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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #680 on: February 14, 2017, 11:48:07 PM »
lol.  so you think that being appointed national security advisor counts as being "one of the first in line on the swamp-draining train"?
Of course not, but you knew that much before you started typing. I think he was appointed because it seemed like a convenient thing to do (past popularity + lots of current Republican support = good if you're trying to get in bed with the Republicans), but he was also under more scrutiny than other Trump appointees (because he was an Obama person). Hence the rapid discovery of his controversial dealings and his prompt firing.

are you serious?
Always. Just stop putting words in my mouth and try to respond to what I'm saying. It's perfectly possible that I'm wrong, but I put more thought into what I say than you do into your strawman dismissals.

also flynn was forced out of the dia in 2014, not "appreciated by the previous administration."
Pointing out that he was being being kept afloat for 2 years among widespread criticism until the administration realised that they simply can't keep it going is definitely gonna give me what for. You go, Gary!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 11:59:06 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #681 on: February 15, 2017, 12:00:35 AM »
One of these days, Trump supporters are going to have to stop using Obama as a scapegoat for everything.
I think this is as good a time as any to reiterate that I'm not a Trump supporter.

Then why are you trying to deflect the blame onto Obama? Flynn was not where he was because of Obama. He hadn't worked under Obama for 2 years. Trump put him where he was. Not Obama.

Quote
Also, I think you misunderstood Lord Dave's comment. Flynn didn't "play the scapegoat card". Dave was implying that Flynn's letter
What letter? I thought he was referring to the tweet that Trekky brought up in the post directly preceding that of Dave's.

Yes, I was referring to the Tweet. I was contemplating the resignation letter at the same time, my mistake.

Quote
He was trying to be the scapegoat, not complaining about being the scapegoat.
He did complain, though, and we have it in writing.

See my edit. It was made before you posted your comment, but perhaps you didn't notice it before posting.

...Hence the rapid discovery of his controversial dealings and his prompt firing.

There wasn't a "rapid discovery and prompt firing". The administration was warned a month ago and did nothing. He only "retired" when the administration realized they couldn't keep it under wraps after a torrent of leaks. He had the full support of the administration right up until the point the leaks started poring in.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #682 on: February 15, 2017, 12:11:12 AM »
Then why are you trying to deflect the blame onto Obama?
I'm not. The blame is on Flynn and Flynn only. But Democratic fanboys are trying to deflect it onto Trump, and it's so, so entertaining to point out to them that Obama is 31 times as guilty as Trump.

Flynn was not where he was because of Obama.
Not solely, of course, but the 744 days probably helped.

He hadn't worked under Obama for 2 years.
744/365=~2.039. Yes, he had worked under Obama for 2 years.

Trump put him where he was. Not Obama.
Yes, I'm sure his history in government employment had no bearing in him being employed by the government.

See my edit. It was made before you posted your comment, but perhaps you didn't notice it before posting.
Fair enough, what you're saying now is much less nonsensical than what you were saying before. I still disagree thoroughly (if anything, it seems to me that Flynn is bringing extra attention to the scandal by blowing it out of proportion), but at least you're now not directly at odds with easily-verifiable facts.

There wasn't a "rapid discovery and prompt firing". The administration was warned a month ago and did nothing. He only "retired" when the administration realized they couldn't keep it under wraps after a torrent of leaks. He had the full support of the administration right up until the point the leaks started poring in.
So, exactly what happened under Obama, except 31 times shorter?

Look, your 31-times political tolerance factor aside, large organisations don't act quickly. 24 days is really quite good for an organisation of the White House's size to get someone fired. I realise that this is not a perfect comparison, but the timeline between the Ferguson riots and Thomas Jackson's "resignation" was something like 8 months. And that wasn't with just documents posted online, that was with crazy people looting and pillaging the streets for months. There seriously is very little precedent for more prompt firings in this context.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #683 on: February 15, 2017, 12:13:50 AM »
Ah, yes, that puts it in perspective in comparison to his 24 days of working with Trump before "resigning". We can now calculate the TotesNotReptilian-Obama Leniency Factor [TNR-OLF] given the following information:

Number of days for which it is TotesOK for Flynn to work under Obama: 744
Days for which it is TotesTerrible for Flynn to work under Trump: 24
TNR-OLF: 744/24=31

To conclude: Obama can do things 31 times as TotesTerrible as Trump without getting any TotesFlak. At 32 times, however, all bets are off!

