Mock

• 43
Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« on: June 17, 2016, 06:38:27 PM »
Riddle me this:
How does a Full Moon appear full for everyone?

Imo, this is a really good question, regardless of the correctness of the OP's diagrams or anything else he has said. I have read countless of FE-believers' posts about how what rabinoz, totesnotreptilian and everyone else say in that thread is wrong, inaccurate and whatnot, but you FE-ers haven't come up with a valid explanation, either.

So if it's not because we live on a spherical earth with the moon rotating around it, how can the full moon appear full for anyone?
Thanks!

rabinoz

• 1436
• Just look South at the Stars
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2016, 01:40:11 AM »
Riddle me this:
How does a Full Moon appear full for everyone?

Imo, this is a really good question, regardless of the correctness of the OP's diagrams or anything else he has said. I have read countless of FE-believers' posts about how what rabinoz, totesnotreptilian and everyone else say in that thread is wrong, inaccurate and whatnot, but you FE-ers haven't come up with a valid explanation, either.

So if it's not because we live on a spherical earth with the moon rotating around it, how can the full moon appear full for anyone?
Thanks!
"How can the full moon appear full for anyone?" - It does look as though no-one knows!

Why pick a hypothesis that cannot explain the observations without the most horrendous guesses and assumptions?

Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6721
• Flat Earth Believer
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2016, 01:38:33 PM »
The idea that everyone sees the same phase or face is a myth. It actually changes slightly.

Under FET the moon is 3000 miles in altitude and disappears when it is 6000 miles away (2x its height), which means its not going to turn much.

Furthermore, it is unknown how perspective works on large scales.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 01:54:45 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Woody

• 241
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2016, 01:53:09 PM »
The idea that everyone sees the same phase or face is a myth. It actually changes slightly.

Under FET the moon is 3000 miles in altitude and disappears when it is 6000 miles away (2x its height), which means its not going to turn much.

Furthermore, it is unknown how perspective works on large scales.

Tom what do you think changes with distance?

At what distance do you think how perspective work changes?

What could cause these changes?

What observations have you made, beyond stuff must be different or the FE model does not work?

Seems the same thing is true about math.  Only works unless the results do not match what you want to believe.

Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6721
• Flat Earth Believer
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2016, 02:06:42 PM »
It would take significantly longer for a giant floating rubix cube receding into the distance to perceptually turn to its side at an altitude of 10,000 feet vs an altitude of 10 feet. This can be demonstrated with real world experiences.

No one knows how it may behave at an altitude of thousands of miles, however, as there is no easy real world test for such scales. Our only human experience of very large non-testable  scales is that things dont change much.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6721
• Flat Earth Believer
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2016, 02:11:10 PM »
The idea that everyone sees the same phase
Seems the same thing is true about math.  Only works unless the results do not match what you want to believe.

Actually, scientists have different math for physical reality at different scales.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

geckothegeek

Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2016, 03:48:08 PM »
Riddle me this:
How does a Full Moon appear full for everyone?

Imo, this is a really good question, regardless of the correctness of the OP's diagrams or anything else he has said. I have read countless of FE-believers' posts about how what rabinoz, totesnotreptilian and everyone else say in that thread is wrong, inaccurate and whatnot, but you FE-ers haven't come up with a valid explanation, either.

So if it's not because we live on a spherical earth with the moon rotating around it, how can the full moon appear full for anyone?
Thanks!

Moonshrimp, moonshrimp, moonshrimp !!!!!!!!

Charming Anarchist

• 159
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2016, 04:39:37 PM »
So if it's not because we live on a spherical earth with the moon rotating around it, how can the full moon appear full for anyone?
Thanks!
The moon can not appear full for anybody standing on a giant 3-dimensional merry-go-round either.
You are welcome!
watch?v=xhcVJcINzn8

Mock

• 43
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2016, 05:05:51 PM »
Still no explanations - at least none that make sense and accurately describe the process.
So if it's not because we live on a spherical earth with the moon rotating around it, how can the full moon appear full for anyone?
Thanks!
The moon can not appear full for anybody standing on a giant 3-dimensional merry-go-round either.
You are welcome!
It mostly does though?

