Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2016, 05:27:58 PM »
Excuse me, but you are the one who said:

Quote
Is that what you're thinking when your loved one is dying, save the group? We're robots? I'm not thinking that at all. I'm seeing my suffering loved one that I can save at the expense of my own existence. There is no group, there's only Sartre's nothingness and I'm painfully aware of it. I'm not overcoming fear doubt or anything else, I'm dead!

I think Robaroni was speaking from the theoretical point of view of an athiest. I'm not 100% positive though. His train of thought is rather hard to follow.

Carry on.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 05:30:08 PM by TotesNotReptilian »

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2016, 05:30:23 PM »
Excuse me, but you are the one who said:

Quote
Is that what you're thinking when your loved one is dying, save the group? We're robots? I'm not thinking that at all. I'm seeing my suffering loved one that I can save at the expense of my own existence. There is no group, there's only Sartre's nothingness and I'm painfully aware of it. I'm not overcoming fear doubt or anything else, I'm dead!

I think Robaroni was speaking from the point of view of a theoretical athiest. I'm not 100% positive though. His train of thought is rather hard to follow.

Carry on.
Oh... Meh...
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2016, 06:08:17 PM »
Excuse me, but you are the one who said:

Quote
Is that what you're thinking when your loved one is dying, save the group? We're robots? I'm not thinking that at all. I'm seeing my suffering loved one that I can save at the expense of my own existence. There is no group, there's only Sartre's nothingness and I'm painfully aware of it. I'm not overcoming fear doubt or anything else, I'm dead!

I think Robaroni was speaking from the theoretical point of view of an athiest. I'm not 100% positive though. His train of thought is rather hard to follow.

Carry on.

Correct!

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2016, 08:46:07 PM »
Whattt??

"Before I attempt this, I need to know, do you have feelings? It's difficult to communicate the concept otherwise."

This is the definition you needed to know if I had feelings to comprehend?? Rubbish!

"Love is an endorphin and oxytocin producing emotion that draws one individual to another and engenders desires to care for, copulate with, initmately engage with, offer protection to, cooperate with, fixate on, etc... the object of their love.  Please note this is  not an exclusive list."

So if we have our pituitary glad removed we no longer have compassion? Our child is dying we will die, endorphins will make us euphoric? Is that what's happening? "Offer protection to"? So explain the process to me. My endorphins and oxycotin make me euphoric and my uterus contracts and that euphoria is so great that I don't care if I'm dead or alive? I stop thinking that I'm going to die saving my child, isn't that instinct when we stop thinking? I think it is.

So while the opposite of compassion - fear and adrenalin are in place to protect us, endorphins and oxycotin are there to what? Kill us?

Do I need compassion to care for someone? What if I'm taking care of an old curmudgeon to get his money when he dies?  Do I need compassion to copulate? Of course not.

R

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2016, 03:58:50 AM »
Whattt??

"Before I attempt this, I need to know, do you have feelings? It's difficult to communicate the concept otherwise."

This is the definition you needed to know if I had feelings to comprehend?? Rubbish!

"Love is an endorphin and oxytocin producing emotion that draws one individual to another and engenders desires to care for, copulate with, initmately engage with, offer protection to, cooperate with, fixate on, etc... the object of their love.  Please note this is  not an exclusive list."

So if we have our pituitary glad removed we no longer have compassion? Our child is dying we will die, endorphins will make us euphoric? Is that what's happening? "Offer protection to"? So explain the process to me. My endorphins and oxycotin make me euphoric and my uterus contracts and that euphoria is so great that I don't care if I'm dead or alive? I stop thinking that I'm going to die saving my child, isn't that instinct when we stop thinking? I think it is.

That was my definition of love, not compassion. Other than that, there are a bunch of straw men in there. For example, you are saying that sacrificing ones life is mutually exclusive with caring whether you live or die. I never said anything to suggest that. You are asserting what goes through someone's mind as they sacrifice their life as well. Sorry, but you have no basis to do so, unless... Do you know what is going through the mind of dead people?

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So while the opposite of compassion - fear and adrenalin are in place to protect us, endorphins and oxycotin are there to what? Kill us?

I don't accept your premise that fear and adrenalin are the opposite of compassion. The opposite of compassion would be apathy; from empathizing with suffering to not. As for the rest, if you want to pretend that endorphins and oxytocin are only valuable in life or death situations, then your credibility will disappear fast.

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Do I need compassion to care for someone?

No.

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What if I'm taking care of an old curmudgeon to get his money when he dies?  Do I need compassion to copulate? Of course not.

