Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« on: October 19, 2016, 06:48:03 AM »
The "Bishop Experiment" is listed under the "Experimental Evidence" section of the Wiki. For a very long time, people have complained about the inaccurate distance listed in the experiment (23 miles vs 33 miles). Yet no one has bothered fixing it.

I was recently pointed towards the original post that Tom Bishop described his experiment in. Based on that post, it is quite obvious that he was NOT looking in the direction of "Lighthouse State Beach in Santa Cruz", but rather a beach only about 4 miles away instead. Tom Bishop has since disappeared from the forum, and has not bothered to comment on the accusation, despite his earlier participation in the thread.

I think it is time the "Bishop Experiment" was removed from the wiki, or at least severely edited.

(I wasn't sure whether to put this in S&C or General. Feel free to move it if you think it should be elsewhere.)

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2016, 11:45:19 AM »
For a very long time, people have complained about the inaccurate distance listed in the experiment (23 miles vs 33 miles). Yet no one has bothered fixing it
Yeah, it's an insignificant typo, the numbers still check out after amendments. I'll fix it whenever I have the time, but I make no promises to when that'll be.

I was recently pointed towards the original post that Tom Bishop described his experiment in. Based on that post, it is quite obvious that he was NOT looking in the direction of "Lighthouse State Beach in Santa Cruz", but rather a beach only about 4 miles away instead. Tom Bishop has since disappeared from the forum, and has not bothered to comment on the accusation, despite his earlier participation in the thread.
Right, so you seem to think that a photo he found on the Internet 9 years ago to illustrate his point has been mistakenly misidentified as the beach he was referring to. You also seem to think that that's a serious issue. Could you at least attempt to elaborate why? You'll note that the illustration is not there in the Wiki article, likely since this error has been identified and corrected many years ago.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 11:51:10 AM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2016, 03:58:25 PM »
For a very long time, people have complained about the inaccurate distance listed in the experiment (23 miles vs 33 miles). Yet no one has bothered fixing it
Yeah, it's an insignificant typo, the numbers still check out after amendments. I'll fix it whenever I have the time, but I make no promises to when that'll be.

It certainly isn't a typo, unless you think he made the exact same typo 3 times in the same post. It was probably a mistake, sure. But not a typo. Whatever, this isn't really my point. See below.

Quote
I was recently pointed towards the original post that Tom Bishop described his experiment in. Based on that post, it is quite obvious that he was NOT looking in the direction of "Lighthouse State Beach in Santa Cruz", but rather a beach only about 4 miles away instead. Tom Bishop has since disappeared from the forum, and has not bothered to comment on the accusation, despite his earlier participation in the thread.
Right, so you seem to think that a photo he found on the Internet 9 years ago to illustrate his point has been mistakenly misidentified as the beach he was referring to.

No. He THOUGHT he was looking at a Santa Cruz beach (23 miles away), when in fact he was looking at a beach only about 4 miles away. This becomes fairly obvious when you read his post:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa. With a good telescope, laying down on the stomach at the edge of the shore on the Lovers Point beach 20 inches above the sea level it is possible to see people at the waters edge on the adjacent beach 33 miles away. I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore and teenagers merrily throwing Frisbees to one another. I can see runners jogging along the water's edge with their dogs. From my vantage point the entire beach is visible. Even with the unaided naked eye one can see the beaches along the opposite coast.

The photo he links to to back up his claim is not the Santa Cruz beach. That is a beach that is only about 4 miles away. It is also taken from a vantage point that has no view of the Santa Cruz beach at all. It is clear that he was looking at the wrong beach during his experiment.

Quote
You also seem to think that that's a serious issue. Could you at least attempt to elaborate why?

Um... sure. 4 miles is a much shorter distance than 23 miles or 33 miles. If he was in fact looking at a beach only 4 miles away, the experiment is completely invalid. There is no reason why we shouldn't be able to see a beach 4 miles away if the earth is a globe.

Quote
You'll note that the illustration is not there in the Wiki article, likely since this error has been identified and corrected many years ago.

This is strong evidence that the experiment was done wrong. Removing the evidence doesn't correct the experiment. The experiment was still done wrong, regardless if the evidence was removed.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 04:00:36 PM by TotesNotReptilian »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2016, 12:22:17 PM »
It certainly isn't a typo, unless you think he made the exact same typo 3 times in the same post. It was probably a mistake, sure. But not a typo. Whatever, this isn't really my point. See below.
I recon it was a typo in the original notes-taking process which was then unfortunately replicated. Hardly a big deal anyway, and we seem to agree on that, so let's move on.

