Re: Trump
« Reply #2840 on: June 12, 2018, 02:02:25 PM »
Right now I'm wondering how MSNBC is covering this. They seem as unwilling to report when Trump does something right as Fox is when Trump does something wrong.

So far this is looking like a huge win for Trump.


It looks like they're swinging with "Its not over yet" and "Trump is BFF with Hitler"

Re: Trump
« Reply #2841 on: June 12, 2018, 02:20:08 PM »
It looks like they're swinging with "Its not over yet" and "Trump is BFF with Hitler"

Not such an unreasonable stance at this stage, Kim Jong Un is crackers, no guarantee he'll follow through.
Have to say though, I've spent the last year facepalming at pretty much everything Trump has done but if he's puled this off then it will be massively impressive.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #2842 on: June 12, 2018, 02:47:33 PM »
It looks like they're swinging with "Its not over yet" and "Trump is BFF with Hitler"

Not such an unreasonable stance at this stage, Kim Jong Un is crackers, no guarantee he'll follow through.
Have to say though, I've spent the last year facepalming at pretty much everything Trump has done but if he's puled this off then it will be massively impressive.
It's like when Nixon went to China.

Re: Trump
« Reply #2843 on: June 14, 2018, 05:26:00 AM »
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44461763


Welp.... America's president is officially pro-dictator.


This interview is just.... wow.  I'm not even sure what part is worse but I probably the whole "Get Nukes, then it'll be be an honor to meet you and negotiate."


I guess Iran has every reason to get Nukes now.

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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2844 on: June 14, 2018, 03:27:04 PM »
Trump is very easily manipulated by anyone who says the right things. No doubt Kim came prepared and flattered Trump, bashed the media, and so on.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #2845 on: June 14, 2018, 03:40:18 PM »
Trump is very easily manipulated by anyone who says the right things. No doubt Kim came prepared and flattered Trump, bashed the media, and so on.


NK media is caling it a win for Kim.  All sorts of concessions.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2846 on: June 14, 2018, 05:04:11 PM »
American neolibs: gee I wish we could sort out North Korea
Donald Trump: ok
neolibs: wait no not like this, this is bad, this is the worst thing ever can we please have war again

Sheesh, it's almost like you guys didn care about the lives of some 25 million people

Also, speaking of people saying the "right things" to manipulate someone, I love the propaganda video Trump brought to the summit. https://www.wsj.com/video/trump-shows-kim-short-video-to-pitch-peace-during-north-korea-summit/956F8365-EB90-4FE6-B1B0-887821B1156C.html
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 05:06:49 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2847 on: June 14, 2018, 05:58:35 PM »

Re: Trump
« Reply #2848 on: June 14, 2018, 06:13:38 PM »
American neolibs: gee I wish we could sort out North Korea
Donald Trump: ok
neolibs: wait no not like this, this is bad, this is the worst thing ever can we please have war again

Sheesh, it's almost like you guys didn care about the lives of some 25 million people

Also, speaking of people saying the "right things" to manipulate someone, I love the propaganda video Trump brought to the summit. https://www.wsj.com/video/trump-shows-kim-short-video-to-pitch-peace-during-north-korea-summit/956F8365-EB90-4FE6-B1B0-887821B1156C.html
I've always been a fan of "Work with China to assassinate Kim Jong Un and slowly integrate North Korea into China by having China take charge".
Yeah, I saw that.  Hilarious.

Re: Trump
« Reply #2849 on: June 14, 2018, 06:15:52 PM »
Also:


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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2850 on: June 14, 2018, 06:39:54 PM »
The NK general saluted first and Trump saluted back. This is the normal way to show respect between military leaders; the lower rank salutes first, and the higher rank returns the salute.

Unfortunately, it gave the amazing chance for the media to whore out a picture taken from a video to push a specific narrative. And they wonder why trust in media is at an all time low...

Re: Trump
« Reply #2851 on: June 14, 2018, 08:04:09 PM »
the summit was basically an unmitigated disaster.  it was both a material and HUGE propaganda victory for the dprk, and we got literally nothing in return.  not a thing.  i guess we got a piece of paper that says "we totally promise to denuclearize this time."  fucking lol.

nice 69-d chess from the deal-maker.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #2852 on: June 14, 2018, 08:30:18 PM »
The NK general saluted first and Trump saluted back. This is the normal way to show respect between military leaders; the lower rank salutes first, and the higher rank returns the salute.

Unfortunately, it gave the amazing chance for the media to whore out a picture taken from a video to push a specific narrative. And they wonder why trust in media is at an all time low...


Oh I know.  But if the right can use Obama bowing, I can use Trump saluting.


Though I wouldn't think you'd salute a non-allied nation's military leaders.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2853 on: June 14, 2018, 09:41:34 PM »
we got literally nothing in return.  not a thing.
So, I won't dispute the fact that North Korea could be lying, given their clear precedent, but let's assume for a moment that that's not the case. Why do we need to "get" something in return for peace? Why is giving peace and prosperity a shot such a bad thing? Kim has shown at least a base minimum level of commitment by dismantling some of his nuclear facilities. Like, sure, trusting him shouldn't be the default state, but what do we have to lose?
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Re: Trump
« Reply #2854 on: June 14, 2018, 10:53:18 PM »
we got literally nothing in return.  not a thing.
So, I won't dispute the fact that North Korea could be lying, given their clear precedent, but let's assume for a moment that that's not the case. Why do we need to "get" something in return for peace? Why is giving peace and prosperity a shot such a bad thing? Kim has shown at least a base minimum level of commitment by dismantling some of his nuclear facilities. Like, sure, trusting him shouldn't be the default state, but what do we have to lose?

