Re: Trump
« Reply #420 on: January 29, 2017, 12:06:01 AM »
i fail to see how this policy makes me any safer today than i was yesterday.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #421 on: January 29, 2017, 12:31:25 AM »
i fail to see how this policy makes me any safer today than i was yesterday.

The theory is there will be less Jihad in your backyard.  Your 0.1% chance of dying to Islamic terrorism just went down to 0.09%.  Show some gratitude.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #422 on: January 29, 2017, 12:44:50 AM »
The theory is there will be less Jihad in your backyard.

for sure, but i can't image how this could accomplish that.  i feel like i were an isis commander right now, my first thoughts would be "uh, we use iraqis to kill other iraqis, dummies.  just like we recruit americans to kill americans.  are u dudes even paying attention lmao."

or whatever the arabic equivalent of that is.  i assume lmao is directly translatable.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #423 on: January 29, 2017, 01:04:33 AM »
for sure, but i can't image how this could accomplish that.  i feel like i were an isis commander right now, my first thoughts would be "uh, we use iraqis to kill other iraqis, dummies.  just like we recruit americans to kill americans.  are u dudes even paying attention lmao."

or whatever the arabic equivalent of that is.  i assume lmao is directly translatable.

I think even this thought is too much credit to the problem.  We should be more concerned with developing safer seat belts than we are with homegrown jihadi.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #424 on: January 29, 2017, 01:36:46 AM »
i fail to see how this policy makes me any safer today than i was yesterday.

The theory is there will be less Jihad in your backyard.  Your 0.1% chance of dying to Islamic terrorism just went down to 0.09%.  Show some gratitude.

That's only in America. Go to Saudi Arabia or the rest of the world for that matter and that percentage goes higher. That's excluding the places where rape and violent crime are going up because of all these refugees.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #425 on: January 29, 2017, 02:10:31 AM »
That's only in America.

Well we are talking about America.

Quote
Go to Saudi Arabia or the rest of the world for that matter and that percentage goes higher. That's excluding the places where rape and violent crime are going up because of all these refugees.

Does it?  I genuinely don't know.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #426 on: January 29, 2017, 02:21:18 AM »
i fail to see how this policy makes me any safer today than i was yesterday.

The theory is there will be less Jihad in your backyard.  Your 0.1% chance of dying to Islamic terrorism just went down to 0.09%.  Show some gratitude.

That's only in America. Go to Saudi Arabia or the rest of the world for that matter and that percentage goes higher. That's excluding the places where rape and violent crime are going up because of all these refugees.

Trump just handed every would-be terrorist a righteous cause to justify striking against the US and drive recruitment. If you think this policy was a good idea and made the US safer, well... you may want to do some deep introspection of your own logic and motivations.

Re: Trump
« Reply #427 on: January 29, 2017, 02:30:37 AM »
Of course it doesn't make the US safer. This ban isn't going to stop terrorists from getting into the United States, not as long as places like Saudi Arabia or Egypt are not on the list. The only thing it has demonstrably done so far is hurt US residents by denying them entry, and entrapping current US residents inside the country for fear of not getting back in.

Re: Trump
« Reply #428 on: January 29, 2017, 03:04:38 AM »
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 03:07:43 AM by trekky0623 »

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Re: Trump
« Reply #429 on: January 29, 2017, 03:52:21 AM »
Little late here, but virtually all of the protections and freedoms under the Constitution are afforded to persons, not simply citizens. The Fifth Amendment even begins with "No person..." It's part of the reason I'm skeptical about any plans for a "deportation force" somehow cutting through the backlog of illegal immigrants. You can't just round them up and throw them out of the country en masse.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #430 on: January 29, 2017, 04:58:17 AM »
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Re: Trump
« Reply #431 on: January 29, 2017, 09:20:53 AM »
A federal judge issued an emergency stay that will prevent those with valid visas in the US from being sent back.

Edited for correctness.
Worth bearing in mind that, at least temporarily, this makes these people's situation even worse. Now they can neither be deported nor admitted into the country. Previously at least the former was an option.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38786660

Little late here, but virtually all of the protections and freedoms under the Constitution are afforded to persons, not simply citizens. The Fifth Amendment even begins with "No person..." It's part of the reason I'm skeptical about any plans for a "deportation force" somehow cutting through the backlog of illegal immigrants. You can't just round them up and throw them out of the country en masse.
You're partially correct, except illegal immigration is dealt with as an administrative, not criminal matter. To my understanding this hasn't changed over the past decades, so have an old explainer: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2001/09/do_noncitizens_have_constitutional_rights.html



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« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 10:41:06 AM by SexWarrior »
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #432 on: January 29, 2017, 11:23:57 AM »
A federal judge issued an emergency stay that will prevent those with valid visas in the US from being sent back.

