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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #200 on: January 17, 2017, 12:22:47 PM »
Can you tell us why you jumped to the conclusion this was a fake news story? What issues do you have with the chronology or causality?
Yeah, the original version of the article clashes with all other reports, e.g.: http://www.snopes.com/2017/01/16/greenwich-town-council-member-arrested-after-political-argument/ so I "jumped to the conclusion" that local news sources are probably closer to the truth than "Dead State".

Even now that the Daily Voice quote was added, the paragraph just above it still illustrates the inconsistency.

And the kicker:

Quote
Police said video footage from a surveillance camera on the day of the incident is consistent with the sequence of events described by the complainant.
Yes, the complainant is almost certainly correct (I'll wait for the trial before dropping the "almost"). I'm not sure why you thought why that was "the kicker" in responding to me.

You've demonstrated no justification for spinning the story to be something else than what it is. An old pervy guy with a history of misdemeanour did a very shitty thing and got arrested for it. That's a good thing, and hardly breaking news until Occupy Democrats got on the case.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 12:33:02 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #201 on: January 17, 2017, 01:14:16 PM »
Yeah, the original version of the article clashes with all other reports, e.g.: http://www.snopes.com/2017/01/16/greenwich-town-council-member-arrested-after-political-argument/ so I "jumped to the conclusion" that local news sources are probably closer to the truth than "Dead State".

Even now that the Daily Voice quote was added, the paragraph just above it still illustrates the inconsistency.

The quote has been there at least since Mollete posted the story here yesterday at 2 pm ET. (My mistake, 4:22 pm is the earliest Wayback Machine has it.) As far as I can tell, no quote was "added".

And I still can't tell what you are referring to that is inconsistent.

You've demonstrated no justification for spinning the story to be something else than what it is. An old pervy guy with a history of misdemeanour did a very shitty thing and got arrested for it.

Which is what Dead State reported as well. So I'm still confused as to which part is "fake news," like you said. It sounds like you're disagreeing with Mollete's post, not the article.

That's a good thing, and hardly breaking news until Occupy Democrats got on the case.

I honestly don't know who Occupy Democrats is or how they are related to this story.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 01:20:54 PM by trekky0623 »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #202 on: January 17, 2017, 01:20:02 PM »
You CAN grab them by the pussy and a near majority of people in America will support you.

What makes you say that?

While Mollete is correct, it's more along this line:
"I love this new world, I no longer have to be politically correct."
Which followed shortly after by a sexual grab. 

But, given what was said and his previous history, I'm going to retract my statement.  If the man was a perv to begin with, then his comments have no actual linkage to his actions aside from him making a point to the woman in question. 

I will still stand by my assertion that this man, even if convicted, could still successfully run for and win office.  He just needs to say the right things to do it.

Re: Trump
« Reply #203 on: January 17, 2017, 01:52:42 PM »
I guess it was wrong of me to directly link this guy's pervy behavior to Trump given that he has always been pervy, but he did pretty clearly insinuate "The president-elect is politically incorrect a perv, which means that my political incorrectness perviness is no longer an issue."

(Obviously it is still an issue since he did get arrested, but the thought process is still quite troubling.)

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #204 on: January 17, 2017, 02:45:07 PM »
The quote has been there at least since Mollete posted the story here yesterday at 2 pm ET. (My mistake, 4:22 pm is the earliest Wayback Machine has it.) As far as I can tell, no quote was "added".
Yeah, I read the article before that. I've read it on the 15th of January. I guess I should have double-checked that it hadn't been edited before slamming it, so my bad on that.

And I still can't tell what you are referring to that is inconsistent.
Have you tried reading the paragraph I pointed you to?

It sounds like you're disagreeing with Mollete's post, not the article.
No, I'm disagreeing with the article as it originally stood.

I honestly don't know who Occupy Democrats is or how they are related to this story.
Yes, because you're not reading people's arguments before responding to them. If you looked at the Snopes article I've provided, you'd know Occupy Democrats' involvement.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #205 on: January 17, 2017, 02:56:53 PM »
Are you referring to this part?

Quote
As the woman turned to walk away, Keyserling reportedly reach from behind and placed his hand between her legs and pinched on or near her genital area.

Because that's what was reported in the Daily Voice, which the article gets its information from. It only differs from the Greenwich Time in saying groin rather than behind, but it is the Greenwich Time that is wrong on that count, according to the Snopes article you linked.

Is that what is making you call it "fake news"? Because if so, I don't think you know what the term means.

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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #206 on: January 17, 2017, 04:03:59 PM »
The quote has been there at least since Mollete posted the story here yesterday at 2 pm ET. (My mistake, 4:22 pm is the earliest Wayback Machine has it.) As far as I can tell, no quote was "added".
Yeah, I read the article before that. I've read it on the 15th of January. I guess I should have double-checked that it hadn't been edited before slamming it, so my bad on that.

