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Offline rabinoz

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The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« on: November 06, 2016, 01:54:45 AM »
I have posted essentially the same material numerous times here and on The Flat Earth Society, Forum and I have never had a satisfactory answer.

This is what "the Wiki" says (bits about solar eclipse etc, removed for brevity):
Quote from: The Wiki
The Lunar Eclipse
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
A Lunar Eclipse occurs about twice a year when a satellite of the sun passes between the sun and moon.

This satellite is called the Shadow Object. Its orbital plane is tilted at an angle of about 5°10' to the sun's orbital plane[1], making eclipses possible only when the three bodies (Sun, Object, and Moon) are aligned and when the moon is crossing the sun's orbital plane (at a point called the node).    . . . . . . .  A lunar eclipse can be seen from the entire half of the earth beneath the moon at that time.
   . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

The shadow object is never seen because it orbits close to the sun.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
It is estimated that the Shadow Object is around five to ten miles in diameter. Since it is somewhat close to the sun the manifestation of its penumbra upon the moon appears as a magnified projection. This is similar to how during a shadow puppet show your hand's shadow can make a large magnified projection upon your bedroom wall as you move it closer to the flashlight.
From The Lunar Eclipse

This is my interpretation of that geometry. In this diagram the size of the objects has been enlarged (or they would be almost invisible), but the locations are approximately to scale:


With the "shadow object" so small, it is quite impossible for the it to cast any significant shadow on the moon. Almost all of the sunlight will shine around it.

If my interpretation of the geometry or light paths is incorrect, I would love to be informed, but please no massive refraction or magnification in the atmoplane, there is no atmoplane 5,000 km up!

So, I claim that "the Wiki" explanation of the Lunar Eclipse is completely incorrect, so what is the true cause of a Lunar Eclipse.

Some will I ask why I am asking the same question over and over. The answer to that is simple - it has not yet been answered.


[1] If the "shadow object" can never be seen, how was the inclination of its orbit determined, for we are told "Its orbital plane is tilted at an angle of about 5°10' to the sun's orbital plane"?
      I can guess, that's simply been "borrowed" from the measured orbital inclination of the moon by astronomers!
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 05:13:18 AM by rabinoz »

Offline geckothegeek

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2016, 05:42:44 AM »
Other questions I have :
In the diagram in the OP, the sun is shown as omni-directonal, shining on the moon and illuminating the moon.
But.......According to one flat earth statement, the sun "acts like a spotlight" and shines down on the earth.
But........If so, how does light from the sun reach the moon  ?
But......Another flat earth statement is that the moon is self-illuminated.
But.....This would seem to be more in line with the "shadow object"  ?
But......Do the moon and the sun, which are stated to be at the same altitude and size, travel at the same speed in their orbits ?
But......If they travel at the same speed are they always separated by 180 degrees ?
But......If they travel at even slightly different speeds, it would seem there would be a collision at some time between the sun and the moon when one overtook the other  ? 
Could some flat earther clear up this seeming confusion ?
And I have read the FAQ, the wiki, excerpts from ENAG and The Sacred Texts
I knew a fellow worker, a very devout "Hard Shell Baptist" , who would only read from The King James Version because it was "The Authorized Version."
Do "Hard Shell Flat Earthers" only accept the writings of Rowbotham as their "Authorized Versiion" ?

 "It has not yet been answered."
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 04:37:15 AM by geckothegeek »
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Offline geckothegeek

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2016, 04:33:17 AM »
I realize that this is rather hypothetical of course and I won't be offended if both "round" and "flat" earthers ridicule it to death.  :o ;D

Assuming the flat earth moon is 32 miles in diameter and the dark or shadow object is 5 to 10 miles in diameter, would it be possible to view the transit of this dark or shadow object across the face of the flat earth sun as have the transits of Mercury and Venus have been viewed on the round earth sun ?

Which opens up another can of worms. Does this shadow object also fiigure in the ecliipse of the sun and could a flat earther explain this in his own words ?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 04:46:26 AM by geckothegeek »
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Offline geckothegeek

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2016, 04:56:55 AM »
I have posted essentially the same material numerous times here and on The Flat Earth Society, Forum and I have never had a satisfactory answer.

This is what "the Wiki" says (bits about solar eclipse etc, removed for brevity):
Quote from: The Wiki
The Lunar Eclipse
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
A Lunar Eclipse occurs about twice a year when a satellite of the sun passes between the sun and moon.

