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Offline BlueMoon

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Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« on: April 04, 2016, 07:35:40 PM »
We know that since the earth is round, tides are caused by the gravity gradients of the moon and sun, resulting in bulges on opposite sides of the earth.  We also know that tidal force is what caused the moon to always face the earth, similarly with many other moons in the solar system.  Furthermore, we know that this same force is responsible for the rings of gas giants, due to those planets' Roche limits where the gravity gradient is too strong and moons would be ripped apart.  So what explanation does FE have for these effects?  Since gravity is so clearly out of the question, I trust FE has a better explanation?
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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2016, 10:39:23 PM »
We know that since the earth is round, tides are caused by the gravity gradients of the moon and sun, resulting in bulges on opposite sides of the earth.  We also know that tidal force is what caused the moon to always face the earth, similarly with many other moons in the solar system.  Furthermore, we know that this same force is responsible for the rings of gas giants, due to those planets' Roche limits where the gravity gradient is too strong and moons would be ripped apart.  So what explanation does FE have for these effects?  Since gravity is so clearly out of the question, I trust FE has a better explanation?
:P ::) ;D No, no, no! You have it all wrong!  ;D ::) :P
We are told to Look up the Wiki - the font of all knowledge! So, I did:
Quote from: the Wiki
Celestial Gravitation
Celestial Gravitation is a part of some Flat Earth models which involve an attraction by all objects of mass on earth to the heavenly bodies. This is not the same as Gravity, since Celestial Gravitation does not imply an attraction between objects of mass on Earth. Celestial Gravitation accounts for tides and other gravimetric anomalies across the Earth's plane.
The seems to be the sole reference to what I would have thought an extremely important topic - surely even Tom Bishop's Monterey Bay has tides!
But there seem to a few problems with this explanation:
  • As you point out, how could this ever account for TWO nearly equal tides per day?
  • We are told that this "Celestial Gravitation" causes an attraction between the tiny "celestial objects"[1] and objects on earth (the oceans). Why then doesn't the earth with a comparatively gigantic mass[2] and being so much closer (literally underfoot) have an attraction between itself an objects on it (US) - that is GRAVITY?
??? And I thought I could be so helpful!  ???

[1] The sun and moon are supposedly onlt about 50 km in diameter and the planets and stars extremely tiny!
[2] John Davis ("Flat Earth Theorist" on the currently "flattened" theflatearthsociety.org site) seems to put the thickness of the flat earth at (from memory) about 6,000 miles.

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Offline Rounder

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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2016, 06:27:15 PM »
No, no, no, that can't be right.  Rowbotham, in his thoughts about tides, decreed that the land floats upon the sea, and the tides are just the land bobbing up and down!  (I wish I were making that up, it's comedy gold!)  Surely, any theories which differ from this must be considered heresy by a true follower of Rowbotham, no?  He arrived at this conclusion on the support of sixteen 'facts', very few of which are actually factual.  The rest are either cherry-picked data and one-off observations, misunderstandings, or outright lies.  And choosing 'only' sixteen facts represents him showing restraint: "Many more facts could be added to the foregoing collection, but already the number is sufficient to enable us to form a definite conclusion as to what is the real cause of the tides."

I'll quote the relevant section:

Quote from: Rowbotham's Earth Not A Globe, Chapter XII
The earth is a vast irregular structure, stretched out upon and standing or floating in the incompressible waters of the "great deep."  Hence, when by the pressure of the atmosphere, the earth is depressed or forced slowly down into the "great deep," the waters immediately close in upon the receding bays and headlands, and produce the flood tide; and when, by reaction, the earth slowly ascends, the waters recede, and the result is the ebb tide.

Something is deep, that's for sure....
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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2016, 06:36:01 PM »
We know that since the earth is round, tides are caused by the gravity gradients of the moon and sun, resulting in bulges on opposite sides of the earth.  We also know that tidal force is what caused the moon to always face the earth, similarly with many other moons in the solar system.  Furthermore, we know that this same force is responsible for the rings of gas giants, due to those planets' Roche limits where the gravity gradient is too strong and moons would be ripped apart.  So what explanation does FE have for these effects?  Since gravity is so clearly out of the question, I trust FE has a better explanation?

Just to be clear, the moon pulling on one side the Ocean, somehow makes the Ocean on the other side of the world rise as well?

