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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4340 on: August 28, 2019, 01:42:21 PM »
Just take the L guys. You didn’t read it closely and jumped to a conclusion. It’s totally possible not to let your bus interfere, that’s how Pete saw you guys misread it. If we want to repair things, then don’t justify your mistakes with slander.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4341 on: August 28, 2019, 01:57:09 PM »
Just take the L guys. You didn’t read it closely and jumped to a conclusion. It’s totally possible not to let your bus interfere, that’s how Pete saw you guys misread it. If we want to repair things, then don’t justify your mistakes with slander.

What slander? ???

I admitted I might have possibly made a mistake,  maybe. That might seem half-hearted but it's more than you'll ever get from Trump.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4342 on: August 28, 2019, 02:04:00 PM »
Also, just to be clear: I'm not saying what Trump said was right. Just that I think the "racist" interpretation is far-fetched.

(I used to be in favour of EC, but it wasn't rooted in anything other than intuition, and I simply don't have the knowledge to construct a coherent viewpoint.)
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Re: Trump
« Reply #4343 on: August 28, 2019, 02:26:26 PM »
The EC is weird in that it gives smaller states a bigger voice collectively but it also means states with big cities (NY) drown out everyone else in the state anyway.

I see arguments for both sides and there is no good answer, just a choice.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4344 on: August 28, 2019, 03:43:41 PM »
Also, just to be clear: I'm not saying what Trump said was right. Just that I think the "racist" interpretation is far-fetched.

(I used to be in favour of EC, but it wasn't rooted in anything other than intuition, and I simply don't have the knowledge to construct a coherent viewpoint.)

I understood that, hence my follow up paragraph where I attempted to rationalize the designation anyway.

The EC is weird in that it gives smaller states a bigger voice collectively but it also means states with big cities (NY) drown out everyone else in the state anyway.

I see arguments for both sides and there is no good answer, just a choice.

What the Electoral College does is make it so that a handful of states decide any given presidential election, leading candidates to make profuse promises to those states and outright ignoring the vast majority of the country (not just in the election but in policymaking while in office, since they rightly feel the need to focus on living up to the promises made during the election; hence Trump's intense focus on revitalizing the mostly dead coal industry, among other things). In any other election in this country it's one person, one vote, and that is how a representational democracy should work.

Without the Electoral College each vote counts equally. With it the majority of the country doesn't even matter. What are the positives of such a system exactly?
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Re: Trump
« Reply #4345 on: August 28, 2019, 03:55:57 PM »
Also, just to be clear: I'm not saying what Trump said was right. Just that I think the "racist" interpretation is far-fetched.

(I used to be in favour of EC, but it wasn't rooted in anything other than intuition, and I simply don't have the knowledge to construct a coherent viewpoint.)

I understood that, hence my follow up paragraph where I attempted to rationalize the designation anyway.

The EC is weird in that it gives smaller states a bigger voice collectively but it also means states with big cities (NY) drown out everyone else in the state anyway.

I see arguments for both sides and there is no good answer, just a choice.

What the Electoral College does is make it so that a handful of states decide any given presidential election, leading candidates to make profuse promises to those states and outright ignoring the vast majority of the country (not just in the election but in policymaking while in office, since they rightly feel the need to focus on living up to the promises made during the election; hence Trump's intense focus on revitalizing the mostly dead coal industry, among other things). In any other election in this country it's one person, one vote, and that is how a representational democracy should work.

Without the Electoral College each vote counts equally. With it the majority of the country doesn't even matter. What are the positives of such a system exactly?
Actually, the electoral college does the exact opposite of what you claim.

It prevents a handful of states from deciding a presidential election.

Clinton is the one who won the smallest amount of states, but they had the largest populations.

No one denies that birds of a feather flock together.

Liberals prefer to live in cities that can't clean themselves up.

Patriots prefer to live in the rural areas and like to keep things pristine.

Re: Trump
« Reply #4346 on: August 28, 2019, 04:42:17 PM »
Population density and garbage are very much parallel. 

Also, if the rural is so great, why do so few live there?  Maybe the issue isn't that rural is superior(or patriot), but that it sucks for most people.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4347 on: August 28, 2019, 06:30:17 PM »
Population density and garbage are very much parallel. 

Also, if the rural is so great, why do so few live there?  Maybe the issue isn't that rural is superior(or patriot), but that it sucks for most people.

Lmao! Nebraska changed their slogan from "Nebraska, The Good Life" to "Nebraska, it's not for everyone".

I think what you stated has something to do with the slogan change. I agree, city life is easier for most people even if crime and pollution are higher.

In Nebraska, the EC has the effect of allowing rural communities to have a voice. The majority of Nebraskas population lives in two cities, Lincoln and Omaha. Their combined population vastly outweighs the rest of the state. Unfortunately, it seems that the EC also removes the voice of those two cities entirely since both cities voted overwhelmingly democratic in the last election while the state as a whole gave its EC votes to Trump.