This satellite is called the Shadow Object. Its orbital plane is tilted at an angle of about 5°10' to the sun's orbital plane[1], making eclipses possible only when the three bodies (Sun, Object, and Moon) are aligned and when the moon is crossing the sun's orbital plane (at a point called the node).    . . . . . . .  A lunar eclipse can be seen from the entire half of the earth beneath the moon at that time.
   . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

The shadow object is never seen because it orbits close to the sun.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
It is estimated that the Shadow Object is around five to ten miles in diameter. Since it is somewhat close to the sun the manifestation of its penumbra upon the moon appears as a magnified projection. This is similar to how during a shadow puppet show your hand's shadow can make a large magnified projection upon your bedroom wall as you move it closer to the flashlight.
From The Lunar Eclipse

This is my interpretation of that geometry. In this diagram the size of the objects has been enlarged (or they would be almost invisible), but the locations are approximately to scale:


With the "shadow object" so small, it is quite impossible for the it to cast any significant shadow on the moon. Almost all of the sunlight will shine around it.

If my interpretation of the geometry or light paths is incorrect, I would love to be informed, but please no massive refraction or magnification in the atmoplane, there is no atmoplane 5,000 km up!

So, I claim that "the Wiki" explanation of the Lunar Eclipse is completely incorrect, so what is the true cause of a Lunar Eclipse.

Some will I ask why I am asking the same question over and over. The answer to that is simple - it has not yet been answered.


[1] If the "shadow object" can never be seen, how was the inclination of its orbit determined, for we are told "Its orbital plane is tilted at an angle of about 5°10' to the sun's orbital plane"?
      I can guess, that's simply been "borrowed" from the measured orbital inclination of the moon by astronomers!

I haven't found much of anything about the flat earth and anything about it that  isn't completely incorrect.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 05:03:09 AM by geckothegeek »
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Offline Rounder

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2016, 05:04:24 AM »
Assuming the flat earth moon is 32 miles in diameter and the dark or shadow object is 5 to 10 miles in diameter, would it be possible to view the transit of this dark or shadow object across the face of the flat earth sun as have the transits of Mercury and Venus have been viewed on the round earth sun?
Well, in the real world Mercury is 1/285 the size of the sun, and we can see Mercury transits just fine.  In the FE world, the 'shadow object' is 1/6 to 1/3 the size of the sun, and yet somehow nobody has ever seen it...
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Offline rabinoz

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2016, 07:01:45 AM »
Well, in the real world Mercury is 1/285 the size of the sun, and we can see Mercury transits just fine.  In the FE world, the 'shadow object' is 1/6 to 1/3 the size of the sun, and yet somehow nobody has ever seen it...
Yet this shadow object can cast a shadow (the umbra) that is around four times the moon's apparent diameter.

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2016, 07:46:18 AM »
Whatever happened to giving FEers a week to answer? ;D
Where the senses fail us, reason must step in. - Galileo Galilei

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2016, 01:36:13 PM »
Whatever happened to giving FEers a week to answer? ;D
Well, once the discussion began there was no point waiting...
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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2016, 06:00:01 PM »
Whatever happened to giving FEers a week to answer? ;D
Well, once the discussion began there was no point waiting...

OK. Just thought I would ask.  ;D
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2016, 05:49:37 PM »
With the "shadow object" so small, it is quite impossible for the it to cast any significant shadow on the moon. Almost all of the sunlight will shine around it.

Please explain how and why sunlight would "shine around it" in space.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2016, 08:16:13 AM »
With the "shadow object" so small, it is quite impossible for the it to cast any significant shadow on the moon. Almost all of the sunlight will shine around it.

Please explain how and why sunlight would "shine around it" in space.
Do I really have to draw a picture? Your sun and moon are each some 32 miles in diameter and the "Shadow Object is around five to ten miles in diameter".

Please explain how a 10 mile diameter object can block all the light from a 32 mile diameter sun from a 32 mile diameter moon.

It does no matter where the shadow object is located, it cannot block much light.

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2016, 08:24:51 AM »
With the "shadow object" so small, it is quite impossible for the it to cast any significant shadow on the moon. Almost all of the sunlight will shine around it.

Please explain how and why sunlight would "shine around it" in space.

Here is an experiment you can observe. Get a spotlight with a 3" face. Draw a 3" circle on the wall. Position the light so it is fully illuminating the circle on the wall. Try to block all the light from reaching the circle with a quarter. Or your thumb. You can block some of the light but certainly not all of it. If the center of your beam is aimed directly at the circle you can hardly even notice the effect of the quarter or thumb no matter where you place it.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 08:45:48 AM by Boots »
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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2016, 07:39:50 PM »
I tried explain a lot of things yet I am sure that the lunar eclipse is caused the globe shadow.