An idea I had, that seems plausible on the flat earth, to explain the tides would be the sun moving across the ocean, evaporating large amounts of water. Obviously the other waters would rush in to fill the void created by the evaporation. This could also account for the wind currents, which are the result of the change of air pressure due to the influx of gaseous hydrogen and oxygen.

This is just a thought on how it could work on a flat earth. I'm sure you are anxious to crucify me for having a thought of my own, but just to be clear, I'm not interested in debating the hypothesis.

geckothegeek

Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2016, 07:05:20 PM »
We know that since the earth is round, tides are caused by the gravity gradients of the moon and sun, resulting in bulges on opposite sides of the earth.  We also know that tidal force is what caused the moon to always face the earth, similarly with many other moons in the solar system.  Furthermore, we know that this same force is responsible for the rings of gas giants, due to those planets' Roche limits where the gravity gradient is too strong and moons would be ripped apart.  So what explanation does FE have for these effects?  Since gravity is so clearly out of the question, I trust FE has a better explanation?

Just to be clear, the moon pulling on one side the Ocean, somehow makes the Ocean on the other side of the world rise as well?

An idea I had, that seems plausible on the flat earth, to explain the tides would be the sun moving across the ocean, evaporating large amounts of water. Obviously the other waters would rush in to fill the void created by the evaporation. This could also account for the wind currents, which are the result of the change of air pressure due to the influx of gaseous hydrogen and oxygen.

This is just a thought on how it could work on a flat earth. I'm sure you are anxious to crucify me for having a thought of my own, but just to be clear, I'm not interested in debating the hypothesis.

No ! No ! You are certainly welcome to have whatever thoughts you may have.

But getting back to the OP about the tides. Another flat earth "Theory ?" I have read is that the earth is sort of on a pivot and wobbles  up and down -  sort of like a see-saw - and that causes the oceans to slosh back and forth and that's what causes the tides.
Off-hand this seems logical. Take a large pan of water. Tilt it one way and one  way opposite. Voila ! You've got high tide and low tide !
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 07:17:42 PM by geckothegeek »

geckothegeek

Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2016, 07:22:30 PM »
No, no, no, that can't be right.  Rowbotham, in his thoughts about tides, decreed that the land floats upon the sea, and the tides are just the land bobbing up and down!  (I wish I were making that up, it's comedy gold!)  Surely, any theories which differ from this must be considered heresy by a true follower of Rowbotham, no?  He arrived at this conclusion on the support of sixteen 'facts', very few of which are actually factual.  The rest are either cherry-picked data and one-off observations, misunderstandings, or outright lies.  And choosing 'only' sixteen facts represents him showing restraint: "Many more facts could be added to the foregoing collection, but already the number is sufficient to enable us to form a definite conclusion as to what is the real cause of the tides."

I'll quote the relevant section:

Quote from: Rowbotham's Earth Not A Globe, Chapter XII
The earth is a vast irregular structure, stretched out upon and standing or floating in the incompressible waters of the "great deep."  Hence, when by the pressure of the atmosphere, the earth is depressed or forced slowly down into the "great deep," the waters immediately close in upon the receding bays and headlands, and produce the flood tide; and when, by reaction, the earth slowly ascends, the waters recede, and the result is the ebb tide.

Something is deep, that's for sure....


If you have both a PhD and a MD as Rowbotham had, you must be a deep thinker..........

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Offline Rounder

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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2016, 07:43:58 PM »
Just to be clear, the moon pulling on one side the Ocean, somehow makes the Ocean on the other side of the world rise as well?

I'm usually not in agreement with TheTruthIsOnHere, but I have to acknowledge that high tide on the anti-moon side of the earth is a difficult thing to reconcile with the lunar gravity model.  For what it's worth, the appropriately named moonconnection.com offers offers an explanation: Water on the opposite side of Earth facing away from the Moon also bulges outward (high tide), but for a different and interesting reason: in reality, the Moon and the Earth revolve together around a common gravitational center between them, or center of mass...Because the centrifugal force (on the anti-moon side) is greater than the Moon's gravitational pull, ocean water on the opposite side of the Earth bulges outward.

An idea I had, that seems plausible on the flat earth, to explain the tides would be the sun moving across the ocean, evaporating large amounts of water. Obviously the other waters would rush in to fill the void created by the evaporation. This could also account for the wind currents, which are the result of the change of air pressure due to the influx of gaseous hydrogen and oxygen.