That's a blatant strawman. Nobody is saying that Trump shouldn't have hired Flynn at all or that he wasn't fit to serve in government. This is about what he specifically did in December of 2016. At that point in time, he was firmly part of Trump's team.

Also, the media is reporting that the Twitter account is fake.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

Re: Trump
« Reply #684 on: February 15, 2017, 12:20:34 AM »
ninja edit: i didn't read your reply to totes, and some of this is addressed there.  i do still disagree that this isn't trump's fault.  he's the commander-in-chief.  he is responsible for every decision he makes and the decisions of his subordinates.  that's like, leadership 101.

personally the thing i hate most about trump is that he will never, ever, ever take responsibility for his actions.  he's gonna be the president of "the buck stops literally anywhere but here."

lol.  so you think that being appointed national security advisor counts as being "one of the first in line on the swamp-draining train"?
Of course not, but you knew that much before you started typing. I think he was appointed because it seemed like a convenient thing to do (past popularity + lots of current Republican support = good if you're trying to get in bed with the Republicans), but he was also under more scrutiny than other Trump appointees (because he was an Obama person). Hence the rapid discovery of his controversial dealings and his prompt firing.

are you serious?
Always. Just stop putting words in my mouth and try to listen to what I'm saying. It's perfectly possible that I'm wrong, but I put more thought into what I say than you do into your strawman dismissals.

fair enough, i was being a bit of a dick, and fwiw i do presume you've put thought into what you're saying; but, c'mon, i'm not making up "first in line on the swamp-draining train."  you're making it sound like flynn was some beloved obama holdover trump was just waiting to fuck up so trump could get rid of him. 

but obama fired flynn.  trump personally selected him.  as you say, flynn was a conservative darling during the primaries, consulting for other gop primary candidates, too.  i don't believe flynn was even a government official at the time of his selection.  i mean, if flynn wasn't in the swamp, how could be be first in line to be removed from it?

i just think it's a little ridiculous to pin flynn on the democrats and spin it like 'oh thank god trump finally got rid of that obama guy.'

Pointing out that he was being being kept afloat for 2 years among widespread criticism until the administration realised that they simply can't keep it going is definitely gonna give me what for. You go, Gary!

so now the problem is that obama didn't fire him fast enough?  how was the administration 'keeping him afloat'?  he had a three year service contract and they terminated it a year early because they didn't like the job he was doing.

i'm also not making up "a person appreciated by the previous administration."  or "the administration realised that they simply can't keep it going."  sorry if you think it's a strawman, but you're the one using language that implies this is someone the obama administration liked and supported and wanted to do the job in spite of widespread criticism.  btw i'm not sure how that jives with "He was [considered] super-good [by democrats] and everyone loved him under Obama's administration," but whatever.

the actual fact is that obama fired him and trump hired him.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 12:30:49 AM by garygreen »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #685 on: February 15, 2017, 12:33:01 AM »
... blah blah I'm so smart because I can utilize ambiguities in language to intentionally misinterpret what you are saying and then be smug and superior about it blah blah blah...

Do you have a setting for something besides peevish dick? Just curious.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #686 on: February 15, 2017, 12:39:55 AM »
I'm not. The blame is on Flynn and Flynn only. But Democratic fanboys are trying to deflect it onto Trump, and it's so, so entertaining to point out to them that Obama is 31 times as guilty as Trump.

It's possible that Flynn is the only responsible party here, which you seem to be taking for granted. When his boss is the President of the United States, though, people are understandably going to be skeptical about how much he was really in the dark about it. That's why further investigation is needed. And unless Flynn was accused of this same thing when he worked for Obama, bringing up the prior administration is irrelevant.

Quote
He hadn't worked under Obama for 2 years.
744/365=~2.039. Yes, he had worked under Obama for 2 years.

I believe what he means in this context is that it had been two years since Flynn had worked for Obama, discrediting the idea that he was a holdover from that administration.

Quote
large organisations don't act quickly. 24 days is really quite good for an organisation of the White House's size to get someone fired.