Ok... And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

You appear to be trying to back me in to a corner when really I have nothing but fertile grassland behind me.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2016, 11:59:25 AM »


Can we have compassion for our dying child without love? Doesn't that love manifest as compassion, a deep caring? That's what I've been talking about all along and that is the love I asked for your definition of. And what is the opposite of that love? Hate, jealousy,etc.? And what is the root of hate? It's fear and when we fear doesn't our Adrenalin escalate?
Do we give our heart to our neighbor's child? Why not? We don't love our neighbor's child, that's why. It is our love that motivates the action.

So the question is why? Why do we willingly give our life? It's not instinct, we are thinking, contemplating our life, our loved one's life, that we will die. Why do we do it? Why not let the weak die and have more children? Why not self preservation? Where's the science to justify the action?

"Ok... And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

You appear to be trying to back me in to a corner when really I have nothing but fertile grassland behind me."

No, you're switching tracks. Look at your definition of love. Are we talking about copulating? Is that what you're thinking when your loved one is dying?

I'm staying on topic, you gave me this nonsense about my "feelings" which is saying that I have this great depth of feelings and understanding but do you? Because if you don't then my definition will be beyond your ability to comprehend, which is arrogant. Then you gave me an answer that has little if anything to do with "feelings". But we're talking about feelings, about compassion, aren't we but your definition never addressed that, did it?

Answer the question above. Where's the science?
R


Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2016, 12:27:34 PM »
Good start to a conversation, but maybe this should be in Philosophy, Religion & Society?
LOL 







Message to sane/honest/intelligent true-earthers:  Notice how the Opening Poster has not participated AT ALL in this silly discussion. 
watch?v=xhcVJcINzn8

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2016, 01:29:32 PM »


Can we have compassion for our dying child without love?

Absolutely.

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Doesn't that love manifest as compassion, a deep caring?

Of course it can.  This is not an a=b therefore b=a sylogism though.

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That's what I've been talking about all along and that is the love I asked for your definition of. And what is the opposite of that love? Hate, jealousy,etc.? And what is the root of hate? It's fear and when we fear doesn't our Adrenalin escalate?
Do we give our heart to our neighbor's child? Why not? We don't love our neighbor's child, that's why.

Or maybe we have others that we love more.  You are being awfully binary when the situation is much more complex than that.

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It is our love that motivates the action.

Yeah, sometimes, maybe.  I would never claim to know what guides a complete stranger to give their life for another, but in the case of intimates sacrificing for one another, I think it is safe to assume that love is involved.

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So the question is why? Why do we willingly give our life? It's not instinct, we are thinking, contemplating our life, our loved one's life, that we will die. Why do we do it? Why not let the weak die and have more children? Why not self preservation? Where's the science to justify the action?

Mutual altruism is an effective way to promote group well-being.

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"Ok... And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

You appear to be trying to back me in to a corner when really I have nothing but fertile grassland behind me."

No, you're switching tracks. Look at your definition of love. Are we talking about copulating? Is that what you're thinking when your loved one is dying?

Why are you focusing on one part of my definition and excluding others, especially when I said the list is not exclusive?  It was not even the first thing I mentioned. You asked for a definition of love and I gave one that attempted to be somewhat thorough, and a somewhat thorough definition of love should try to include sex because a lot of people in love have sex.

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I'm staying on topic, you gave me this nonsense about my "feelings" which is saying that I have this great depth of feelings and understanding but do you? Because if you don't then my definition will be beyond your ability to comprehend, which is arrogant. Then you gave me an answer that has little if anything to do with "feelings". But we're talking about feelings, about compassion, aren't we but your definition never addressed that, did it?

If you want me to define a feeling for you without appealing to poetry or metaphor, that is to say defining it in a rational, logical way,  it should probably not be either a) referring to other emotions, because it begs the question and/or b) be subjective.

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Answer the question above. Where's the science?
R

http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvard-mahoney-neuroscience-institute/brain-newsletter/and-brain-series/love-and-brain
greatergood.berkeley.edu/images/uploads/Trivers-EvolutionReciprocalAltruism.pdf
weber.ucsd.edu/~jmoore/publications/Recip.html

Are you telling me you have never looked it up?  You should research neuroscience, psychology, evolutionary biology and sociology.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2016, 01:41:23 PM »
Good start to a conversation, but maybe this should be in Philosophy, Religion & Society?
LOL 







Message to sane/honest/intelligent true-earthers:  Notice how the Opening Poster has not participated AT ALL in this silly discussion.

That's rich!

Let's put silliness in perspective. This is a forum where people, in the 21st Century, actually believe the earth is flat and there are people arguing with them about it!!

