate, which is different than not finding anything. Just more media dishonesty.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 08:07:29 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6264 on: September 25, 2020, 09:22:44 AM »
Trump is not a powerless also-ran, looking in from the outside, at something he cannot change.

He has had 3.5 years to secure the voting system against fraud, but he has not.

He has spent a year or so on the golf course.

He seems to spend his evenings and mornings watching Fox. He essentially admitted this to the world by reeling off eight hours' worth of shows, by name, in a recent press brief.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6265 on: September 25, 2020, 09:38:52 AM »
It just sounds to me that you can't really explain to me why a politician should accept voter fraud.
If they win, why shouldn't they?  They won. 
If they lost, they would not.
Kinda easy logic there.

Quote
And some smarmy answer for the other question. The federal investigation Trump initiated proves that he did care about voter fraud. The states refused to participate and it was closed. End of.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-dismantles-voter-fraud-commission-heres-what-the-controversial-group-did

States refused to cooperate, which is different than not finding anything. Just more media dishonesty.
Yes, they refused to give private information to the federal government including info that is not relevant.  Like convictions, military history, social security numbers, date of birth, etc...  All of which they have anyway in other federal agencies.  So why ask for it? 

Simple question: if Obama wanted that info, would you want your state to provide your info to him?

Also remember: Trump HAD THE PROOF!  He had all the evidence already.  He knew 3-5 million illegals voted for Hillary.  So why would they need anything else?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6266 on: September 25, 2020, 03:16:21 PM »
Considering that Trump's main opponent is voter fraud, I don't see why Trump should accept the results of the election if fraud is apparent.

So if he notionally wins, and fraud is "apparent", then the speaker of house will become acting president when Trump realises that he cannot accept the office based on an election deemed to be fraudulent.

If Biden notionally wins, with similar fraud "apparent", Biden accepts the election is undecided, and again - speaker of the house becomes acting president. 

No?
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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6267 on: September 25, 2020, 04:37:04 PM »
The result? Trump actually ended up winning and the DNC screeched about "Russian interference" for the past four years. Ironically, it was the Democrats that had enormous trouble accepting their loss (and still do).

The investigation into Russian interference began before the election and was dutifully continued and even expanded under Trump's administration, with all three branches of government firmly under Republican control. It had nothing to do with Democrats or the DNC beyond them being vocally supportive of such an investigation, and has already proved its merit through the large number of indictments it racked up. I agree with you that there's no real danger of Trump clinging to power if he loses. His term of office expires on January 20th, and his approval or cooperation is not a required part of the transfer of power. But it's ridiculous to characterize the Russian investigation as some sort of Democrat-spawned spiteful refusal to accept loss.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6268 on: September 25, 2020, 11:24:46 PM »
Trump is having three rallies today in three different states.



Joe Biden is having three naps today.

Quote
Yes, they refused to give private information to the federal government including info that is not relevant.  Like convictions, military history, social security numbers, date of birth, etc...  All of which they have anyway in other federal agencies.  So why ask for it?

Federal agencies don't have PII for voting records. To detect fraud you need to know information about who voted. There is no way to check anonymous data.

Quote
Simple question: if Obama wanted that info, would you want your state to provide your info to him?

I wouldn't care if the Obama whitehouse wanted the last four digits of social security numbers for CA voting records, like Trump's white house asked for, to detect possible voting fraud. Any actionable items from them would need to be verifiably real with the state records, obviously. I would prefer that the federal government regularly checks for voting fraud in a transparent manner, rigorous enough for a court of law. I can see why the democrats would care about hiding the possible voter fraud of their constituents, however.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 11:58:08 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6269 on: September 25, 2020, 11:28:30 PM »
Trump is having three rallies today in three different states.

Oh that's nice, he decided to take the day off from playing golf huh?

Also, remember he's calling them protests now. It's the only way he can get away with them!
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6270 on: September 25, 2020, 11:45:12 PM »
Trump is having three rallies today in three different states.

... which is totally irresponsible, given the death toll so far from a pandemic which DJT agrees is airborne, and which, in at least one city, has been declared illegal according to local statutes on max numbers at gatherings.

Why do you support a fool and a law-breaker?
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6271 on: September 26, 2020, 07:21:11 AM »
Trump is having three rallies today in three different states.