The National Security Advisor serves at the President's pleasure. He doesn't have to dive through hoops if he wants him gone.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #687 on: February 15, 2017, 12:41:33 AM »
Flynn only lasted 2 years under Obama before "retiring"
Ah, yes, that puts it in perspective in comparison to his 24 days of working with Trump before "resigning". We can now calculate the TotesNotReptilian-Obama Leniency Factor [TNR-OLF] given the following information:

Number of days for which it is TotesOK for Flynn to work under Obama: 744
Days for which it is TotesTerrible for Flynn to work under Trump: 24
TNR-OLF: 744/24=31

To conclude: Obama can do things 31 times as TotesTerrible as Trump without getting any TotesFlak. At 32 times, however, all bets are off!

The TNR-OLF could have been infinity, but unfortunately Trump picked him, and then only a week after Trump was informed of his communication with the Russian ambassador. There's no one to blame for this except Trump.

(In other words, "retire before we fire you")
So, exactly what happened this time too?

It's almost like he shouldn't have been rehired.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #688 on: February 15, 2017, 12:59:32 AM »
It's almost like he shouldn't have been rehired.
I agree. He was only hired because Trump thought it would earn him some brownie points with the establishment. It backfired, but it's still ridiculous that Trump gets flak for it when Obama didn't.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #689 on: February 15, 2017, 01:09:48 AM »
It's almost like he shouldn't have been rehired.
I agree. He was only hired because Trump thought it would earn him some brownie points with the establishment. It backfired, but it's still ridiculous that Trump gets flak for it when Obama didn't.

Flynn hadn't been let go by the previous administration when Obama hired him. Obama hired him, yes, and then he was let go for insubordination 2 years later. It was all on Trump to make the decision to rehire him, and even worse, it was on Trump to not renege on that or take any sort of action after finding out that Flynn communicated with the Russian ambassador and lied about it.

Re: Trump
« Reply #690 on: February 15, 2017, 02:14:45 AM »
"Trump's National Security Advisor Michael Flynn resigns after destabilization campaign by US spies, Democrats, press"

OK, Wikileaks. We're sorry you're sad.

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/831468455413030912

Re: Trump
« Reply #691 on: February 15, 2017, 04:17:07 AM »
According to the New York Times, the FBI has uncovered multiple communications between Trump aides and Russian intelligence during the campaign.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/us/politics/russia-intelligence-communications-trump.html


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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #692 on: February 15, 2017, 05:24:15 AM »
So, to clarify my statement: Flynn resigned (or was fired if you follow what Spicer says) so people would not look too deep at Trump on the subject.


I had forgotten he was an Obama appointee but that makes it even weirder Trump picked him.  At least to me.


The real question,then,is why he spoke to a Russian official in an illegal manner?  Maybe his boss told him to?  Or maybe he was just careless.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 05:36:10 AM by Lord Dave »

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Re: Trump
« Reply #693 on: February 15, 2017, 07:50:19 AM »
Flynn hadn't been let go by the previous administration when Obama hired him. [...] Obama hired him [...] he was let go [...] 2 years later.
Unless I missed an entire presidency, Obama's administration and the previous administration are one and the same. If I did miss a presidency in 2014 - my apologies, it was my intention for the two to be synonymous.

It was all on Trump to make the decision to rehire him
What is it with you and stating things which are both obvious and irrelevant?

even worse, it was on Trump to not renege on that or take any sort of action after finding out that Flynn communicated with the Russian ambassador and lied about it.
He literally booted him and now Flynn's likely going to be investigated. What more do you expect? What is your standard of action that should be taken? Am I right in suspecting that the same standard would be approximately 31 times more lenient when it comes to Obama?

I had forgotten he was an Obama appointee
The media did a great job at helping people forget. I wonder why that might be.

but that makes it even weirder Trump picked him.  At least to me.
If you look at the presidency through the prism of "Trump's some sort of crazy person with a personal vendetta against Obama", then yeah, it would seem that way. Once you discard the WaPo narrative, it's really not that surprising. Clearly a bad decision, yes, but not a surprising one. Good thing he corrected it so quickly, imagine the consequences if he let the guy stay for 2 years.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 07:57:25 AM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #694 on: February 15, 2017, 11:57:25 AM »
Flynn hadn't been let go by the previous administration when Obama hired him. [...] Obama hired him [...] he was let go [...] 2 years later.
Unless I missed an entire presidency, Obama's administration and the previous administration are one and the same. If I did miss a presidency in 2014 - my apologies, it was my intention for the two to be synonymous.