No. He THOUGHT he was looking at a Santa Cruz beach (23 miles away), when in fact he was looking at a beach only about 4 miles away. This becomes fairly obvious when you read his post:
I disagree, it doesn't become clear at all.

The photo he links to to back up his claim is not the Santa Cruz beach. That is a beach that is only about 4 miles away.
As I said, he probably looked up an image and made an error. It doesn't reflect particularly well on him, but it doesn't prove anything either.

Um... sure. 4 miles is a much shorter distance than 23 miles or 33 miles
I'm not going to bother to read the rest of this paragraph - you decided to change the meaning of my question, and thus your response is useless.

This is strong evidence that the experiment was done wrong.
You are claiming that. I'm giving you a chance to provide some supporting evidence. So far it's not going particularly well. If you're going to keep waving your hands and shouting "but it's obviously wrong", you're unlikely to convince anyone but those who already agreed with you in the first place.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 12:25:38 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2016, 02:38:25 PM »
I didn't put this in the debate section because I thought it was a fairly cut and dry issue. Fine, I'll explain the evidence as clearly as possible:

The Claim:
He claimed to be able to see Lighthouse State Beach in Santa Cruz from Lovers Point Beach, 33 miles away (23 miles, in actuality).

The Facts:
1. Lovers Point Beach does not have a view of Lighthouse Beach. It is facing the wrong direction. The beach that can be seen across the water from Lover's Point Beach is roughly 4 miles away.
2. To support his claim, he links to a picture he found on the internet. This picture is indeed taken from Lover's Point Beach, and shows the beach that is 4 miles away.

Given these two facts, do you honestly think it is likely he was looking at the correct beach? If he had actually seen the Santa Cruz beach, don't you think he would have noticed that the picture was of the wrong beach? I understand that people make mistakes, but it seems completely unreasonable to think that he would confuse a beach that is only 4 miles away for a beach that he had seen from 23 miles away. That is a huge difference in distance.

Now, combine this with the other issues with the experiment:

1. He provides no pictures (other than the picture of the wrong beach) or witnesses to back up his claim. All we have to go on is his word.
2. He does not say what telescope he uses, despite numerous requests. Several people have called into question whether it is even physically possible to see that much detail through the ground-level atmosphere with any telescope.
3. The "typo".

Now, considering all of the above issues, can you honestly say that this is a reliable experiment?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 02:43:19 PM by TotesNotReptilian »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2016, 04:12:55 PM »
Yes. Similar experiments have been performed and you can perform one of your own, as long as you're willing to travel to a substantial enough body of water.

I can understand why, given your background, you're so willing to jump from pointing out a slightly sloppy write-up to dismissing everything out of hand. Unconscious biases are a bitch. But that's not gonna be enough in this case.

Perhaps part of the problem is that you're flogging a dead horse. We know very well that RE'ers don't like the Bishop Experiment. We also know they don't like the fact that we don't much care about their feelings on the matter. There's really not much left to discuss there.
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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2016, 04:59:27 PM »
(I'm just going to ignore the unnecessary personal attacks)

How on earth do you shrug this off as a "slightly sloppy write-up"? Sloppiness is the least of its problems. Let me re-emphasize the central question that you seemed to have ignored:

The Claim:
He claimed to be able to see Lighthouse State Beach in Santa Cruz from Lovers Point Beach, 33 miles away (23 miles, in actuality).

The Facts:
1. Lovers Point Beach does not have a view of Lighthouse Beach. It is facing the wrong direction. The beach that can be seen across the water from Lover's Point Beach is roughly 4 miles away.
2. To support his claim, he links to a picture he found on the internet. This picture is indeed taken from Lover's Point Beach, and shows the beach that is 4 miles away.

Given these two facts, do you honestly think it is likely he was looking at the correct beach?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 05:02:13 PM by TotesNotReptilian »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2016, 07:21:51 PM »
(I'm just going to ignore the unnecessary personal attacks)
I wouldn't say I issued any personal attacks. Would you clarify?

How on earth do you shrug this off as a "slightly sloppy write-up"? Sloppiness is the least of its problems.
Again, strong words, little back-up.