Joe Biden is having three naps today.
And?  I mean, best for him to be out so he his risk of getting sick is higher than him tweeting from his office all day.

Quote
Quote
Yes, they refused to give private information to the federal government including info that is not relevant.  Like convictions, military history, social security numbers, date of birth, etc...  All of which they have anyway in other federal agencies.  So why ask for it?

Federal agencies don't have PII for voting records. To detect fraud you need to know information about who voted. There is no way to check anonymous data.
Yes.  Very useful data to know who voted and, based on the area, for who.  Makes it easy to stop them next time, right? ;)

But again, Trump already knew so .... Yeah.
Anyway, all you really need is names, DoB, and who voted.  Then check to see who voted multiple times in different areas.  Like that woman who voted on behalf of her mom. 

The issue they'll have is that any impactful fraud is going to be hard to detect.  But voter rosters are public so really all you need is that plus DoB and cross reference it with IRS records to determine if anyone on the list isn't a citizen, or dead.  Then send that list to the state and ask them to verify.  Easy peasy.  But they wanted criminal records, military status, social security bit, address.  Things they don't need.  Unless they think 3 million felons voted.

Also note: republican states also refused.  Maybe they cheat too?

Quote
Quote
Simple question: if Obama wanted that info, would you want your state to provide your info to him?

I wouldn't care if the Obama whitehouse wanted the last four digits of social security numbers for CA voting records, like Trump's white house asked for, to detect possible voting fraud. Any actionable items from them would need to be verifiably real with the state records, obviously. I would prefer that the federal government regularly checks for voting fraud in a transparent manner, rigorous enough for a court of law. I can see why the democrats would care about hiding the possible voter fraud of their constituents, however.
I'm sure something could be setup.  But Trump definitely didn't do this bipartisan and not in a 'lets check this out as a precaution'.  This was an attack because his ego was hurt.  And if Republican states didn't bow to him, maybe that should tell you something.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6272 on: September 26, 2020, 09:49:45 AM »
Why do you support a fool and a law-breaker?

If you aren't going to answer my questions then I can only assume that you are accepting my position.

Do you accept my position, i.e. that Trump is a fool and a law-breaker?
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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6273 on: September 28, 2020, 01:03:12 AM »
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html

I can't imagine that this will sway any minds at this late juncture, but it's good to have more evidence that Trump is not and has never been a great businessman. He's a rich kid who inherited the bulk of his fortune and squandered much of it, but now seems to be making lots of money from foreign deals and increased visitation at his properties from lobbyists and foreign officials/businesspeople. I feel pretty safe in saying that if it were commonly understood that Trump was not the titan of business that The Apprentice depicted him as, or even a particularly good businessman at all, he would not have been elected president. So a story like this, attacking the very foundation of his political success, should be huge. If it were to be confirmed, it should be a career-ender on par with what would happen to Obama if it were discovered that every speech he ever made was just him lip-syncing while a trained voice actor and a team of sound engineers hiding backstage provided the vocals. But it won't be, because Trump defies political gravity and has already casually admitted to or been implicated in at least half a dozen major scandals - any single one of which would be enough to end any other politician's career in disgrace - all to very little effect.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 04:22:02 AM by honk »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #6274 on: September 28, 2020, 01:29:50 AM »
Would you mind copy-pasting the article? Paywalls can suck it.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6275 on: September 28, 2020, 04:25:23 AM »
Would you mind copy-pasting the article? Paywalls can suck it.

Summary:
He's paid no taxes for almost 15 years and like $750 in 2016 and 2017.
He writes off his debt due to losing alot of money every year.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6276 on: September 28, 2020, 04:40:15 AM »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6277 on: September 28, 2020, 05:59:57 AM »
From NPR News
Trump Dismisses 'New York Times' Report That He Paid Little In Federal Income Taxes https://www.npr.org/2020/09/27/917566141/trump-dismisses-new-york-times-reporting-that-he-paid-little-in-federal-income-t?sc=18&f=1001

Re: Trump
« Reply #6278 on: September 28, 2020, 07:10:41 AM »
Would you mind copy-pasting the article? Paywalls can suck it.
Here’s the BBC article about it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54319948

