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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2016, 08:27:57 AM »
Whether or not the foetus/ zygote/ egg/ sperm wants life is irrelevant. The question is whether one has bodily autonomy, that is, do you have the right to decide what happens in your own body?

Even if a foetus was 100% cognisant and able to debate the finer details of Aristotelian philosophy I would still argue that the right to abortion  be defended. Nobody has the right to force themselves upon your body without your consent, even if withdrawing that access results in their death.

That is a reprehensible argument. You are basically arguing that a woman has the right to kill a baby one day before birth.

The baby inside her is a living being as well. There are two people here, not just one. You are arguing that the termination of a baby, which wants to live, it perfectly fine, because it might temporarily inconvenience the mother. That is terrible. How could you favor termination of life over temporary inconvenience?

The intention of abortion isn't to kill the foetus, but to remove it from the woman. At the point at which birth might be viable every effort should be taken to ensure the survival of both patients. However, this is largely an irrelevant argument, the number of tate-term abortions is vanishingly small and are usually carried out to preserve the life of the mother where complications have arisen. Sad, but necessary.

I'll leave others to make the case that a foetus isn't a 'person' in any meaningful sense because it doesn't form part of my argument.

Yes, I'd argue that if someone requires the use of your body to live, then you have the right to accept or deny that use. If I found myself in hospital hooked up to someone on dialysis connected to my liver, then I would object to being told I couldn't end the session, even if I fully intended to see it through to the end.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2016, 04:45:03 PM »
The intention of abortion isn't to kill the foetus, but to remove it from the woman. At the point at which birth might be viable every effort should be taken to ensure the survival of both patients. However, this is largely an irrelevant argument, the number of tate-term abortions is vanishingly small and are usually carried out to preserve the life of the mother where complications have arisen. Sad, but necessary.

I'll leave others to make the case that a foetus isn't a 'person' in any meaningful sense because it doesn't form part of my argument.

Yes, I'd argue that if someone requires the use of your body to live, then you have the right to accept or deny that use. If I found myself in hospital hooked up to someone on dialysis connected to my liver, then I would object to being told I couldn't end the session, even if I fully intended to see it through to the end.

If you woke up and found yourself in a hospital hooked up to someone on dialysis connected to your liver, it is your moral and ethical responsibility not to pull the plug and wait it out for the process to complete. Why would you kill another person to relieve some temporary discomfort? It is your obligation to try and preserve life, not be selfish and end it. If you straight up killed that man, I would have no problem with you going to jail. You don't get to decide who lives and dies.

A baby which is aborted is innocent. They didn't ask to be put into the situation they are in. We owe it as a society to do anything we can for that innocent life. The moral obligation is quite clear. The innocent baby wants to be born and live and their selfish parents want to destroy it. How can you justify those terrible actions?
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2016, 04:47:37 PM »
If you woke up and found yourself in a hospital hooked up to someone on dialysis connected to your liver, it is your moral and ethical responsibility not to pull the plug and wait it out for the process to complete. Why would you kill another person to relieve some temporary discomfort? It is your obligation to try and preserve life, not be selfish and end it.

So then you think it is one's ethical and moral responsibility to donate one of their kidneys?  Or a lobe of lung?

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A baby which is aborted is innocent. They didn't ask to be put into the situation they are in. We owe it as a society to do anything we can for that innocent life.

Why do we owe it as a society to do anything we can for innocent life?  You need to justify this.

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The moral obligation is quite clear. The innocent baby wants to be born and live and their selfish parents want to destroy it.

You still have not shown that a baby "wants to be born".  I do not accept this premise yet.

Just as a sidebar, how would you justify the following scenario:

A single woman, who has no intention of ever bearing children is raped by a gang of men, impregnated and left unable to work.  She will not be in any position to provide for the child.  Is it your position that this woman should be made to carry the child to term, give birth, and then give up the child for abortion?  Who should bear the cost of this?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2016, 05:06:29 PM »
So then you think it is one's ethical and moral responsibility to donate one of their kidneys?  Or a lobe of lung?