Let me re-emphasize the central question that you seemed to have ignored:
I haven't ignored it. My previous post begins with the answer - "Yes."
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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2016, 08:05:55 PM »
Are you really just going to say "nuh-uh" without any explanation no matter what I say?
(I'm just going to ignore the unnecessary personal attacks)
I wouldn't say I issued any personal attacks. Would you clarify?

"Willing to jump from pointing out a slightly sloppy write-up to dismissing everything out of hand. Unconscious biases are a bitch"

Quote
How on earth do you shrug this off as a "slightly sloppy write-up"? Sloppiness is the least of its problems.
Again, strong words, little back-up.

If you would bother reading a bit past that, I do back up those words.

Quote
Let me re-emphasize the central question that you seemed to have ignored:
I haven't ignored it. My previous post begins with the answer - "Yes."

Your post began with "Yes. Similar experiments have been performed...", which indicates that you missed my point completely. I am not talking about other experiments. I am talking about Tom Bishop's experiment only.

To be clear, you really see absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that the beach Tom Bishop claimed to do the experiment from does NOT have a view of the beach he claimed to see?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 08:11:03 PM by TotesNotReptilian »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2016, 08:13:35 PM »
"Willing to jump from pointing out a slightly sloppy write-up to dismissing everything out of hand. Unconscious biases are a bitch"
Acknowledging one's unconscious biases and working around them is the bread and butter of the research industry. There is nothing personal about it, unconscious biases just happen to be a bitch.

You're an RE'er. You will, inevitably, be biased towards RE arguments, no matter how hard you try not to. A similar assessment applies to me. Or Thork. Or Blanko. Or rabinoz. It doesn't have anything to do with any single person.

If you would bother reading a bit past that, I do back up those words.
I keep my quotes brief because long quotes make the thread difficult to read. That is not to say I didn't read the rest of your post (I usually signpost that quite well, e.g. I'm not going to bother to read the rest of this paragraph - you decided to change the meaning of my question, and thus your response is useless.). If your argument has now stooped down to the level of "nuh-uh I did prove it!!!", may I suggest that we find a better use for our time?

To be clear, you really see absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that the beach Tom Bishop claimed to do the experiment from does NOT have a view of the beach he claimed to see?
No - and that's not the question you've asked in the first place.

I am completely unconvinced by your baseless assertion that it's a "fact". As such, having considered the issues you've enquired about, I can honestly say that this is a reliable experiment. Not a good one, but reliable nonetheless.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 08:20:30 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2016, 08:35:19 PM »
I am completely unconvinced by your baseless assertion that it's a "fact".

It isn't baseless. It's quite easy to prove. Look at a map of the beaches. Lighthouse State Beach, Santa Cruz, is roughly 15 degrees West of North from Lovers Point Beach. Lovers Point Beach faces East.

Now look at this panoramic picture of Lovers Point Beach. It was taken from on top of the sea wall above the beach. In that picture, can you guess which direction North is? It's towards the wooden bench. Notice the solid wall of rock between the beach and the northerly direction.

How do you suppose Tom Bishop was able to see through that wall of rock?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 08:37:43 PM by TotesNotReptilian »

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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2016, 09:08:15 PM »
Here are the facts regardless of bias. Given the information we have so far, the experiment under discussion is not valid. There may be other similar experiments with results which do support the same conclusion(no curvature). But this one does not.

I believe that there have been such experiments but I am definitely biased toward the idea that these results were due to refraction and not a flat earth. I have noticed that many of these experiments are done close to the water. That, I am beginning to think, is not a good place to do them. I suggest doing them as high off the water as is practical.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 09:15:24 PM by Boots »
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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2016, 09:54:01 PM »
Here are the facts regardless of bias. Given the information we have so far, the experiment under discussion is not valid.
You have presented nothing to suggest that. Sorry. Asserting your convictions over and over won't progress this conversation.
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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2016, 10:26:33 PM »
Here are the facts regardless of bias. Given the information we have so far, the experiment under discussion is not valid.
You have presented nothing to suggest that. Sorry. Asserting your convictions over and over won't progress this conversation.