Not bad, and less implausible to me than a lot of things I see here.  I know you said you didn't want to debate it, and that's fine, but you probably know that the rest of us will debate it.  I would like to point out, for example, that the tides are out of sync with the sun's position over the earth while being in sync with the moon's position, and the 'sun evaporation' hypothesis fails to account for that.
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Offline BlueMoon

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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2016, 10:05:42 PM »
Just to be clear, the moon pulling on one side the Ocean, somehow makes the Ocean on the other side of the world rise as well?

I'm usually not in agreement with TheTruthIsOnHere, but I have to acknowledge that high tide on the anti-moon side of the earth is a difficult thing to reconcile with the lunar gravity model.  For what it's worth, the appropriately named moonconnection.com offers offers an explanation: Water on the opposite side of Earth facing away from the Moon also bulges outward (high tide), but for a different and interesting reason: in reality, the Moon and the Earth revolve together around a common gravitational center between them, or center of mass...Because the centrifugal force (on the anti-moon side) is greater than the Moon's gravitational pull, ocean water on the opposite side of the Earth bulges outward.
That explanation for the tides is incorrect.  It's the gravity gradient, not centrifugal force, that causes the antipodal tide.  Gravity is strongest at the near side and weakest at the far side.  But relative to the center of the earth, the resultant force is outward at those points. 

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Offline Rounder

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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2016, 04:51:12 AM »
That explanation for the tides is incorrect.  It's the gravity gradient, not centrifugal force, that causes the antipodal tide.  Gravity is strongest at the near side and weakest at the far side.  But relative to the center of the earth, the resultant force is outward at those points.

Found an interesting website supporting that explanation.  Frankly, it is beyond my level of math education.
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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2016, 08:27:10 AM »
No other FE model can explain the tides.

But I can.

It is the pressure of the ether waves, which causes these tidal effects.

I have already documented the existence of these waves, see the Dayton Miller experiments, and the T. Henry Moray experiments.

Let us remember Dr. Nikola Tesla's words: "Ether will behave as a solid to a liquid, and as a liquid to a solid."

"Over the oceans, the gravitational pull is greater than over the continents, though according to the theory of gravitation the reverse should be true; the hypothesis of isostasy also is unable to explain this phenomenon. The gravitational pull drops at the coast line of the continents. Furthermore, the distribution of gravitation in the sea often has the peculiarity of being stronger where the water is deeper. “In the whole Gulf and Caribbean region the generalization seems to hold that the deeper the water, the more strongly positive the anomalies.”

As far as observations could establish, the sea tides do not influence the plumb line, which is contrary to what is expected. Observations on reservoirs of water, where the mass of water could be increased and decreased, gave none of the results anticipated on the basis of the theory of gravitation."


ATMOSPHERIC TIDE PARADOX

"It has been known now for two and a half centuries, that there are more or less daily variations in the height of the barometer, culminating in two maxima and two minima during the course of 24 hours. The same observation has been made and puzzled over at every station at which pressure records were kept and studied, but without success in finding for it the complete physical explanation."


First, the correct station pressure data as it is measured all around the world.

First reference.

NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DATA:


The most basic change in pressure is the twice daily rise and fall in due to the heating from the sun. Each day, around 4 a.m./p.m. the pressure is at its lowest and near its peak around 10 a.m./p.m. The magnitude of the daily cycle is greatest near the equator decreasing toward the poles.

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/yos/resource/JetStream/atmos/pressure.htm

Each day, around 4 a.m./p.m. the pressure is at its lowest and near its peak around 10 a.m./p.m.


Second reference.

GRAPHS SHOWING THE DAILY SEMIDIURNAL BAROMETRIC PRESSURE CHANGES AT 10:00 AM/10:00 PM (MAXIMUMS) AND 4:00 PM/4:00 AM (MINIMUMS):

http://www.geografia.fflch.usp.br/graduacao/apoio/Apoio/Apoio_Elisa/flg0355/textos/Ahrens_cap9.pdf (PG. 211)


Third reference.