"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. I'm not sure about the universe!"
Albert Einstein

R

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2016, 01:59:21 PM »
Two things are true: Einstein did not say half the shit people attribute to him and people don't care.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2016, 02:04:12 PM »


"Answer the question above. Where's the science?
R"


http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvard-mahoney-neuroscience-institute/brain-newsletter/and-brain-series/love-and-brain
greatergood.berkeley.edu/images/uploads/Trivers-EvolutionReciprocalAltruism.pdf
weber.ucsd.edu/~jmoore/publications/Recip.html

"Are you telling me you have never looked it up?  You should research neuroscience, psychology, evolutionary biology and sociology."


"Many theories of love, said Schwartz and Olds, propose that there is an inevitable change over time from passionate love to what is typically called compassionate loveā€”love that is deep but not as euphoric as that experienced during the early stages of romance."

Read the wording, what does it say? First, it's a Theory, now look up "P-Hacking". These theories come out on a daily basis mostly in attempts to generate grants, they're not peer reviewed because there's no money in reviewing them. Lots of guesses about what is happening.

Again, you're going off on a tangent!

One more time, you give your life for your loved one, you will be DEAD. Where's the science to support it? Theories about romantic love, is that what you want to give me? Chemicals made me do it? I'm a robot? We're talking about compassion, "compassionate love."

R


 



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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2016, 02:07:02 PM »
The point of me posting 3 links that I dug up in 5 minutes is that you should do your own research instead of demanding it from someone else. What is your goal in all this anyway?
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2016, 02:11:11 PM »
Two things are true: Einstein did not say half the shit people attribute to him and people don't care.

Was this in the half that he said or didn't say? So basically your statement is ambiguous and valueless. "People don't care"?  Which ones? Do you have data to back up your opinions?

I didn't think so.

R

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2016, 02:14:08 PM »
The point of me posting 3 links that I dug up in 5 minutes is that you should do your own research instead of demanding it from someone else. What is your goal in all this anyway?

What makes you think that I didn't do research? You're making assumptions you can't support. Again!

R

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2016, 02:53:02 PM »
The point of me posting 3 links that I dug up in 5 minutes is that you should do your own research instead of demanding it from someone else. What is your goal in all this anyway?

What makes you think that I didn't do research? You're making assumptions you can't support. Again!

R

The assumption I made is that you were conversing in good faith.  I notice you had nothing to say about reciprocal altruism by the way, which again makes me ask, what is your goal in all this?  Are you hoping to get people to admit to a point of view?  What is that point of view? 
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2016, 04:46:32 PM »
The point of me posting 3 links that I dug up in 5 minutes is that you should do your own research instead of demanding it from someone else. What is your goal in all this anyway?

What makes you think that I didn't do research? You're making assumptions you can't support. Again!

R

The assumption I made is that you were conversing in good faith.  I notice you had nothing to say about reciprocal altruism by the way, which again makes me ask, what is your goal in all this?  Are you hoping to get people to admit to a point of view?  What is that point of view?

Reciprocal altruism is a trade with the expectation of future benefit? Is love a trade, I'll love you if you love me? Is love conditional? Not at all.

Why do we need it? Why do you need to be loved? You can function completely without it, eat sleep, procreate, whatever. Give me the science. Give me the science of giving my life for a loved one, no expectations of return, no I'll do this for you and you do this for me. Why does man need to love and be loved? The 'good' of the group? Science can't establish what is 'good'.

R

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2016, 04:56:43 PM »

"what is your goal in all this?"


What's my goal? I made a statement someone disagreed with and it went from there. What's you goal?
R

George

Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2016, 05:23:48 PM »
Look, the Socratic method is all well and good, but you've been asking nonstop questions for the last few pages, and it's going nowhere.  It's not unreasonable at this point to ask that you stop firing off questions and make your case for whatever it is that you have in mind.  Are you saying that feelings of love and compassion aren't tied to brain chemistry, for example?  Or that science is by definition amoral, and not a guide to how anyone should live their lives?

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2016, 06:25:24 PM »

"what is your goal in all this?"


What's my goal? I made a statement someone disagreed with and it went from there.

That's not a goal.

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What's you goal?
R

To discover your goal.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2016, 09:37:13 PM »

"what is your goal in all this?"


What's my goal? I made a statement someone disagreed with and it went from there.

That's not a goal.

Quote
What's you goal?
R



To discover your goal.

I don't have a goal!!

Run out of cut and paste options after reciprocal altruism? Did I answer you the question you posed? Yes, how about answering mine?

R
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 09:41:03 PM by Robaroni »