*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6907
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12800 on: April 08, 2025, 09:29:40 PM »
I gave you the name of the organization it came from, the Council of Economic Advisors. This is an Executive Branch organization which advises the President of the United States on economic policy.
Yes. So?
Are you doing an appeal to authority here? They're his economic advisors so they're very very clever and know what they're doing, is that it?
I notice you do that sort of thing on here at times but you do it very selectively.
Yes, his advisors are economists. But I looked up that dude you posted the video of. His economic ideas are not widely accepted.
Lots of other economists are queuing up to say how bone-headed these tariffs are.

Quote
Considering this, why would you keep going back to the standup math comedian you posted?
He's mostly explaining the maths of the equation. Pointing out how the terms 0.25 an 4 cancel out, which renders them pointless, and explaining what that formula means. He then opines that it's a pretty stupid thing to base policy on - he's not an economist so OK, it's just his opinion. But as I said a LOT of economists are saying it too.

Basically the underlying premise is that if a country is exporting more to the US than they are importing from the US then the country is somehow ripping the US off. But that's obvious bollocks, isn't it? It's far too simplistic. One example I heard talked about was Lesotho. They're a very poor country in Africa so consequently import very little from the US because they can't afford to. But they have diamond mines so they export a lot of diamonds to the US. They've been hit with a massive tariff because of the big difference between imports an exports. But that doesn't make any sense. Very few diamonds are produced in the US so you have to import them. So all this tariff means is prices of diamonds will go up for US citizens. Or you'll just import them less from Lesotho and more from other African countries. So that will push Lesotho further in to poverty.
Now obviously you don't care about that - the Trump version of the Bible is very much "fuck thy neighbour".
But it's an example of how stupid these policies are and how little they will achieve.

Tariffs aren't a good thing. Or a bad thing. They're just a mechanism. They should be used strategically, not using an Excel formula.
There's nothing actually wrong with the formula in and of itself, it's just not the sole basis on which you should be making policy.
There's no strategy behind this - or, rather, it's just massively flawed and far too simplistic.
It's just characteristic of this administration. It's like how they blundered into the public sector and hacked away with no strategy.
Then they invited a journalist into a Signal chat about a live military operation.
These are not serious or competent people, they shouldn't be in charge of any country, let alone the most powerful one on earth.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

*

Offline honk

  • *
  • Posts: 3639
  • resident goose
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12801 on: April 09, 2025, 01:57:39 AM »
In these times of austere cost-cutting and a rapidly plummeting economy, it's nice to know that Trump is revisiting his plans for an extravagant military parade to shore up his manhood:

https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/761814/trump-parade-military-dc/

https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/07/politics/trump-plans-military-parade-washington/index.html
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 11023
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12802 on: April 09, 2025, 03:43:31 AM »
Yes. So?
Are you doing an appeal to authority here? They're his economic advisors so they're very very clever and know what they're doing, is that it? I notice you do that sort of thing on here at times but you do it very selectively.

What? You were just asking for an authority behind the equation, claiming that Trump doesn't know what he is doing. The authority you asked for was provided. It's the Council of Economic Advisers. This overshadows your stand up math comedian, and pretty much any other source posted.

Quote from: AATW
Yes, his advisors are economists. But I looked up that dude you posted the video of. His economic ideas are not widely accepted.

Irrelevant. While Peter Navarro is tangentially involved, he isn't on the Council of Economic Advisers.

Quote from: AATW
Lots of other economists are queuing up to say how bone-headed these tariffs are.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/information-resources/ - I see a list of fourteen PhDs on the Council. Aside from the fact that they were specifically asked to be the country's economic advisors because they were the best in the country, we simply have a group of experts who spent time working on this. Have you named a group of experts who spent time together analyzing this in an organized manner? No. You have a disorganized collection of articles from individuals.

Quote from: AATW
There's no strategy behind this - or, rather, it's just massively flawed and far too simplistic.

Wrong. This Tariff strategy was visualized years ago, and forms the basis of Project 2025 by the Heritage Foundation. This article shows that everything has been blueprinted by economists, from the reciprocal tariffs, to the specific countries targeted with higher tariffs. Project 2025 also calls for government downsizing and immigration enforcement, which we have already seen put into motion. Contrary to your uninformed statements, there is a plan for all of this.

Quote from: AATW
One example I heard talked about was Lesotho. They're a very poor country in Africa so consequently import very little from the US because they can't afford to. But they have diamond mines so they export a lot of diamonds to the US. They've been hit with a massive tariff because of the big difference between imports an exports. But that doesn't make any sense. Very few diamonds are produced in the US so you have to import them. So all this tariff means is prices of diamonds will go up for US citizens. Or you'll just import them less from Lesotho and more from other African countries. So that will push Lesotho further in to poverty.