When Obama hired Flynn, he had not been let go by the administration that had been in office before Obama.
When Trump hired Flynn, he had been let go by the administration that had been in office before Trump.

I thought my language was real easy to understand, but apologies if it was confusing.


even worse, it was on Trump to not renege on that or take any sort of action after finding out that Flynn communicated with the Russian ambassador and lied about it.
He literally booted him and now Flynn's likely going to be investigated. What more do you expect? What is your standard of action that should be taken? Am I right in suspecting that the same standard would be approximately 31 times more lenient when it comes to Obama?

He booted him one hour after the Washington Post published their article about Flynn's communication with the Russian ambassador, when his activities could no longer be hidden. And even then, there's no evidence the White House asked for his resignation. Flynn says he delivered it himself. Further, I don't see what this whole comparison between Obama and Trump has to do with anything since, again, when Obama hired Flynn, Flynn did not have a history of insubordination, and Flynn did not communicate with the Russian ambassador, so what "31 times more lenient" are you even talking about? Where is the point of comparison?

It's like you're looking at a company that hired an employee who was fired from their previous job, and then when that employee steals, the company covers it up, and later fires him once the newspaper publishes a story on it, you claim we should also be mad at the previous employer for hiring him in the first place? What? That makes literally no sense.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 12:01:05 PM by trekky0623 »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #695 on: February 15, 2017, 12:15:34 PM »
I had forgotten he was an Obama appointee
The media did a great job at helping people forget. I wonder why that might be.
I wouldn't blame the media.  My memory is shit.

Quote
but that makes it even weirder Trump picked him.  At least to me.
If you look at the presidency through the prism of "Trump's some sort of crazy person with a personal vendetta against Obama", then yeah, it would seem that way. Once you discard the WaPo narrative, it's really not that surprising. Clearly a bad decision, yes, but not a surprising one. Good thing he corrected it so quickly, imagine the consequences if he let the guy stay for 2 years.
Ok, so I just did some reading up on the guy when he got removed by Obama and now I understand.  You're right, it does make sense.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #696 on: February 15, 2017, 12:47:32 PM »
Good thing he corrected it so quickly...

You mentioned before that this dismissal happened quickly considering the size of the organization, but considering Trump fired the Attorney General within 24hrs of expressing dissent, it appears Trump did sit on this for reasons other than red tape.  It is still good that Flynn is gone, but this was not a decisive move.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #697 on: February 15, 2017, 03:13:30 PM »
In other news, Senior policy advisor and Sean Spicer replacement Steve Miller has confirmed that Donald Trump is a dictator.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/12/trump-administration-considering-narrower-travel-ban

“Our opponents, the media and the whole world will soon see as we begin to take further actions, that the powers of the president to protect our country are very substantial and will not be questioned.”

This isn't out of context.  This isn't some cherry-picking word play.  This is real.  Every dictator, in the history of the world, has supporters.  And every dictator has said some form of that line: that they will protect their country and you will not question them.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #698 on: February 15, 2017, 03:43:17 PM »
You mentioned before that this dismissal happened quickly considering the size of the organization, but considering Trump fired the Attorney General within 24hrs of expressing dissent, it appears Trump did sit on this for reasons other than red tape.  It is still good that Flynn is gone, but this was not a decisive move.
I don't know whether I've voiced this before, but I thought firing the Attorney General happened outrageously quickly. I'm on the fence about whether or not Trump's reasoning for it was sound, but the timescale was downright scary.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #699 on: February 15, 2017, 05:39:12 PM »
You mentioned before that this dismissal happened quickly considering the size of the organization, but considering Trump fired the Attorney General within 24hrs of expressing dissent, it appears Trump did sit on this for reasons other than red tape.  It is still good that Flynn is gone, but this was not a decisive move.
I don't know whether I've voiced this before, but I thought firing the Attorney General happened outrageously quickly. I'm on the fence about whether or not Trump's reasoning for it was sound, but the timescale was downright scary.

True. Considering that timescale, it could be possible her firing was already in motion and her dissent was merely a perfect opportunity to fulfill that plan.