I look forward to Tom’s inevitable defence

I like the fact that Trump’s defence is basically “nuh uh”. And says that we’ll see when he releases the tax returns. Are those the same one you’ve been saying you’ll release for the last 4 years, Donald? And yes, you can release them while under audit...
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 07:14:22 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6279 on: September 28, 2020, 09:47:16 AM »
Ivanka will go down with the ship, and with the Captain, if there's any justice. From the NYT story;

"Helping to reduce Mr. Trump’s tax bills are unidentified consultants’ fees, some of which can be matched to payments received by Ivanka Trump. Examining the Trump Organization’s tax records, a curious pattern emerges: Between 2010 and 2018, Mr. Trump wrote off some $26 million in unexplained “consulting fees” as a business expense across nearly all of his projects.

The “consultants” are not identified in the tax records. But evidence of this arrangement was gleaned by comparing the confidential tax records to the financial disclosures Ivanka Trump filed when she joined the White House staff in 2017. Ms. Trump reported receiving payments from a consulting company she co-owned, totaling $747,622, that exactly matched consulting fees claimed as tax deductions by the Trump Organization for hotel projects in Vancouver and Hawaii.

Ms. Trump appears to have both managed (both those deals), as a salaried Trump Organization executive, and also been paid as a “consultant” on them. Ms. Trump had been an executive officer of the Trump companies that received profits from and paid the consulting fees for both projects — meaning she appears to have been treated as a consultant on the same hotel deals that she helped manage as part of her job at her father’s business.

When asked about the arrangement, the Trump Organization lawyer, Mr. Garten, did not comment.

Employers can deduct consulting fees as a business expense and also avoid the withholding taxes that apply to wages. To claim the deduction, the consulting arrangement must be an “ordinary and necessary” part of running the business, with fees that are reasonable and market-based, according to the I.R.S. The recipient of the fees is still required to pay income tax.

The I.R.S. has pursued civil penalties against some business owners who devised schemes to avoid taxes by paying exorbitant fees to related parties who were not in fact independent contractors. A 2011 tax court case centered on the I.R.S.’s denial of almost $3 million in deductions for consulting fees the partners in an Illinois accounting firm paid themselves via corporations they created. The court concluded that the partners had structured the fees to “distribute profits, not to compensate for services.”

There is no indication that the I.R.S. has questioned Mr. Trump’s practice of deducting millions of dollars in consulting fees. If the payments to his daughter were compensation for work, it is not clear why Mr. Trump would do it in this form, other than to reduce his own tax liability. Another, more legally perilous possibility is that the fees were a way to transfer assets to his children without incurring a gift tax.

... the fact that some of the consulting fees are identical to those reported by Mr. Trump’s daughter raises the question of whether this was a mechanism the president used to compensate his adult children involved with his business. Indeed, in some instances where large fees were claimed, people with direct knowledge of the projects were not aware of any outside consultants who would have been paid.

...

Ms. Trump disclosed in her public filing that the fees she received were paid through TTT Consulting L.L.C., which she said provided “consulting, licensing and management services for real estate projects.” Incorporated in Delaware in December 2005, the firm is one of several Trump-related entities with some variation of TTT or TTTT in the name that appear to refer to members of the Trump family.

Like her brothers Donald Jr. and Eric, Ms. Trump was a longtime employee of the Trump Organization and an executive officer for more than 200 Trump companies that licensed or managed hotel and resort properties. The tax records show that the three siblings had each drawn a salary from their father’s company — roughly $480,000 a year, jumping to about $2 million after Mr. Trump became president — though Ms. Trump no longer receives a salary. What’s more, Mr. Trump has said the children were intimately involved in negotiating and managing his projects. When asked in a 2011 lawsuit deposition whom he relied on to handle important details of his licensing deals, he named only Ivanka, Donald Jr. and Eric.

On Ms. Trump’s now-defunct website, which explains her role at the Trump Organization, she was not identified as a consultant. Rather, she has been described as a senior executive who “actively participates in all aspects of both Trump and Trump branded projects, including deal evaluation, predevelopment planning, financing, design, construction, sales and marketing, and ensuring that Trump’s world-renowned physical and operational standards are met.

“She is involved in all decisions — large and small.”"
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