Not donating your kidney is not the same as deliberately ending a life. Maybe if you were somehow the only match and there were no other options and you flatly refused, you would be culpable.

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Why do we owe it as a society to do anything we can for innocent life?  You need to justify this.

As a society we value innocence and honesty and look down on selfishness and evil.

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You still have not shown that a baby "wants to be born".  I do not accept this premise yet.

Of course the baby wants to live. If the baby didn't want to be born it would abort itself.

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Just as a sidebar, how would you justify the following scenario:

A single woman, who has no intention of ever bearing children is raped by a gang of men, impregnated and left unable to work.  She will not be in any position to provide for the child.  Is it your position that this woman should be made to carry the child to term, give birth, and then give up the child for abortion?  Who should bear the cost of this?

Yes. Those men should certainly be found and punished, but the baby is innocent. Why punish the baby? What did it do?

The woman should be made to complete the pregnancy and allow the baby to live. The adoptive parents typically pays for the maintenance of the woman while she is pregnant if she is unable to do so. If no adoptive parents can be found, the state should step in. This is not some terrible injustice to the woman. The baby is not some dangerous intruder being forced upon her. The baby is HER CHILD, and the state is simply protecting her child from her selfishness.

What those men did is not a nice thing, but she could have easily been murdered or received life long injuries. The temporary inconvenience she must go through to preserve the innocent life of her own child, her own flesh and blood, is the right thing to do, and pales in comparison to what could have happened.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 05:23:59 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2016, 08:26:32 AM »
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If you woke up and found yourself in a hospital hooked up to someone on dialysis connected to your liver, it is your moral and ethical responsibility not to pull the plug and wait it out for the process to complete. Why would you kill another person to relieve some temporary discomfort? It is your obligation to try and preserve life, not be selfish and end it. If you straight up killed that man, I would have no problem with you going to jail. You don't get to decide who lives and dies.

Any treatment carries an inherent risk, and some treatments riskier than others - would you still object to the donor kidney pulling the plug if there was a very good chance that by continuing either the donor or the patient or both could die?

it is up to us whether we accept the risks a medical procedure such as donating the use of an organ or bringing a baby to term, not the hospital, not the state, and not Tom Bishop: Emperor of the Internet.

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A baby which is aborted is innocent.

Irrelevant.

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They didn't ask to be put into the situation they are in. We owe it as a society to do anything we can for that innocent life. The moral obligation is quite clear. The innocent baby wants to be born and live and their selfish parents want to destroy it. How can you justify those terrible actions?

They don't (generally) want to destroy the foetus, but to stop the procedure of bringing it to term. If there was a safe and effective means to remove a foetus  and transfer it to an artificial womb, I'd support every effort being made to ensure that was the legal abortion option.

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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2016, 09:02:19 AM »
It is your obligation to try and preserve life

I have already addressed this (and numerous other points which you have summarily ignored, but let's take this one step at a time):

This is a common line of reasoning among anti-abortionists, who try to boil down the issue to being about the preservation of life. It is not about life unless you are also campaigning against the harvesting of crops. It is about a sapient human being, and the question you should ask is at what point sapience begins, not what point life begins.

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A baby which is aborted is innocent.

Irrelevant.

Actually, it's not, but that doesn't imply that abortion is always wrong. It's extreme stances like this, refusing to even acknowledge that some consideration to the baby's right to live is warranted, which makes the conventional pro-choice stance so easy to dismiss to pro-lifers.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2016, 10:52:22 PM »
It is your obligation to try and preserve life

I have already addressed this (and numerous other points which you have summarily ignored, but let's take this one step at a time):

This is a common line of reasoning among anti-abortionists, who try to boil down the issue to being about the preservation of life. It is not about life unless you are also campaigning against the harvesting of crops. It is about a sapient human being, and the question you should ask is at what point sapience begins, not what point life begins.

What does the ability to think and reason have to do with it? That is ridiculous. A newborn baby can't think or reason at any high level, but killing a newborn baby is wrong and illegal. Are you saying that it's okay to kill newborns because they can't reason with you?
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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2016, 11:46:22 PM »
What does the ability to think and reason have to do with it? That is ridiculous.