A remarkable characteristic of the semi-diurnal barometric variation is the regularity of the occurrence of the maxima and minima and their uniformity in time of day in all latitudes. While the amplitude of these waves may vary greatly with latitude, with elevation, and with location, whether over the sea or over the land, the local times of maxima and minima are very constant.

http://www.archive.org/stream/bulletinobserv06terruoft/bulletinobserv06terruoft_djvu.txt
(Bulletin of Applied Physical Science)


A remarkable characteristic of the semi-diurnal barometric variation is the regularity of the occurrence of the maxima and minima and their uniformity in time of day in all latitudes.

ALL LATITUDES, no exception recorded.

EVER.


Fourth reference.

It has been known now for two and a half centuries, that there are more or less daily variations in the height of the barometer, culminating in two maxima and two minima during the course of 24 hours. The same observation has been made and puzzled over at every station at which pressure records were kept and studied, but without success in finding for it the complete physical explanation. In speaking of the diurnal and semidiurnal variations of the barometer, Lord Rayleigh says: ‘The relative magnitude of the latter [semidiurnal variations], as observed at most parts of the earth’s surface, is still a mystery, all the attempted explanations being illusory.



Fifth reference.

The atmospheric pressure is greatest at about 10:00 a.m. and 10:00 pm. and least at about 4:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. The variations are primarily the result of the combined effects of the sun's gravitational attraction and solar heating, with solar heating being the major component.

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00001262/00001


THIS REFERENCE EVEN HAS A GRAPH ATTACHED WHICH DOES SHOW THE 10:00 AM AND 10:00 PM MAXIMUMS (PAGE 569).


The best reference from Soil Engineering.

The atmospheric pressure is greatest at about 10:00 a.m. and 10:00 pm. and least at about 4:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m.


Sixth reference.

The barometric pressure curve shows a portion of the normal twice-daily oscillation that occurs due to solar and lunar gravitational forces (atmospheric tides), with high pressures at approximately 10:00 AM and PM, and low pressures at 4:00 AM and PM.

http://info.ngwa.org/gwol/pdf/930158405.PDF


Seventh reference.


http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap01/diurnal.html

Surface pressure measurements in Taiwan (at 25 deg. N) are least around 4am and (especially) 4 pm Local Standard Time, and most around (especially) 10am, and 10pm LST; the amplitude of the semidiurnal cycle is about 1.4 hPa.


Eighth reference.


http://books.google.ro/books?id=vNkZAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA217&lpg=RA1-PA217&dq=barometer+pressure+semidiurnal+change+10+am+4+pm&source=bl&ots=zgQHfJMC_w&sig=NMbmgLuqwPVwEfGVp3WuSu8Mdgg&hl=ro&sa=X&ei=-As4UqWRL4qp4ATI2ICIBA&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=barometer%20pressure%20semidiurnal%20change%2010%20am%204%20pm&f=false

THIS IS REAL SCIENCE: DAILY SEMIDIURNAL CHANGES IN THE BAROMETER PRESSURE READING.

Maximums at 10:00 am and 10:00 pm, and minimums at 4:00 am and 4:00 pm.



Ninth reference.

Humboldt carried a barometer with him on his famous South American journeys of 1799-1804. In his book Cosmos he remarked that the two daily maxima at about 10 a.m. and 10 p.m. were so regular that his barometer could serve somewhat as a clock.

http://www-eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/29_Atmos_Tides.pdf

U.S. Weather Bureau, “Ten-Year Normals of Pressure Tendencies and Hourly Station Pressures for the United States,”
Technical Paper No. 1, Washington, D.C. 1943.

Semidiurnal variations: maximums at 10:00 am/10:00 pm and minimums at 4:00 pm/4:00 am


Surface pressure exhibits a remarkably stable semidiurnal oscillation with maxima at 10 a.m. and 10 p.m. and minima at 4 a.m. and 4 p.m. local time. This semidiurnal oscillation in surface pressure is a universal phenomenon observed worldwide and can be identified even in disturbed weather conditions.

http://amselvam.webs.com/SEN1/bio2met.htm



NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DATA:


The most basic change in pressure is the twice daily rise and fall in due to the heating from the sun. Each day, around 4 a.m./p.m. the pressure is at its lowest and near its peak around 10 a.m./p.m.


A remarkable characteristic of the semi-diurnal barometric variation is the regularity of the occurrence of the maxima and minima and their uniformity in time of day in all latitudes. (Bulletin of Applied Physical Science)


ALL LATITUDES, no exception recorded.