Edited for correctness.
Worth bearing in mind that, at least temporarily, this makes these people's situation even worse. Now they can neither be deported nor admitted into the country. Previously at least the former was an option.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38786660
Really depends on their situation.  If I were fleeing a shit hole that had nothing but death for me, I'd be happy to be locked in an airport.
And it's not so bad.  Has no one seen "The Terminal"?

Re: Trump
« Reply #433 on: January 29, 2017, 02:15:11 PM »
Worth bearing in mind that, at least temporarily, this makes these people's situation even worse. Now they can neither be deported nor admitted into the country. Previously at least the former was an option.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38786660

Do you have any source that these people would be prevented from turning around and going home? That seems a direct contradiction of the judge's orders that these people not be detained at the airport, and though I can't find a source right now, I'm pretty sure this was addressed at the hearing and it was stated outright that she was not ordering these people be kept here.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #434 on: January 29, 2017, 03:12:58 PM »
Worth bearing in mind that, at least temporarily, this makes these people's situation even worse. Now they can neither be deported nor admitted into the country. Previously at least the former was an option.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38786660

Do you have any source that these people would be prevented from turning around and going home? That seems a direct contradiction of the judge's orders that these people not be detained at the airport, and though I can't find a source right now, I'm pretty sure this was addressed at the hearing and it was stated outright that she was not ordering these people be kept here.
Yeah. From the article I've linked (see quote above):

The ruling from federal Judge Ann Donnelly, in New York, prevented the removal from the US of people with approved refugee applications, valid visas, and "other individuals... legally authorised to enter the United States".

The emergency ruling also said there was a risk of "substantial and irreparable injury" to those affected.

Her ruling is not on the constitutionality of Mr Trump's executive order. What will happen to those still held at airports remains unclear.

It sure sounds like the only thing that changed is that they can no longer be removed from the country, which was previously their only way out.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 03:15:21 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #435 on: January 29, 2017, 03:27:11 PM »
Preventing removal is not the same as preventing someone from returning. Removal implies being ejected.

EDIT: This tweet is from Jackie Vino, from the National Immigration Law Center: https://twitter.com/JackieVimo/status/825522062970195969

Quote
US: "There are some people who might request to return to their country." Judge: "I'm not directing you to trap them here!"

She was tweeting excerpts from the hearing yesterday. Not a valid source, but that's where I heard this from.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 03:33:38 PM by trekky0623 »

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Re: Trump
« Reply #436 on: January 29, 2017, 04:01:12 PM »
Preventing removal is not the same as preventing someone from returning. Removal implies being ejected.
But they're currently being detained.

EDIT: This tweet is from Jackie Vino, from the National Immigration Law Center: https://twitter.com/JackieVimo/status/825522062970195969

Quote
US: "There are some people who might request to return to their country." Judge: "I'm not directing you to trap them here!"

She was tweeting excerpts from the hearing yesterday. Not a valid source, but that's where I heard this from.
I'm okay with taking that at face value, but even if that was said, current reporting on the issue seems to suggest that they haven't been released from detention, and that there isn't a clear way forward.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #437 on: January 29, 2017, 04:45:40 PM »
It's a clusterfuck that Trump dumped on everyone instantly and without any time to get the logistics and legality dealt with.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #438 on: January 29, 2017, 04:47:33 PM »
Yup. Putting aside the question of whether or not this was a reasonable plan in the first place for a moment, its implementation is absolutely abysmal. Putting it into effect so suddenly that it affected people who were already en route to the US is just crazy.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #439 on: January 29, 2017, 04:51:25 PM »
Little late here, but virtually all of the protections and freedoms under the Constitution are afforded to persons, not simply citizens. The Fifth Amendment even begins with "No person..." It's part of the reason I'm skeptical about any plans for a "deportation force" somehow cutting through the backlog of illegal immigrants. You can't just round them up and throw them out of the country en masse.
You're partially correct, except illegal immigration is dealt with as an administrative, not criminal matter. To my understanding this hasn't changed over the past decades, so have an old explainer: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2001/09/do_noncitizens_have_constitutional_rights.html

They don't get criminal trials, but there still needs to be some sort of process where people can plead their case to satisfy the due process requirement. That's what slows down the deporting of illegal immigrants, not leniency or a lack of manpower.
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