I am not moved by your argument at all. First of all, you are basically rooting for horrible mining conditions and sweatshops. Secondly, your strategy of giving diamond hucksters equal or preferential treatment for scamming us sounds pretty stupid to me. Diamonds are a scam and are virtually worthless. If people buy less of them, they are better off for it.

French wine is pretty much regular wine that is flipped as a luxury brand and scammed to the public as superior. Brands like Gucci and Prada are scamming people to the tune of millions of dollars. None of those industries deserve to be treated fairly for taking advantage of people through psychology and taking their money.

To a lesser extent, many of the general products shipped from overseas are pretty much low value, and sold for 10-30x the price of wholesale. The tarrifs apply the price of wholesale, not the price of retail. The tarrifs can increase to 500% and the companies will still profit. So far Trump has imposed relatively small tarrifs, and the reaction of crocodile tears outsizes the reality of the situation. This is objectively insignificant, but we have to listen to your politically-motivated rants against it. All of this amounts to outrage spam from people who are either ignorant or deceitful.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2025, 01:03:24 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 3539
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12803 on: April 09, 2025, 12:22:24 PM »
the equation for calculating the tariffs comes from the Council of Economic Advisors, not the bullshit equation you and the video you love are referring to.
It's the same equation.
You, as usual, are dead fucking wrong, flat-out lying, or just ignorant.

Navarro never stated that "equation," came from the Council of Economic Advisors.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2025, 12:27:26 PM by Action80 »
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6907
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12804 on: April 09, 2025, 12:36:58 PM »
Navarro never stated that "equation," came from the Council of Economic Advisors.
Your argument appears to be with Tom, not me.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 3539
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12805 on: April 09, 2025, 12:47:56 PM »
Navarro never stated that "equation," came from the Council of Economic Advisors.
Your argument appears to be with Tom, not me.
Make no mistake, my argument is with you.

You said:
It's the same equation.
Navarro just said the method for calculating tariffs came from the Council, not that specific equation.

You are the one who introduced a bullshit, ChatGPT, generated piece of shit equation into the goddamn conversation in the first place.

I don't giva fuck whether Tom fell for it or not.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6907
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12806 on: April 09, 2025, 01:02:46 PM »


lol
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 8314
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12807 on: April 09, 2025, 01:08:50 PM »
Does it matter where the equation came from?
If you plug in the numbers and they spit out what Trump showed on his board... It's the equation used.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6907
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12808 on: April 09, 2025, 01:33:51 PM »
Does it matter where the equation came from?
If you plug in the numbers and they spit out what Trump showed on his board... It's the equation used.
Right.
It's what they said they used. You can check yourself it's what they used - it's one of the things shown in that first video I posted.
I suppose it's vaguely relevant that the equation came from some economic group rather than made up on the spot on a napkin.
And the formula isn't some nonsense - I mean, it's a bit silly that they plugged in values of 4 and 0.25 which cancel out, but I guess you could argue those terms are needed because other values could be put in. But the formula does show you something. It's just not a something which you should be basing sweeping policies on. It's all based on the underlying premise that if the US is exporting less to a country than it's importing from the country then the country is in some way ripping the US off and so they need to balance the books. Which is obvious and overly simplistic bullshit.
EDIT: And I continue to not understand why Trump is being allowed to set these policies himself without it going through Congress. I've read his using - misusing really, powers that were intended to be used in emergency situations which doesn't apply right now.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2025, 01:37:20 PM by AATW »
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: Trump
« Reply #12809 on: April 09, 2025, 02:19:35 PM »
Don't know what formula China is using; they've just come back with an increase of 50%, to 84% on American imports.  Effective tomorrow. 

Well that was totally unexpected.  (Not). 

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6907
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12810 on: April 09, 2025, 02:40:31 PM »
Irrelevant. While Peter Navarro is tangentially involved, he isn't on the Council of Economic Advisers.
lol. Literally two pages ago you said he was "trade advisor Peter Novoro, a Harvard PhD" and said he was "explaining the strategy behind the tariffs". And again, even if the Council of Economic Advisers provided the formula that isn't really relevant. There's nothing wrong with the formula itself. It's just an utterly bone-headed basis for sweeping policies.

By the way, do you know how Navarro even got involved with the Trump administration?
The story goes that Trump asked Jared Kushner to find him an economic expert. Kushner went on Amazon to look at books written by economists and found one called "Death by China" by...Peter Navarro.
Through the book Navarro quotes an expert called "Ron Vara" who...doesn't exist.
Ron Vara is just an anagram of Navarro.
And now Navarro is the senior counselor for trade and manufacturing to U.S. president.