Surface pressure exhibits a remarkably stable semidiurnal oscillation with maxima at 10 a.m. and 10 p.m. and minima at 4 a.m. and 4 p.m. local time. This semidiurnal oscillation in surface pressure is a universal phenomenon observed worldwide and can be identified even in disturbed weather conditions.


BAROMETER PRESSURE PARADOX

One maximum is at 10 a.m., the other at 10 p.m.; the two minima are at 4 a.m. and 4 p.m.

The heating effect of the sun can explain neither the time when the maxima appear nor the time of the minima of these semidiurnal variations.

If the pressure becomes lower without the air becoming lighter through a lateral expansion due to heat, this must mean that the same mass of air gravitates with changing force at different hours.


Lord Rayleigh: ‘The relative magnitude of the latter [semidiurnal variations], as observed at most parts of the earth’s surface, is still a mystery, all the attempted explanations being illusory.’



Currently, the barometer pressure paradox CANNOT BE EXPLAINED AT ALL.

Richard Lindzen tried, some 40 years ago, to include the effects of ozone and water absorption in the atmospheric tide equations; notwithstanding that in his original paper he did express some doubts, the scientific community happily concluded that the barometer pressure paradox has been solved.


Not by a long shot.

Here is S.J. Woolnough's paper detailing the gross error/omission made by Lindzen.

http://cree.rdg.ac.uk/~dynamic/index_files/papers/Woolnough_et_al_2004.pdf

While the surface pressure signal of the simulated atmospheric tides in the model agree well with both theory and observations in their magnitude and phase, sensitivity experiments suggest that the role of the stratospheric ozone in forcing the semidiurnal tide is much reduced compared to theoretical predictions. Furthermore, the influence of the cloud radiative effects seems small. It is suggested that the radiative heating profile in the troposphere, associated primarily with the water vapor distribution, is more important than previously thought for driving the semidiurnal tide.

Offline UnionsOfSolarSystemPlanet

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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2016, 08:37:50 AM »
Just to be clear, the moon pulling on one side the Ocean, somehow makes the Ocean on the other side of the world rise as well?
Remember this:
Gravity always attract.
The range of gravity is infinite.
Gravity cannot be shielded or absorbed.
The strength of gravity follows the inverse square law.

That means all side of Earth is affected by the Moon's gravity and the side of Earth pointing to the Moon accelerates faster than the far side, creating the illusion of 2 high tides viewed from the center. (It's disputed that the antipodal tide are entirely caused by gravity, but i'll leave that to the expert to solve that)
The size of the Solar system if the Moon were only 1 pixel:
http://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html

Offline Unsure101

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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2016, 11:06:39 AM »
No other FE model can explain the tides.

But I can.

It is the pressure of the ether waves, which causes these tidal effects.

I have already documented the existence of these waves, see the Dayton Miller experiments, and the T. Henry Moray experiments.

Let us remember Dr. Nikola Tesla's words: "Ether will behave as a solid to a liquid, and as a liquid to a solid."

"Over the oceans, the gravitational pull is greater than over the continents, though according to the theory of gravitation the reverse should be true; the hypothesis of isostasy also is unable to explain this phenomenon. The gravitational pull drops at the coast line of the continents. Furthermore, the distribution of gravitation in the sea often has the peculiarity of being stronger where the water is deeper. “In the whole Gulf and Caribbean region the generalization seems to hold that the deeper the water, the more strongly positive the anomalies.”

As far as observations could establish, the sea tides do not influence the plumb line, which is contrary to what is expected. Observations on reservoirs of water, where the mass of water could be increased and decreased, gave none of the results anticipated on the basis of the theory of gravitation."


ATMOSPHERIC TIDE PARADOX

"It has been known now for two and a half centuries, that there are more or less daily variations in the height of the barometer, culminating in two maxima and two minima during the course of 24 hours. The same observation has been made and puzzled over at every station at which pressure records were kept and studied, but without success in finding for it the complete physical explanation."


First, the correct station pressure data as it is measured all around the world.

First reference.

NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DATA:


The most basic change in pressure is the twice daily rise and fall in due to the heating from the sun. Each day, around 4 a.m./p.m. the pressure is at its lowest and near its peak around 10 a.m./p.m. The magnitude of the daily cycle is greatest near the equator decreasing toward the poles.

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/yos/resource/JetStream/atmos/pressure.htm

Each day, around 4 a.m./p.m. the pressure is at its lowest and near its peak around 10 a.m./p.m.