Removing the EC would easily turn Nebraska (which has always been red) to a blue state.

I guess what I'm getting at is, in Nebraskas case, does the majority population adequately represent the needs of the state as a whole? Considering Nebraska is a major contributor to agriculture, should the two cities that have little to no contribution to the farming industry be able to have legislative power over the state of the farming industry?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 06:37:30 PM by timterroo »
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4348 on: August 28, 2019, 08:50:07 PM »
Also, just to be clear: I'm not saying what Trump said was right. Just that I think the "racist" interpretation is far-fetched.

(I used to be in favour of EC, but it wasn't rooted in anything other than intuition, and I simply don't have the knowledge to construct a coherent viewpoint.)

I understood that, hence my follow up paragraph where I attempted to rationalize the designation anyway.

The EC is weird in that it gives smaller states a bigger voice collectively but it also means states with big cities (NY) drown out everyone else in the state anyway.

I see arguments for both sides and there is no good answer, just a choice.

What the Electoral College does is make it so that a handful of states decide any given presidential election, leading candidates to make profuse promises to those states and outright ignoring the vast majority of the country (not just in the election but in policymaking while in office, since they rightly feel the need to focus on living up to the promises made during the election; hence Trump's intense focus on revitalizing the mostly dead coal industry, among other things). In any other election in this country it's one person, one vote, and that is how a representational democracy should work.

Without the Electoral College each vote counts equally. With it the majority of the country doesn't even matter. What are the positives of such a system exactly?
Actually, the electoral college does the exact opposite of what you claim.

It prevents a handful of states from deciding a presidential election.

This is a nonsensical argument on the face of it. It's only with an Electoral College that any states decide an election at all. Without the Electoral College it just comes down to what the majority wants. Suddenly candidates don't have to focus on pleasing the minority of voters who live in whatever "battleground states" happen to actually matter in the election and can focus on making (and hopefully keeping) promises that benefit the country as a whole. As AOC pointed out, even your Exalted Leader agreed that the Electoral College was wrong... when it didn't benefit him personally.

Population density and garbage are very much parallel. 

Also, if the rural is so great, why do so few live there?  Maybe the issue isn't that rural is superior(or patriot), but that it sucks for most people.

Lmao! Nebraska changed their slogan from "Nebraska, The Good Life" to "Nebraska, it's not for everyone".

I think what you stated has something to do with the slogan change. I agree, city life is easier for most people even if crime and pollution are higher.

In Nebraska, the EC has the effect of allowing rural communities to have a voice. The majority of Nebraskas population lives in two cities, Lincoln and Omaha. Their combined population vastly outweighs the rest of the state. Unfortunately, it seems that the EC also removes the voice of those two cities entirely since both cities voted overwhelmingly democratic in the last election while the state as a whole gave its EC votes to Trump.

Removing the EC would easily turn Nebraska (which has always been red) to a blue state.

I guess what I'm getting at is, in Nebraskas case, does the majority population adequately represent the needs of the state as a whole? Considering Nebraska is a major contributor to agriculture, should the two cities that have little to no contribution to the farming industry be able to have legislative power over the state of the farming industry?

Part of the problem with the Electoral College is that your argument only holds if Nebraska happens to be a battleground state. If it's not, neither the large cities nor the farming communities have a say in the election... and Nebraska's needs are ignored for the next 4 years. And that's just wrong.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 08:54:42 PM by Roundy »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #4349 on: August 28, 2019, 08:57:00 PM »
Population density and garbage are very much parallel. 

Also, if the rural is so great, why do so few live there?  Maybe the issue isn't that rural is superior(or patriot), but that it sucks for most people.
Direct correlation is not parallel.

And it demonstrates mindset.

Those from urban areas view the garbage and think everyone should happily bath in it just like them.

And everything is garbage to them, including people and the Constitution.

The Electoral College, being part of the Constitution, is something else to discard to the street according to them.

Luckily for us, the current POTUS isn't going to be helping them.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4350 on: August 28, 2019, 09:03:00 PM »
So I looked it up, and it turns out that 8 states and one congressional district are being considered swing states... and that congressional district happens to be the one that encompasses metropolitan Omaha. So based on current predictions about next year's election one of the big cities in Nebraska will help decide the election, not the farmers... thanks solely to the existence of the Electoral College.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 11:33:45 PM by Roundy »
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4351 on: August 29, 2019, 01:21:33 AM »
So I looked it up, and it turns out that 8 states and one congressional district are being considered swing states... and that congressional district happens to be the one that encompasses metropolitan Omaha. So based on current predictions about next year's election one of the big cities in Nebraska will help decide the election, not the farmers... thanks solely to the existence of the Electoral College.

Well, I had to "fact check" that, and I read the same predictions. So it turns out Nebraska might split its EC votes next year, but that doesn't mean farmers won't help Trump win - there are still 4 other votes that will be in favor of the reps.