Charming Anarchist

• 159
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2016, 07:59:38 PM »
It mostly does though?
Only on television.
Not in real life.
watch?v=xhcVJcINzn8

rabinoz

• 1436
• Just look South at the Stars
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2016, 12:25:13 AM »
So if it's not because we live on a spherical earth with the moon rotating around it, how can the full moon appear full for anyone?
Thanks!
The moon can not appear full for anybody standing on a giant 3-dimensional merry-go-round either.
You are welcome!
True, the moon never appears perfectly full, because in the only position where it can be the fully lit side can precisely face us is right where we would get a total lunar eclipse. The nearest we get to a perfectly full moon is immediately before the lunar eclipse. That's just the way it is.
But the "full moons" we do see are very close simply because the moon is so far away. Here is a scale drawing of the geometry of the sun, earth and moon:

Globe Earth and Moon
The angles are so small that the moon seems almost completely full.
Is this a Full Moon? [1]

Moon on Mar 19, 2016 at 10:08 PM EAST
Here are a couple of Full Moons (not mine this time):

Two things here are worthy of note. First, there is a difference in illumination.
On the left, the east side of the moon is better lit, and on the right, the west.

More importantly, these pictures do not show the same stretch of moon!

From: Ten Minute Astronomy

So no, we never (unless in space) see a perfect full moon, but what we do see is far closer than would be possible on any flat earth model I have seen!
The geometry given in the Wiki makes it completely impossible for anyone to see anything close full moon at all! I have asked for an explanation numerous times, but it seems to baffle Flat Earthers too!

[1] Well no. It was taken a whole day before the Full Moon.

rabinoz

• 1436
• Just look South at the Stars
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2016, 02:33:26 AM »
The idea that everyone sees the same phase or face is a myth. It actually changes slightly.

Under FET the moon is 3000 miles in altitude and disappears when it is 6000 miles away (2x its height), which means its not going to turn much.

Furthermore, it is unknown how perspective works on large scales.

We know that the moon shows almost exactly the same face to all observers, no matter where the are on earth or the position of the moon in the sky.

"the Wiki" describes the moon as
Quote from: the Wiki
Moon
The moon is a rotating sphere. It has a diameter of 32 miles and is located approximately 3000 miles above the surface of the earth.

Some viewers see the moon directly overhead, others see it on the horizon.
These viewers would seem to be viewing completely different faces, yet we know that everyone sees the SAME face.

You claim that "under FET the moon is 3000 miles in altitude and disappears when it is 6000 miles away (2x its height), which means its not going to turn much."
I completely disagree with that on two issues.
• Even if it disappeared when only 6,000 miles away that is an angle of about 60° to the vertical. There is simply NO way you could call that "not going to turn much"
• But we know that the moon sets right at the horizon! That is 90° from the vertical and the distance would be around 8,000 miles away - depending on where the observer was.

Then you claim that "Furthermore, it is unknown how perspective works on large scales."

Now, perspective is no more than how the scene appears to us when light travels in straight lines from the object(s) to our eyes.

No-one doubts that apart from comparatively small refraction (not more than ±2°[1] in the most extreme cases) that photons travel in straight lines in the atmosphere.
You, yourself claimed exactly that in
The simplest explanation is that the photons simply traveled in a straight line. This is a vastly more powerful explanation to the mental gymnastics the Round Earth scientists use to explain why a round earth looks flat.

The following 3 photos were taken recently and show the moon at three quite different altitudes (on different days):
 Date: 22nd May, 2016 Time: 17:42Moon at Alt 2.1°, Azm 107.6° Date: 24th May 2016 Time 19:36Moon at Alt 6.3°, Azm 107.7°, size  0.52° at - 1600mm Date 19th May 2016 Time 22:08Moon at Alt 71.5°, Azm 0.1°,  size  0.52° at - 1600mm
All times are East Australian Standard Time. At altitudes varying from 2.1° (at Azimuth 107.6° - 17.6° S of East) to 71.5° (at Azimuth 0.1° - Due North)

the moon keeps almost the same face (yes it wobbles - nutates - a couple of degrees) to us all the time and does not depend on the time of day of night or on the location in the sky!

 [1] Quote from: Celestial NavigationTutorialRefractionThe deflection of light as it enters/passes through the atmosphere is known as Refraction. Refraction is stable and therefore predictable above about 15°, below that one needs to consider the characteristics of the atmospheric layers through which the light passes at that time. (Taking the altitude of bodies at less than 15° is usually avoided for this reason.)For altitudes above 15°, a simplified formula is adequate (± 0’.02), Refraction = 0.96/ Tan (Altitude)Refraction tables make assumptions on the layers for low altitudes and should be treated with caution. ±2° is not uncommon at an altitude of 2°.Refraction is subtracted from the Apparent Altitude to obtain the True Altitude. from: Celestial Navigation Tutorial - NavSoft

TotesNotReptilian

• 802
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2016, 10:31:50 AM »
Just to reiterate what has been said by others on this thread, and in other threads:

The idea that everyone sees the same phase or face is a myth. It actually changes slightly.