Fastest way to assess this, how does Trump's North Korea deal stack up with Obama's Iran deal?

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2855 on: June 14, 2018, 11:22:09 PM »
I don’t have a problem with Trump being diplomatic with Kim Jong Un, but it’s another thing to do a press tour where he is lauding the job the KJU has done in DPRK.

The deal is probably better than Obama’s since they extracted about equal concession for what is ultimately a cost-saving measure and one that deescalates militarism on the Korean Peninsula. Hopefully North Korea holds end up their end of the bargain.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #2856 on: June 15, 2018, 06:56:30 AM »
American neolibs: gee I wish we could sort out North Korea
Donald Trump: ok
neolibs: wait no not like this, this is bad, this is the worst thing ever can we please have war again

Sheesh, it's almost like you guys didn care about the lives of some 25 million people

Also, speaking of people saying the "right things" to manipulate someone, I love the propaganda video Trump brought to the summit. https://www.wsj.com/video/trump-shows-kim-short-video-to-pitch-peace-during-north-korea-summit/956F8365-EB90-4FE6-B1B0-887821B1156C.html
I've always been a fan of "Work with China to assassinate Kim Jong Un and slowly integrate North Korea into China by having China take charge".
Yeah, I saw that.  Hilarious.

Oh sure, I mean, if what you're looking for is to start a war there's no surer way than assassinating a world leader.

I mean, I get that you were talking about working together with China to make this happen. I just think that's a laughably unrealistic scenario. I feel like if China wanted Kim dead he would probably be dead.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #2857 on: June 15, 2018, 07:00:33 AM »
American neolibs: gee I wish we could sort out North Korea
Donald Trump: ok
neolibs: wait no not like this, this is bad, this is the worst thing ever can we please have war again

Sheesh, it's almost like you guys didn care about the lives of some 25 million people

Also, speaking of people saying the "right things" to manipulate someone, I love the propaganda video Trump brought to the summit. https://www.wsj.com/video/trump-shows-kim-short-video-to-pitch-peace-during-north-korea-summit/956F8365-EB90-4FE6-B1B0-887821B1156C.html
I've always been a fan of "Work with China to assassinate Kim Jong Un and slowly integrate North Korea into China by having China take charge".
Yeah, I saw that.  Hilarious.

Oh sure, I mean, if what you're looking for is to start a war there's no surer way than assassinating a world leader.

I mean, I get that you were talking about working together with China to make this happen. I just think that's a laughably unrealistic scenario. I feel like if China wanted Kim dead he would probably be dead.
Maybe.  But I think Kim is causing more issues than he's worth and the big issue China faces with NK is a refugee crisis if war breaks out.  So installing their own puppet would ease tensions.  The US would seemingly gain nothing so NK wouldn't immediately go "Kill America!" and China gets a North Korea that isn't going to collapse and flood them with refugees.  And slowly they can turn NK into something more China like.

Re: Trump
« Reply #2858 on: June 15, 2018, 03:07:30 PM »
So, I won't dispute the fact that North Korea could be lying, given their clear precedent, but let's assume for a moment that that's not the case. Why do we need to "get" something in return for peace? Why is giving peace and prosperity a shot such a bad thing?

whether or not this piece of paper counts as peace and/or denuclearization is the essence of my argument.  i mean, sure, if i assume i'm wrong, then i'm not right.  but my argument is about the assumption you're making.  i don't think it's reasonable or realistic at all.

fwiw: 1) we don't need to get anything in return for peace; peace is the thing we're trying to get.  2) giving peace and prosperity a shot is always excellent; but, not every shot is equally excellent.  this was an especially bad one.

what do we have to lose?

in the worst case: we legitimate and embolden the kim regime in the international community, permanently fail to denuclearize the peninsula, and give up any leverage we have over the military situation there.  in the case of this particular summit, we achieved the first bit.

Quote from: daniel russel
North Korea’s most urgent priorities were to loosen the stranglehold of sanctions and to reduce the risk of a U.S. preventive attack or a “bloody nose” strike, all without being forced to relinquish the “treasured sword,” as Kim described them, of its nuclear weapons. Other priorities included using the lure of a peace treaty to undercut U.S.–South Korean military exercises and deployments, eroding the North’s isolation and pariah status, and obtaining economic assistance and investment on terms consistent with regime control and stability. Pyongyang also hoped to alleviate the pressure on the nuclear issue and criticism of its human rights record by finding ways to fracture the solidarity among the five main players: China, Japan, Russia, South Korea, and the United States. Kim sought to play them off against one another and strengthen the “accommodationist” camp in South Korea, which sees the South's alliance with the United States as an impediment to inter-Korean rapprochement.

By these measures, the Singapore summit has capped an astonishingly successful spring for Kim.
[...]
These outcomes, which have both practical and propaganda value, seem certain to strengthen Kim’s domestic standing and authority. Most important, the warm reception from the president of the United States has helped Kim normalize, if not legitimize, North Korea's status as a nuclear weapons state. Kim is not interested in the Libyan model; he’s interested in the Pakistani model.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #2859 on: June 18, 2018, 01:27:57 AM »
Democrats think Trump poses a greater threat to world peace and security than either Kim Jong-un or Putin:

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