Then why do anti-abortionists never protest yards being weeded?

A newborn baby can't think or reason at any high level, but killing a newborn baby is wrong and illegal. Are you saying that it's okay to kill newborns because they can't reason with you?

I'm not saying anything about what I believe. It is simple observation that the issue has nothing to do with life when routine, everyday destruction of life is so abundant and never protested.
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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2016, 12:07:51 AM »
What does the ability to think and reason have to do with it? That is ridiculous.

Then why do anti-abortionists never protest yards being weeded?

A newborn baby can't think or reason at any high level, but killing a newborn baby is wrong and illegal. Are you saying that it's okay to kill newborns because they can't reason with you?

I'm not saying anything about what I believe. It is simple observation that the issue has nothing to do with life when routine, everyday destruction of life is so abundant and never protested.

Most pro-lifers are against the taking of innocent, defenseless, human life. Weeds and weasels are not considered to be in the same category by any pro-lifer that I know - or anyone that I know regardless of their stance on abortion, for that matter.
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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2016, 12:54:57 AM »
Most pro-lifers are against the taking of innocent, defenseless, human life. Weeds and weasels are not considered to be in the same category by any pro-lifer that I know - or anyone that I know regardless of their stance on abortion, for that matter.

That's exactly my point. It's not about life if not just any form of life qualifies.
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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2016, 01:28:21 AM »
Most pro-lifers are against the taking of innocent, defenseless, human life. Weeds and weasels are not considered to be in the same category by any pro-lifer that I know - or anyone that I know regardless of their stance on abortion, for that matter.

That's exactly my point. It's not about life if not just any form of life qualifies.

Pro-choice is referring to a woman's right to choose to have an abortion, not all other types of choices in the universe. Pro-life is referring to human life - specifically the lives of unborn babies, not all other types of life in the universe. Are you arguing semantics or am I completely missing your point?

Pro-lifers are against the taking of human life regardless of said human's ability to think and reason.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 01:33:38 AM by Boots »
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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2016, 01:40:26 AM »
Pro-choice is referring to a woman's right to choose to have an abortion, not all other types of choices in the universe. Pro-life is referring to human life - specifically the lives of unborn babies, not all other types of life in the universe. Are you arguing semantics or am I completely missing your point?

Pro-lifers are against the taking of human life regardless of said human's ability to think and reason.

I'm not talking about the term "pro-life". I don't care what pro-lifers call themselves. I'm talking about arguments based on claims such as:

It is your obligation to try and preserve life

"Life" is not the foundation of their argument, and by pretending it is, they make it impossible to respond to what they actually mean. I can't criticise a viewpoint based upon values which have not been communicated.
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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2016, 02:01:41 AM »
OK. Tom can speak for himself but in general, would it be fair to say  that "human life" is the foundation of their argument? And if it was, what would your response be to that?
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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2016, 02:04:17 AM »
OK. Tom can speak for himself but in general, would it be fair to say  that "human life" is the foundation of their argument? And if it was, what would your response be to that?

I don't know if it's fair to say that because I don't know what most of them base their beliefs on, but it sounds plausible.

I would want to know what precisely is meant by "human life". At what point on the evolutionary spectrum between Australopithecus and Homo sapiens do embryos stop qualifying for abortion, and more importantly, why?

That is, what about human life makes it more precious than other life?
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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2016, 02:19:41 AM »
OK. Tom can speak for himself but in general, would it be fair to say  that "human life" is the foundation of their argument? And if it was, what would your response be to that?

I don't know if it's fair to say that because I don't know what most of them base their beliefs on, but it sounds plausible.

I would want to know what precisely is meant by "human life". At what point on the evolutionary spectrum between Australopithecus and Homo sapiens do embryos stop qualifying for abortion, and more importantly, why?

That is, what about human life makes it more precious than other life?