Lunar libration causes it to rotate about 2 degrees over the course of a single night.

Quote
Under FET the moon is 3000 miles in altitude and disappears when it is 6000 miles away (2x its height), which means its not going to turn much.

Let's do the math, shall we?

tan-1(6000/3000) = 63.4 degrees

63.4 degrees (flat earth prediction)
2 degrees (observed)

Do you really not see the contradiction here?

Quote
Furthermore, it is unknown how perspective works on large scales.

No, you just want to pretend we don't know how it works, because if we DO know how it works, everything we observe about the sun and moon doesn't agree with the flat earth model. We have absolutely no reason to think perspective magically stops working at 3000 miles. In the numerous other threads about this topic, you have failed to provide a single shred of evidence that perspective suddenly stops working. You should really stop making these claims when you have no evidence to back them up.

rabinoz

• 1436
• Just look South at the Stars
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2016, 12:37:09 PM »
The idea that everyone sees the same phase
Seems the same thing is true about math.  Only works unless the results do not match what you want to believe.

Actually, scientists have different math for physical reality at different scales.
I only just saw this bit.
Please explain just what you mean by "scientists have different math for physical reality at different scales".

Just what do you mean by "different math for physical reality"? You simply state it, but for a statement like that you really need some justification and references.

Unsure101

• 142
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2016, 12:45:05 PM »
The idea that everyone sees the same phase
Seems the same thing is true about math.  Only works unless the results do not match what you want to believe.

Actually, scientists have different math for physical reality at different scales.
I only just saw this bit.
Please explain just what you mean by "scientists have different math for physical reality at different scales".

Just what do you mean by "different math for physical reality"? You simply state it, but for a statement like that you really need some justification and references.
Tom is (kind of) correct, quantum mechanics has not yet been unified with the more classical physics such as gravitation and electromagnetism used in astronomy.

geckothegeek

Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2016, 04:54:00 PM »
Re: The moon, its phases, etc.

A visit to a local astronomical observatory would be interesting, educational and informative.Especially if they have a "Star Party" after dark such as at the Mc Donald Observatory.

But that would be a "No-No !" for flat earthers. Think of all those, mad , lying, satanic, indoctrinated scientists, engineers and astronomers at all those fake astronomical observatories !

How many Flat Earth Astronomical Observatories are there ?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 05:01:08 PM by geckothegeek »

rabinoz

• 1436
• Just look South at the Stars
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2016, 11:10:22 PM »
It would take significantly longer for a giant floating rubix cube receding into the distance to perceptually turn to its side at an altitude of 10,000 feet vs an altitude of 10 feet. This can be demonstrated with real world experiences.

No one knows how it may behave at an altitude of thousands of miles, however, as there is no easy real world test for such scales. Our only human experience of very large non-testable  scales is that things dont change much.

You claim that "No one knows how it may behave at an altitude of thousands of miles", but we really do,
but the "Flat Earth Movement" conveniently claims that everything that disproves their theory is faked!

Tom, I was around when Sputnik I was launched (in 1957 on my birthday!).
No-one is ever going to convince me that those dastardly Russians during the cold war, somehow miraculously had generators of modulated 20.007 MHz signals travelling around the earth to match the claimed movement of that satellite!

And as you undoubtedly 20.007 MHz does not propagate reliably over long distances anyway, so the source would have had to move at the velocity of that satellite!

We also know that light (you know those photon thingos) travel in straight lines.

Of course you could go with Sandokhan's ideas (watch the walls of text magically appear) and claim that the tremendous density of aether (or ether, or something) slows light down so much that there the sun is really only 12 miles high, etc, etc.

But Tom, you have absolutely no evidence that light at 3,000 miles high behaves any differently that light (of radio waves) near earth (on the flat earth).

Heroeswearnohelmets

• 26
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2016, 10:35:55 AM »

rabinoz

• 1436
• Just look South at the Stars
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2016, 11:53:56 PM »
I'm not going to hunt through your video. Please summarise it and describe in words how we can see the phases of the moon.

In particular, show how everyone on the side of the earth that can see the moon can see if full - or ANYONE for that matter!
You could look in How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone? « on: April 18, 2016, 12:22:27 PM », where I give this diagram of the FE geometry during a full moon:
In this diagram horizontal and vertical distances are to scale, but the object (and people) sizes are exaggerated, or else they would be quite invisible.

You can read the rest for explanation, then see if the FE model makes sense!

Unsure101

• 142
Re: Explain the Moon Phases on a flat Earth to me and I'll consider FE theory
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2016, 02:35:57 AM »

Is that flat earth sitting on the Wheel of Fortune?
I always wondered how the weather was determined!