Either the information given in this thread is incorrect or the experiment under discussion is invalid. It is not logically possible to accept the information as given and accept the experiment under discussion as valid. (IF  "Lovers Point Beach does not have a view of Lighthouse Beach. It is facing the wrong direction." THEN the experiment is not valid.) Perhaps TNR is wrong in his assertion, but so far, no one has challenged that assertion. Thus I am basing my statements on the information given so far.
Where the senses fail us, reason must step in. - Galileo Galilei

Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2016, 11:08:41 PM »
Did you miss my last post SexWarrior?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2016, 10:44:45 AM »
Did you miss my last post SexWarrior?
No, I just assumed you were trolling at this point. But okay.

In that picture, can you guess which direction North is? It's towards the wooden bench
I don't need to guess, because Google Maps kindly provides a compass rose. And no, it's not towards the wooden bench, unless you allow yourself a margin of error of about 50 degrees. North appears to be just about parallel with the wall that you believe to be the source of all problems.

How do you suppose Tom Bishop was able to see through that wall of rock?
I can't speak for Tom, but personally I would walk north-west, onto the rocky part of the beach, perhaps right here, just a quick trip down the stairs from the location you showed us. Or south, away from the wall (probably much more comfy if I'm planning to lay down on my stomach, though it's difficult to ascertain if that would help). Naturally, I wouldn't need to, given that the wall wouldn't get in my way in the first place from most locations on that beach, but hey-ho.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 10:58:14 AM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2016, 08:33:28 PM »
In that picture, can you guess which direction North is? It's towards the wooden bench
I don't need to guess, because Google Maps kindly provides a compass rose. And no, it's not towards the wooden bench, unless you allow yourself a margin of error of about 50 degrees. North appears to be just about parallel with the wall that you believe to be the source of all problems.

No.



Quote
How do you suppose Tom Bishop was able to see through that wall of rock?
I can't speak for Tom, but personally I would walk north-west, onto the rocky part of the beach, perhaps right here, just a quick trip down the stairs from the location you showed us. Or south, away from the wall (probably much more comfy if I'm planning to lay down on my stomach, though it's difficult to ascertain if that would help). Naturally, I wouldn't need to, given that the wall wouldn't get in my way in the first place from most locations on that beach, but hey-ho.

Yes, that is what I would do too. And I am all for giving people the benefit of the doubt. However, he specifically states he was on Lovers Point BEACH. His only corroborating evidence agrees with his statement that he was on Lovers Point BEACH, and shows a picture of beach that is only 4 miles away. It seems a bit overly generous to just assume he did the experiment correctly in spite of his own description that would indicate otherwise.

At this point, I realize you are just determined to blindly support the experiment no matter what, or are just being intentionally thickheaded to troll for whatever reason. Whatever. I've made my point, do with it what you will.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 08:39:40 PM by TotesNotReptilian »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2016, 09:01:16 PM »
No.

How very interesting. It looks like Google can't agree with itself on where north is, exactly. I wonder why that might be ::) But fair enough, perhaps going south wouldn't work then. Let's stick to north-west.

However, he specifically states he was on Lovers Point BEACH.
Which is precisely the sort of inaccuracy that a local (who wouldn't go looking up specific beach names on Google Earth) might commit. A beach in Lovers Point Park is likely going to be referred to as Lovers Point Beach.

At this point, I realize you are just determined to blindly support the experiment no matter what, or are just being intentionally thickheaded to troll for whatever reason.
I might be thick-headed (though I hope I not - that'd make my job hard!), but we seem to at the very least agree on the most likely location from which the experiment was performed. It's a beach (a rocky one, but a beach nonetheless), it's in Lovers Point Park, and it has a clear view of Santa Cruz Beach.

Whatever. I've made my point, do with it what you will.
The body of evidence you've presented doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny. It seems like you just want to see the article deleted because you don't want people to see it - and I hope you understand that I have to be very careful with articles that RE'ers don't want people to see. It's almost the best sort of endorsement. As the person closest to something that might be described as "in charge" of the Wiki, I simply do not see a legitimate reason to delete the article. Yes, it needs amendments (mostly repercussions of the incorrect distance between the two locations), but deletion would be pushing it way too far.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 09:06:18 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2016, 12:30:13 AM »
Thank you for your careful and unbiased consideration of my concern.

Re: Bishop Experiment in the Wiki
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2016, 06:32:48 AM »
Defeater of Sandokhan and Tom Bishop it seems, slow down Totes xD.