The people running your country are not serious. But I see you're back to the old thisisfine.jpg thing.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2025, 02:43:37 PM by AATW »
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 8314
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12811 on: April 09, 2025, 02:42:44 PM »
Does it matter where the equation came from?
If you plug in the numbers and they spit out what Trump showed on his board... It's the equation used.
Right.
It's what they said they used. You can check yourself it's what they used - it's one of the things shown in that first video I posted.
I suppose it's vaguely relevant that the equation came from some economic group rather than made up on the spot on a napkin.
And the formula isn't some nonsense - I mean, it's a bit silly that they plugged in values of 4 and 0.25 which cancel out, but I guess you could argue those terms are needed because other values could be put in. But the formula does show you something. It's just not a something which you should be basing sweeping policies on. It's all based on the underlying premise that if the US is exporting less to a country than it's importing from the country then the country is in some way ripping the US off and so they need to balance the books. Which is obvious and overly simplistic bullshit.
EDIT: And I continue to not understand why Trump is being allowed to set these policies himself without it going through Congress. I've read his using - misusing really, powers that were intended to be used in emergency situations which doesn't apply right now.

Congress delegated that power to the executive branch long ago.  Now they have a bill to undo that a bit.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 3539
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12812 on: April 09, 2025, 04:39:04 PM »
^More "expurtt" analysis from the ilk:

"expurtts" = A group of persons firmly on the side of Occupy Wall Street are complaining about how badly the market is doing.

LMMFAO!
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

*

Offline WTF_Seriously

  • *
  • Posts: 1352
  • Nobody Important
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12813 on: April 09, 2025, 04:56:56 PM »
Congress delegated that power to the executive branch long ago.  Now they have a bill to undo that a bit.

My understanding is Cheeto is using a law granting the President powers to circumvent Congress by declaring a national state of emergency which I believe he did declaring an economic state of emergency which, of course, doesn't exist.  The legislature has the ability to vote to terminate that declaration which is what is being brought to Congress to vote on.  Problem is, the disphits of this country gave republicans, specifically  MAGA morons like MTG, the majority in both chambers so it's not a simple act to get such a resolution passed.
I hope you understand we're maintaining a valuable resource here....

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 8314
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12814 on: April 09, 2025, 05:12:34 PM »
^More "expurtt" analysis from the ilk:

"expurtts" = A group of persons firmly on the side of Occupy Wall Street are complaining about how badly the market is doing.

LMMFAO!
Well... My parents have a 401k and a large chunk of people work for big companies that tend to lay off employees when their stock value drops.

So... Yeah, I care.  You don't because, obviously, you're too poor to notice anything.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6907
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12815 on: April 09, 2025, 05:54:07 PM »
Lol. And now he’s pausing the higher tariffs for loads of countries and China now at 125%.

It’s good that he isn’t just making it up as he goes along.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 11023
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12816 on: April 09, 2025, 06:10:06 PM »
You guys just need to stop. Stocks increased tremendously today. The Dow surged by 2000 points for biggest rally in 5 years, despite Trump increasing the tariffs on one of America's biggest trading partners, China, from 104% to 125%.

https://tradytics.com/overall-market

« Last Edit: April 09, 2025, 06:20:19 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 8314
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12817 on: April 09, 2025, 06:33:27 PM »
You guys just need to stop. Stocks increased tremendously today. The Dow surged by 2000 points for biggest rally in 5 years, despite Trump increasing the tariffs on one of America's biggest trading partners, China, from 104% to 125%.

https://tradytics.com/overall-market



Didn't you just say how making it lower was good?

Also, this is because he just paused almost all the tariffs.  Why?  If this was the best solutions why stop it when it barely started?
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 3539
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12818 on: April 09, 2025, 06:55:44 PM »
Well... My parents have a 401k and a large chunk of people work for big companies that tend to lay off employees when their stock value drops.

So... Yeah, I care.  You don't because, obviously, you're too poor to notice anything.
Well, this tells everyone here you were part of the Occupy Wall Street, roundly cheering on the market collapse in 2008.

By the way, losing interest gains is part of the market as everyone knows. Cannot help it if your parents were too stupid to find reliable employment and they raised someone who would go on to cheer loudly for economic collapse.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 8314
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #12819 on: April 09, 2025, 08:38:26 PM »
Well... My parents have a 401k and a large chunk of people work for big companies that tend to lay off employees when their stock value drops.

So... Yeah, I care.  You don't because, obviously, you're too poor to notice anything.
Well, this tells everyone here you were part of the Occupy Wall Street, roundly cheering on the market collapse in 2008.

By the way, losing interest gains is part of the market as everyone knows. Cannot help it if your parents were too stupid to find reliable employment and they raised someone who would go on to cheer loudly for economic collapse.

No, I was not. Not sure how you think I was when I'm saying big drops are bad.  Must be opposite day.

Also, reliable employment?  You know that no employment is reliable if your company lays off people, right?  Fortunately, they haven't.  Nor have I.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.