And I still can't tell what you are referring to that is inconsistent.
Have you tried reading the paragraph I pointed you to?

It sounds like you're disagreeing with Mollete's post, not the article.
No, I'm disagreeing with the article as it originally stood.

I honestly don't know who Occupy Democrats is or how they are related to this story.
Yes, because you're not reading people's arguments before responding to them. If you looked at the Snopes article I've provided, you'd know Occupy Democrats' involvement.

Would you please just spell out whatever it is that you're hinting at? I feel like you do this kind of thing all the time - communicate your point very vaguely, get defensive when whoever you're talking with doesn't read your mind, and spend the next several posts snarkily accusing them of being disingenuous while offering little to no clarification on your original point. You're not surrounded by a conspiracy of devious liars. If someone doesn't seem to understand your point, it's almost certainly not deliberate on their part.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #207 on: January 17, 2017, 04:13:08 PM »
Would you please just spell out whatever it is that you're hinting at?
I'd really prefer if people would simply read the source text they're provided with. Because, well, it usually works, and it worked just now. After I forced Trekky to actually read the articles, he managed to find the inconsistency himself. Well, sort of. He highlighted the right line of text, at least. With a little bit more effort, he might even process it.

I don't understand what you think there is to gain in me rewriting Snopes's article myself. I'd do a worse job than they did.

Because that's what was reported in the Daily Voice, which the article gets its information from.
If you ignore everything that happened in-between, sure. But ignoring everything that happened in-between to give it a fake sense of immediate reaction is patently dishonest.

Is that what is making you call it "fake news"? Because if so, I don't think you know what the term means.
Nice meme bro. It's a news story that's partly based on facts, which just happens to twist the details to deliver a certain narrative. And mollete's post here illustrates that it worked. Now, if you have something constructive to add (n.b. not "lol if u think dis then u dont kno things"), go ahead!

I feel like you do this kind of thing all the time - communicate your point very vaguely, get defensive when whoever you're talking with doesn't read your mind, and spend the next several posts snarkily accusing them of being disingenuous while offering little to no clarification on your original point.
There's a small handful of people here who make up their mind about what an argument is (n.b. not just whether or not the argument stands up to scrutiny, but rather its very substance) without hearing it out. I'll always mock that, because it is deserving of nothing less. if Trekky truly read the article, which names Occupy Democrats by name and points out their actions, then a response along the lines of "I don't know who OD are or what they did" is just... strange.

You're not surrounded by a conspiracy of devious liars. If someone doesn't seem to understand your point, it's almost certainly not deliberate on their part.
Of course not. It's just a few people (I'm counting 3 in my head right now) who genuinely believe in what they say -- so much that they won't bother evaluating the other side's points, so instead they make assumptions, and in those assumptions they make critical mistakes. We've got the odd liar or two too, but hey ho.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 04:26:59 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #208 on: January 17, 2017, 05:01:39 PM »
Did or did not Keyserling pinch the woman in question in the genital area? Dead State, the Daily Voice, and her own affidavit all claim that he did. I don't even know which pedantic detail you're referring to anymore that causes you to label the entire article as "fake", which makes zero sense for any meaning of the word "fake".

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #209 on: January 17, 2017, 05:08:50 PM »
Did or did not Keyserling pinch the woman in question in the genital area?
Probably. Almost certainly. The evidence seems to point to it quite clearly, but I'll wait for the court to decide.

I don't even know which pedantic detail you're referring to anymore that causes you to label the entire article as "fake", which makes zero sense for any meaning of the word "fake".
[emphasis mine]

Well, since you insist:

Strictly speaking, fake news is completely made up and designed to deceive readers to maximise traffic and profit.

But the definition is often expanded to include websites that circulate distorted, decontextualised or dubious information through – for example – clickbaiting headlines that don’t reflect the facts of the story, or undeclared bias.

With nearly all online media motivated to some extent by views, a publication doesn’t have to be written by teenagers in Macedonia to perpetuate misinformation. The very structure of the web enables what BuzzFeed’s head of data science calls “not-fake-but-not-completely-true information”.
[emphasis mine]

See, what happened here is you were the one who decided to cling to a "pedantic detail". You couldn't help but project it, either!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 05:12:46 PM by SexWarrior »
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #210 on: January 17, 2017, 05:24:06 PM »
I think his whole point is that the article in question uses language and paragraph placement to suggest that his actions are the result of Trump being elected.


Though I wonder... what's the difference between fake news and propaganda?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #211 on: January 17, 2017, 07:05:10 PM »
I think his whole point is that the article in question uses language and paragraph placement to suggest that his actions are the result of Trump being elected.


Though I wonder... what's the difference between fake news and propaganda?