I say "reps" rather than "trump" simply because I'm not convinced the greater rural Nebraska pop actually votes based on policy, but rather on party. I think they'd vote red regardless who was running.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4352 on: August 29, 2019, 02:03:13 AM »
So I looked it up, and it turns out that 8 states and one congressional district are being considered swing states... and that congressional district happens to be the one that encompasses metropolitan Omaha. So based on current predictions about next year's election one of the big cities in Nebraska will help decide the election, not the farmers... thanks solely to the existence of the Electoral College.

Well, I had to "fact check" that, and I read the same predictions. So it turns out Nebraska might split its EC votes next year, but that doesn't mean farmers won't help Trump win - there are still 4 other votes that will be in favor of the reps.

Sure. But the candidates will ignore their specific needs, since there's virtually no chance Nebraska as a whole will go anything but red in the election. They don't need to make them any promises. They need only bend over backwards to please voters in the battleground states where they might be able to influence the outcome.

It is a broken system.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #4353 on: August 29, 2019, 04:23:10 AM »
Population density and garbage are very much parallel. 

Also, if the rural is so great, why do so few live there?  Maybe the issue isn't that rural is superior(or patriot), but that it sucks for most people.
Direct correlation is not parallel.

And it demonstrates mindset.

Those from urban areas view the garbage and think everyone should happily bath in it just like them.

And everything is garbage to them, including people and the Constitution.

The Electoral College, being part of the Constitution, is something else to discard to the street according to them.

Luckily for us, the current POTUS isn't going to be helping them.
Yes, sorry, my brain couldn't remember correlation.
But Urban areas do not want garbage.  But that would explain why Trump does.
And he wanted to get rid of the EC...
Hhmmmm....

You may have a point.  And Trump, being a life long Urban Center living man, would be the best representation.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4354 on: August 29, 2019, 11:18:23 AM »
So I looked it up, and it turns out that 8 states and one congressional district are being considered swing states... and that congressional district happens to be the one that encompasses metropolitan Omaha. So based on current predictions about next year's election one of the big cities in Nebraska will help decide the election, not the farmers... thanks solely to the existence of the Electoral College.

Well, I had to "fact check" that, and I read the same predictions. So it turns out Nebraska might split its EC votes next year, but that doesn't mean farmers won't help Trump win - there are still 4 other votes that will be in favor of the reps.

Sure. But the candidates will ignore their specific needs, since there's virtually no chance Nebraska as a whole will go anything but red in the election. They don't need to make them any promises. They need only bend over backwards to please voters in the battleground states where they might be able to influence the outcome.

It is a broken system.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet Trump will not persuade Omaha to vote red.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4355 on: August 29, 2019, 06:25:04 PM »
So I looked it up, and it turns out that 8 states and one congressional district are being considered swing states... and that congressional district happens to be the one that encompasses metropolitan Omaha. So based on current predictions about next year's election one of the big cities in Nebraska will help decide the election, not the farmers... thanks solely to the existence of the Electoral College.

Well, I had to "fact check" that, and I read the same predictions. So it turns out Nebraska might split its EC votes next year, but that doesn't mean farmers won't help Trump win - there are still 4 other votes that will be in favor of the reps.

Sure. But the candidates will ignore their specific needs, since there's virtually no chance Nebraska as a whole will go anything but red in the election. They don't need to make them any promises. They need only bend over backwards to please voters in the battleground states where they might be able to influence the outcome.

It is a broken system.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet Trump will not persuade Omaha to vote red.

He's gonna try. This one electoral vote is more important to winning the election than the combined electoral votes of 42 states, as well as those of the rest of Nebraska.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 06:40:08 PM by Roundy »
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4356 on: August 29, 2019, 07:40:12 PM »
I did some more research, and I was wrong when I stated that Lincoln and Omaha voted overwhelmingly democratic in 2016 - it was actually a very tight margin....
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4357 on: August 29, 2019, 08:07:09 PM »
I did some more research, and I was wrong when I stated that Lincoln and Omaha voted overwhelmingly democratic in 2016 - it was actually a very tight margin....

Right. The Republicans have gerrymandered the district enough to even things out more. They say Trump has the edge in the district now but only by a tight margin.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4358 on: August 29, 2019, 08:23:21 PM »
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lawrence-odonnell-apology-retraction-msnbc-host-story-on-president-trump-finances-after-lawyers-threaten-to-sue/

And again someone in the liberal media gives Trump's claims that the media is out to get him with fake news the ultimate credence... by demonstrating that he's out to get Trump with fake news.

tfw the Democrats try to give the election away yet again...
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Offline crutonius

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4359 on: August 29, 2019, 09:31:50 PM »
Yeah I cringed even before I read the retraction. 

Some hosts I like on MSNBC.  O'Donnell I really don't.  All he does is repeat the things Trump has done with an incredulous tone of voice.

But all he has to do is wait a week and some new nonsense will drown this out.