Second reference.

GRAPHS SHOWING THE DAILY SEMIDIURNAL BAROMETRIC PRESSURE CHANGES AT 10:00 AM/10:00 PM (MAXIMUMS) AND 4:00 PM/4:00 AM (MINIMUMS):

http://www.geografia.fflch.usp.br/graduacao/apoio/Apoio/Apoio_Elisa/flg0355/textos/Ahrens_cap9.pdf (PG. 211)


Third reference.

A remarkable characteristic of the semi-diurnal barometric variation is the regularity of the occurrence of the maxima and minima and their uniformity in time of day in all latitudes. While the amplitude of these waves may vary greatly with latitude, with elevation, and with location, whether over the sea or over the land, the local times of maxima and minima are very constant.

http://www.archive.org/stream/bulletinobserv06terruoft/bulletinobserv06terruoft_djvu.txt
(Bulletin of Applied Physical Science)


A remarkable characteristic of the semi-diurnal barometric variation is the regularity of the occurrence of the maxima and minima and their uniformity in time of day in all latitudes.

ALL LATITUDES, no exception recorded.

EVER.


Fourth reference.

It has been known now for two and a half centuries, that there are more or less daily variations in the height of the barometer, culminating in two maxima and two minima during the course of 24 hours. The same observation has been made and puzzled over at every station at which pressure records were kept and studied, but without success in finding for it the complete physical explanation. In speaking of the diurnal and semidiurnal variations of the barometer, Lord Rayleigh says: ‘The relative magnitude of the latter [semidiurnal variations], as observed at most parts of the earth’s surface, is still a mystery, all the attempted explanations being illusory.



Fifth reference.

The atmospheric pressure is greatest at about 10:00 a.m. and 10:00 pm. and least at about 4:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. The variations are primarily the result of the combined effects of the sun's gravitational attraction and solar heating, with solar heating being the major component.

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00001262/00001


THIS REFERENCE EVEN HAS A GRAPH ATTACHED WHICH DOES SHOW THE 10:00 AM AND 10:00 PM MAXIMUMS (PAGE 569).


The best reference from Soil Engineering.

The atmospheric pressure is greatest at about 10:00 a.m. and 10:00 pm. and least at about 4:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m.


Sixth reference.

The barometric pressure curve shows a portion of the normal twice-daily oscillation that occurs due to solar and lunar gravitational forces (atmospheric tides), with high pressures at approximately 10:00 AM and PM, and low pressures at 4:00 AM and PM.

http://info.ngwa.org/gwol/pdf/930158405.PDF


Seventh reference.


http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap01/diurnal.html

Surface pressure measurements in Taiwan (at 25 deg. N) are least around 4am and (especially) 4 pm Local Standard Time, and most around (especially) 10am, and 10pm LST; the amplitude of the semidiurnal cycle is about 1.4 hPa.


Eighth reference.


http://books.google.ro/books?id=vNkZAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA217&lpg=RA1-PA217&dq=barometer+pressure+semidiurnal+change+10+am+4+pm&source=bl&ots=zgQHfJMC_w&sig=NMbmgLuqwPVwEfGVp3WuSu8Mdgg&hl=ro&sa=X&ei=-As4UqWRL4qp4ATI2ICIBA&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=barometer%20pressure%20semidiurnal%20change%2010%20am%204%20pm&f=false

THIS IS REAL SCIENCE: DAILY SEMIDIURNAL CHANGES IN THE BAROMETER PRESSURE READING.

Maximums at 10:00 am and 10:00 pm, and minimums at 4:00 am and 4:00 pm.



Ninth reference.

Humboldt carried a barometer with him on his famous South American journeys of 1799-1804. In his book Cosmos he remarked that the two daily maxima at about 10 a.m. and 10 p.m. were so regular that his barometer could serve somewhat as a clock.

http://www-eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/29_Atmos_Tides.pdf

U.S. Weather Bureau, “Ten-Year Normals of Pressure Tendencies and Hourly Station Pressures for the United States,”
Technical Paper No. 1, Washington, D.C. 1943.