Before I attempt an answer I would like to ask you a question. Assuming that it wasn't illegal and that there was no chance of retribution, would you kill a man you didn't like (Thork?) as casually as you would pull a weed from your yard that you didn't like? Why or why not?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 02:39:06 AM by Boots »
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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2016, 03:28:47 PM »
Very simple and repeated tasks with generalizations that "this does that". It's no more astute than claiming you understand the human genome by pointing out errors in it.

indeed, meticulously altering the parameters of a system and carefully observing the resulting changes is in fact an excellent way to learn how things work.  this is just as true of the genome as it is of the brain.  tracking "errors" in heredity is actually exactly how we came to understand the genome. 

if the only means of affecting cognition is to affect the brain, then it's a pretty decent bet that the brain has something to do with cognition.  if structural damage to one specific part of the brain always causes a specific and repeatable change in cognition, and if no other damage to any other part of the body causes those same changes, then it seems highly likely that the two are related.

In what way, though? If I wanted to build a conscious brain, how would I go about doing so? Which wires go where, so to speak?

one of the neat things about brains is that the build themselves.  that said, we understand how brains build themselves quite well. 

nevertheless, the capacity to understand a thing and the capacity to build a thing are different matters.  no one can build a yeast cell, but it would be asinine to assert that this implies that yeast has nothing to do with leavening.  or that we don't understand yeast cells very thoroughly.

you claim that "The brain is simply one part of our spiritual machinery. The heart and stomach are just as important."  in what way, though?  if i wanted to build a conscious spiritual machine, how would i go about doing so?  which wires go where, so to speak?

This is false, the heart is even more important to cognition than even the brain. You can still live without half a brain, but living with half a heart will give you quite some trouble.

you apparently didn't read the link i provided about the human who lived for more than a year without a heart.  he had zero hearts in his body, yet his cognition was unaffected.

please tell me more about the folks who continue to live without half of a brain.  i'm specifically interested in their cognitive abilities before and after losing half of their brains.

and again, no one disagrees that death affects cognition.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2016, 07:19:40 PM »
indeed, meticulously altering the parameters of a system and carefully observing the resulting changes is in fact an excellent way to learn how things work.  this is just as true of the genome as it is of the brain.  tracking "errors" in heredity is actually exactly how we came to understand the genome. 

if the only means of affecting cognition is to affect the brain, then it's a pretty decent bet that the brain has something to do with cognition.  if structural damage to one specific part of the brain always causes a specific and repeatable change in cognition, and if no other damage to any other part of the body causes those same changes, then it seems highly likely that the two are related.

Yet the brain isn't the only way to affect cognition. In fact, the neurons in the brain play very little in the ways of our cognitive abilities, and instead most of our desires are controlled by other body parts. For example, the stomach determines when you're hungry or not, not your brain.

one of the neat things about brains is that the build themselves.  that said, we understand how brains build themselves quite well. 

nevertheless, the capacity to understand a thing and the capacity to build a thing are different matters.  no one can build a yeast cell, but it would be asinine to assert that this implies that yeast has nothing to do with leavening.  or that we don't understand yeast cells very thoroughly.

you claim that "The brain is simply one part of our spiritual machinery. The heart and stomach are just as important."  in what way, though?  if i wanted to build a conscious spiritual machine, how would i go about doing so?  which wires go where, so to speak?

Ah, so seeing as how you understand how brains work, you can build one, right? If you understood precisely how it works, then you could easily build a logic system replicating a brain out of anything. I'm sure experts in AI are eagerly awaiting your groundbreaking discoveries.

[...] human who lived for more than a year without a heart.

Incorrect.

please tell me more about the folks who continue to live without half of a brain.  i'm specifically interested in their cognitive abilities before and after losing half of their brains.

and again, no one disagrees that death affects cognition.

I never claimed one could live normally with half a brain. One cannot live with half a brain, half a heart, half a stomach.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2016, 03:30:11 PM »
Quote
Actually, it's not, but that doesn't imply that abortion is always wrong. It's extreme stances like this, refusing to even acknowledge that some consideration to the baby's right to live is warranted, which makes the conventional pro-choice stance so easy to dismiss to pro-lifers.

Everyone else has the argument about when a foetus should be considered a 'baby' fairly well wrapped up; in the full debate it's one facet to consider, but it is irrelevant the argument from a woman's autonomy, which is the argument that I am making.

Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2016, 07:38:17 PM »
Yet the brain isn't the only way to affect cognition. In fact, the neurons in the brain play very little in the ways of our cognitive abilities, and instead most of our desires are controlled by other body parts. For example, the stomach determines when you're hungry or not, not your brain.

this greeting-card view of the origins of our emotions may be well-supported by disney films, but not by any serious investigation of human physiology.  neurons are precisely where our appetites originate: "The brain detects alterations in energy stores and triggers metabolic and behavioral responses designed to maintain energy balance. Energy homeostasis is controlled mainly by neuronal circuits in the hypothalamus and brainstem, whereas reward and motivation aspects of eating behavior are controlled by neurons in limbic regions and cerebral cortex."  emphasis mine.

In what way, though? If I wanted to build a conscious brain, how would I go about doing so? Which wires go where, so to speak?
one of the neat things about brains is that the build themselves.  that said, we understand how brains build themselves quite well. 

nevertheless, the capacity to understand a thing and the capacity to build a thing are different matters.  no one can build a yeast cell, but it would be asinine to assert that this implies that yeast has nothing to do with leavening.  or that we don't understand yeast cells very thoroughly.

you claim that "The brain is simply one part of our spiritual machinery. The heart and stomach are just as important."  in what way, though?  if i wanted to build a conscious spiritual machine, how would i go about doing so?  which wires go where, so to speak?
Ah, so seeing as how you understand how brains work, you can build one, right? If you understood precisely how it works, then you could easily build a logic system replicating a brain out of anything. I'm sure experts in AI are eagerly awaiting your groundbreaking discoveries.
   
one of the neat things about brains is that the build themselves.  that said, we understand how brains build themselves quite well. 

nevertheless, the capacity to understand a thing and the capacity to build a thing are different matters.  no one can build a yeast cell, but it would be asinine to assert that this implies that yeast has nothing to do with leavening.  or that we don't understand yeast cells very thoroughly.

you claim that "The brain is simply one part of our spiritual machinery. The heart and stomach are just as important."  in what way, though?  if i wanted to build a conscious spiritual machine, how would i go about doing so?  which wires go where, so to speak?  seeing as how you understand how spiritual machinery works, you can build it, right?

[...] human who lived for more than a year without a heart.

Incorrect.

you appear to be replying to my posts without actually reading what i've written.  here's the link again: Man lives 555 days without a heart.

I never claimed one could live normally with half a brain. One cannot live with half a brain, half a heart, half a stomach.

for like the fifth time, i agree that death affects cognition.  your ability to keep living is indeed a function of the integer number of each organ you have.  not in dispute even a little bit.

dead bodies are not ideal candidates for understanding the cause and effect relationship between brains and thoughts.  'cause they're like, you know, dead and shit.

also you absolutely can live with half a brain, half a heart, or half a stomach.  only one of those causes cognitive impairment.  guess which one.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 02:29:23 PM by garygreen »
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Re: Abortion is selfish and should be abolished
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2016, 06:34:08 AM »
The problem today is the lack of information concerning the higher aspects of sexuality.

Men need to learn how to sublimate their erotic energy, to exercise their seminal sphincter, to really understand the link between the generative force and vitality and spirituality. Women need to find out how to transmute the power of their menstrual blood into divinity, and the methods are very easy to learn (one must be very careful though, since most of the information on the subject is transmitted by false teachers).

There is a very simple procedure to be followed if the period is late, so that there will be no pregnancy, and no need to even think about an abortion... so many things which are lacking from a proper education on one of the two most fundamental energies in our bodies (the other being the emotional energy).

A woman needs to learn the deer exercise, the most fundamental practice which links the ovaries with the heart; if the period is late, it is necessary to increase the heat in the lower abdomen...
Everything you said is absolute gibberish.
The only way 'heat' will help is to kill the fertilized egg attached to the uterus wall.  This is called an Abortion.

It's an occult thing, I had no idea Sandokhan. Pretty impressed actually, every time I think I've figured you out...

Also Tom you have every right to state your opinion but IMHO it's the womans body and the womans choice.