Propaganda is used to prop up a certain message whereas fake news can just be for lulz.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #212 on: January 17, 2017, 08:23:46 PM »
I think his whole point is that the article in question uses language and paragraph placement to suggest that his actions are the result of Trump being elected.
At least initially, I didn't mean to directly focus on why the words and omissions were picked the way they were, but I did think that was the reason, yes. In retrospect, I should have made a stronger connection from the get go instead of separating the issues.

Though I wonder... what's the difference between fake news and propaganda?
The use of the term varies a lot between users, probably because the definition has been evolving so rapidly over the past few months. Some say that "fake news" is an umbrella term (which would then encompass propaganda, or at least overlap a lot), while others stick with the traditional meaning of "entirely made up story; not news" (in which case propaganda would be an entirely separate thing).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 08:28:31 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #213 on: January 17, 2017, 08:52:08 PM »
The original article doesn't even mention Trump. If people are making the connection, it's because a GOP politician remarking about political correctness (which he did, according to the affidavit) and then pinching the victim's genital area (which he did, according to the affidavit) evoke memories of things said by a certain other GOP politician.

The article is not fake news. Literally zero of what it said was untrue, it didn't mention anything about Trump, and even if it did, there's a difference between bias and fake news.

Re: Trump
« Reply #214 on: January 17, 2017, 08:53:56 PM »
The original article doesn't even mention Trump. If people are making the connection, it's because a GOP politician remarking about political correctness (which he did, according to the affidavit) and then pinching the victim's genital area (which he did, according to the affidavit) evoke memories of things said by a certain other GOP politician.

The article is not fake news. Literally zero of what it said was untrue, it didn't mention anything about Trump, and even if it did, there's a difference between bias and fake news.

I read the article, and the way it was framed pretty much said "Donald Trump won, so I don't have to be PC anymore, then 'grabbed' her vagina." It was written in the same exact format as every other bad things that ever happens that they want to construe as a symptom of the super scary "Trump's America"

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #215 on: January 17, 2017, 09:11:39 PM »
The original article doesn't even mention Trump. If people are making the connection, it's because a GOP politician remarking about political correctness (which he did, according to the affidavit) and then pinching the victim's genital area (which he did, according to the affidavit) evoke memories of things said by a certain other GOP politician.
An interesting perspective.

The article is not fake news. Literally zero of what it said was untrue, it didn't mention anything about Trump, and even if it did, there's a difference between bias and fake news.
I'm not calling the article biased. If you're making that connection, it's because <masterful analysis of what you're thinking, because I know your thoughts best>

Anyway, yes, the article is fake news. It makes deliberate omissions and messes with the timeline of events. You've successfully identified these omissions, even quoting the deceptive line in this thread. You could try to argue they're unimportant or insignificant to you, but regardless of that a well-placed omission of truth is a lie.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 09:16:07 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #216 on: January 17, 2017, 09:21:47 PM »
Anyway, yes, the article is fake news. It makes deliberate omissions and messes with the timeline of events.

No, it doesn't. I've pointed out where the Greenwich Time makes a minor factual error, but the original article does not. I guess I'm just being a moron, and I wish you'd just point out the error instead of running around in circles claiming the article is bullshit.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #217 on: January 17, 2017, 09:34:00 PM »
I wish you'd just point out the error instead of running around in circles claiming the article is bullshit.
Are you referring to this part?
Quote
As the woman turned to walk away, Keyserling reportedly reach from behind and placed his hand between her legs and pinched on or near her genital area.
Yes, I'm referring to this part, at least among others. But okay, let's spell it out:

Pre-quote-insertion, the article omits all events between von Keyserling talking about "political correctness" and the alleged misdemeanour. But even right now it also entirely omits the context of him saying "It would be your word against mine and nobody will believe you." It also omits the fact that he has a history of misdemeanour, because that doesn't fit the narrative they wanted to build - in fact, it suggests that he doesn't have such a history, through a quote from his lawyer. In other words, the article lies by omission in order to send a message that a truthful account of the story wouldn't have sent. It is fake news.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 09:37:36 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #218 on: January 17, 2017, 09:37:48 PM »
Ah, now I know why you were avoiding saying it. Don't hurt yourself reaching that far.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #219 on: January 17, 2017, 09:41:53 PM »
Ah, now I know why you were avoiding saying it.
I wasn't avoiding anything. You posted a quote, asked if that's what it is, and I said yes. I also explained that you're ignoring everything that happened in-between the bits that were reported. Nice try, though.

Don't hurt yourself reaching that far.
It's done the job. Most people here who fell for the story now have an understanding of the full context, and we've seen opinions change here. Sorry that your attempts at shilling were so futile. If you think presenting people with an untrue and tendentious version of the story is worth defending, I can't help you with that.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 09:44:48 PM by SexWarrior »
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