Semidiurnal variations: maximums at 10:00 am/10:00 pm and minimums at 4:00 pm/4:00 am


Surface pressure exhibits a remarkably stable semidiurnal oscillation with maxima at 10 a.m. and 10 p.m. and minima at 4 a.m. and 4 p.m. local time. This semidiurnal oscillation in surface pressure is a universal phenomenon observed worldwide and can be identified even in disturbed weather conditions.

http://amselvam.webs.com/SEN1/bio2met.htm



NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DATA:


The most basic change in pressure is the twice daily rise and fall in due to the heating from the sun. Each day, around 4 a.m./p.m. the pressure is at its lowest and near its peak around 10 a.m./p.m.


A remarkable characteristic of the semi-diurnal barometric variation is the regularity of the occurrence of the maxima and minima and their uniformity in time of day in all latitudes. (Bulletin of Applied Physical Science)


ALL LATITUDES, no exception recorded.

Surface pressure exhibits a remarkably stable semidiurnal oscillation with maxima at 10 a.m. and 10 p.m. and minima at 4 a.m. and 4 p.m. local time. This semidiurnal oscillation in surface pressure is a universal phenomenon observed worldwide and can be identified even in disturbed weather conditions.


BAROMETER PRESSURE PARADOX

One maximum is at 10 a.m., the other at 10 p.m.; the two minima are at 4 a.m. and 4 p.m.

The heating effect of the sun can explain neither the time when the maxima appear nor the time of the minima of these semidiurnal variations.

If the pressure becomes lower without the air becoming lighter through a lateral expansion due to heat, this must mean that the same mass of air gravitates with changing force at different hours.


Lord Rayleigh: ‘The relative magnitude of the latter [semidiurnal variations], as observed at most parts of the earth’s surface, is still a mystery, all the attempted explanations being illusory.’



Currently, the barometer pressure paradox CANNOT BE EXPLAINED AT ALL.

Richard Lindzen tried, some 40 years ago, to include the effects of ozone and water absorption in the atmospheric tide equations; notwithstanding that in his original paper he did express some doubts, the scientific community happily concluded that the barometer pressure paradox has been solved.


Not by a long shot.

Here is S.J. Woolnough's paper detailing the gross error/omission made by Lindzen.

http://cree.rdg.ac.uk/~dynamic/index_files/papers/Woolnough_et_al_2004.pdf

While the surface pressure signal of the simulated atmospheric tides in the model agree well with both theory and observations in their magnitude and phase, sensitivity experiments suggest that the role of the stratospheric ozone in forcing the semidiurnal tide is much reduced compared to theoretical predictions. Furthermore, the influence of the cloud radiative effects seems small. It is suggested that the radiative heating profile in the troposphere, associated primarily with the water vapor distribution, is more important than previously thought for driving the semidiurnal tide.
So Sandoval has given his lecture with many of the references made to findings from the dark ages, but failed to actually answer anything.
What is your reason for the tides?

Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2016, 03:08:44 PM »
That explanation for the tides is incorrect.  It's the gravity gradient, not centrifugal force, that causes the antipodal tide.  Gravity is strongest at the near side and weakest at the far side.  But relative to the center of the earth, the resultant force is outward at those points.

Found an interesting website supporting that explanation.  Frankly, it is beyond my level of math education.

Either way, it appears the Jury is still out on how Tides work on a round earth. A little unfair to come here and demand explanations for something on a "theoretical" flat earth when it is clearly not fully understood for the round model either.

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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2016, 02:55:32 AM »
That explanation for the tides is incorrect.  It's the gravity gradient, not centrifugal force, that causes the antipodal tide.  Gravity is strongest at the near side and weakest at the far side.  But relative to the center of the earth, the resultant force is outward at those points.

Found an interesting website supporting that explanation.  Frankly, it is beyond my level of math education.

Either way, it appears the Jury is still out on how Tides work on a round earth. A little unfair to come here and demand explanations for something on a "theoretical" flat earth when it is clearly not fully understood for the round model either.


No, we understand tides perfectly well.  They are caused by gravity gradients.  Some people think that they are caused by centrifugal force, but that is a misconception.  The mere existence of misconceptions does not invalidate the correct explanation. 


Sandokhan's overly-long lecture on atmospheric tides makes it seem like we have no idea what causes them to behave like they do, which is not the case.  Atmospheric tides are far more nuanced than oceanic tides, but they are extensively studied and understood. 
But FE has produced no viable explanations.  None at all.  If aether waves are responsible, why do the tides correlate with the position of the moon and sun? 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 12:44:22 PM by BlueMoon »
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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2016, 05:03:46 AM »
Atmospheric tides are completely and absolutely NOT UNDERSTOOD at the present time.