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2016, 01:33:57 AM »
I tried explain a lot of things yet I am sure that the lunar eclipse is caused the globe shadow.

Then you believe that the earth is a globe and a lunar eclipse is not caused by some "shadow object" ?
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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2016, 01:53:12 AM »
I tried explain a lot of things yet I am sure that the lunar eclipse is caused the globe shadow.

Then you believe that the earth is a globe and a lunar eclipse is not caused by some "shadow object" ?
I do believe lunar eclipse caused by the shadow from Globe earth, by I do believe the earth to be very vivid and change phases from Concavity to flat(very short time of the year) to sphere. The best map I know today is to take google map or other projection and put the west as north and vice versa.

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2016, 01:59:12 AM »
With the "shadow object" so small, it is quite impossible for the it to cast any significant shadow on the moon. Almost all of the sunlight will shine around it.

Please explain how and why sunlight would "shine around it" in space.
Do I really have to draw a picture? Your sun and moon are each some 32 miles in diameter and the "Shadow Object is around five to ten miles in diameter".

Please explain how a 10 mile diameter object can block all the light from a 32 mile diameter sun from a 32 mile diameter moon.

It does no matter where the shadow object is located, it cannot block much light.

I don't know if Tom Bishop is coming back, but here is your answer:

Touche! We were mistaken. Since we can't see this shadow object it's hard to determine it's size. Our revised theory is that the shadow object is actually larger. We now estimate that it is similar in size to the sun.
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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2016, 01:59:26 AM »
I tried explain a lot of things yet I am sure that the lunar eclipse is caused the globe shadow.

Then you believe that the earth is a globe and a lunar eclipse is not caused by some "shadow object" ?
I do believe lunar eclipse caused by the shadow from Globe earth, by I do believe the earth to be very vivid and change phases from Concavity to flat(very short time of the year) to sphere. The best map I know today is to take google map or other projection and put the west as north and vice versa.
I do believe that we have infinite options of traveling in our planet the gateway is the poles, they have strange mechanism how they work and in short time of the year the "Phantom" islands of the north pole could be really true continents.

That's my belief you don't have to take it so seriously, but some of it can explain a lot of phenomena

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2016, 05:00:30 AM »
With the "shadow object" so small, it is quite impossible for the it to cast any significant shadow on the moon. Almost all of the sunlight will shine around it.

Please explain how and why sunlight would "shine around it" in space.
Do I really have to draw a picture? Your sun and moon are each some 32 miles in diameter and the "Shadow Object is around five to ten miles in diameter".

Please explain how a 10 mile diameter object can block all the light from a 32 mile diameter sun from a 32 mile diameter moon.

It does no matter where the shadow object is located, it cannot block much light.

It's possible for a 10 mile diameter body to block out a 32 mile diameter body in the same way that it is possible for your hands to project a shadow puppet show on a wall, those shadowed hands being several times the size of your own hands.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2016, 05:04:21 AM »
With the "shadow object" so small, it is quite impossible for the it to cast any significant shadow on the moon. Almost all of the sunlight will shine around it.

Please explain how and why sunlight would "shine around it" in space.

Here is an experiment you can observe. Get a spotlight with a 3" face. Draw a 3" circle on the wall. Position the light so it is fully illuminating the circle on the wall. Try to block all the light from reaching the circle with a quarter. Or your thumb. You can block some of the light but certainly not all of it. If the center of your beam is aimed directly at the circle you can hardly even notice the effect of the quarter or thumb no matter where you place it.

If you had a spotlight and a quarter you could position the quarter to where it is making a shadow with a much larger diameter than the quarter.

In space there is no atmosphere to reflect or diffuse light, and so blur would not occur.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: The Shadow Object Explanation of a Lunar Eclipse is Impossible!
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2016, 05:20:51 AM »
With the "shadow object" so small, it is quite impossible for the it to cast any significant shadow on the moon. Almost all of the sunlight will shine around it.

Please explain how and why sunlight would "shine around it" in space.

Here is an experiment you can observe. Get a spotlight with a 3" face. Draw a 3" circle on the wall. Position the light so it is fully illuminating the circle on the wall. Try to block all the light from reaching the circle with a quarter. Or your thumb. You can block some of the light but certainly not all of it. If the center of your beam is aimed directly at the circle you can hardly even notice the effect of the quarter or thumb no matter where you place it.

If you had a spotlight and a quarter you could position the quarter to where it is making a shadow with a much larger diameter than the quarter.

In space there is no atmosphere to reflect or diffuse light, and so blur would not occur.

No, think again.

That could not happen if the light source (the 32 mile Sun ) were much larger than the shading object (the 10 mile Shadow Object). There is no need for any blurring.