No one, from Lord Rayleigh to any of the scientists of today, can explain the barometer pressure paradox.

It defies the accepted "law" of attractive gravitation.

"It has been known now for two and a half centuries, that there are more or less daily variations in the height of the barometer, culminating in two maxima and two minima during the course of 24 hours. The same observation has been made and puzzled over at every station at which pressure records were kept and studied, but without success in finding for it the complete physical explanation."

One maximum is at 10 a.m., the other at 10 p.m.; the two minima are at 4 a.m. and 4 p.m.

The heating effect of the sun can explain neither the time when the maxima appear nor the time of the minima of these semidiurnal variations.

If the pressure becomes lower without the air becoming lighter through a lateral expansion due to heat, this must mean that the same mass of air gravitates with changing force at different hours.



Lord Rayleigh: ‘The relative magnitude of the latter [semidiurnal variations], as observed at most parts of the earth’s surface, is still a mystery, all the attempted explanations being illusory.’


Tides are caused by the periodic pressure exerted by telluric waves (ether waves) on a flat earth.

Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2016, 07:20:42 AM »
More qualified to speak for NASA than you are to speak against them.

In order to meet the lowest standards of qualifications (don't worry, virtually all RE have not met them, we include here Carl Sagan, N. dG Tyson and the rest), you MUST solve the faint young sun paradox.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1707290#msg1707290

No RE at the present time can solve the faint young sun paradox: therefore they are not qualified to defend, or speak for, anything pertaining to the RET.

The faint young sun paradox is the most devastating argument to be used against Newtonian astrophysics.

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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2016, 07:58:15 AM »
But FE has produced no viable explanations.  None at all.  If aether waves are responsible, why do the tides correlate with the position of the moon and sun?
Are you suggesting that correlation implies causation?
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2016, 12:41:20 PM »
But FE has produced no viable explanations.  None at all.  If aether waves are responsible, why do the tides correlate with the position of the moon and sun?
Are you suggesting that correlation implies causation?
In this case, yes.  When I said "correlate," I really meant "match perfectly and consistently, excluding local irregularities like geography and air pressure." 
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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2016, 01:01:01 PM »
More qualified to speak for NASA than you are to speak against them.

In order to meet the lowest standards of qualifications (don't worry, virtually all RE have not met them, we include here Carl Sagan, N. dG Tyson and the rest), you MUST solve the faint young sun paradox.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1707290#msg1707290

No RE at the present time can solve the faint young sun paradox: therefore they are not qualified to defend, or speak for, anything pertaining to the RET.

The faint young sun paradox is the most devastating argument to be used against Newtonian astrophysics.


Is it now?  It's only a contradiction if you assume the same amount of greenhouse heating then as in modern times and don't factor in the stronger tidal heating from the moon, which was much closer at the time.  We don't lose too much sleep over it. 


But I didn't say I'm more qualified to defend climatologists; I'm more qualified to defend NASA, spacecraft, and gravity.  This comes from a lifetime of fascination, and 10+ years of serious study. 
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Re: Why are there two high and low tides each day, etc.?
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2016, 02:04:28 PM »
No one has been able to solve the faint young sun paradox.

This paradox is of outmost importance, since it demolishes the accepted age of the planetary system as a whole.

You cannot use the moon tidal heating argument.

"Currently, the moon is moving outward from the earth by 3.82 cm/yr (1.5 in/yr). However, this recession is highly nonlinear and would have been greater in the past. If one assumes unlimited extrapolation back in time, gravity theory shows the moon in direct physical contact with earth about 1.55 billion years ago. This is not to say that the moon was ever this near or this old. In fact, a moon located anywhere in the vicinity of the earth would be fragmented, resulting in a Saturn-like ring of debris encircling the earth. This follows because the earth’s gravity force would overcome the moon’s own cohesive force. The tides lead to a limited time scale for the moon, far less than 1.55 billion years. However, evolutionists assume that the moon and solar system are 4.6 billion years old. Also, life is said to have originated on earth about 3.5 billion years ago. The fundamental problem with the evolutionary time scale is obvious."

You just went to the wikipedia page and copied and information there on the moon tidal heating, without giving it a second thought.

Obviously, then, you have no knowledge of one of the most debated scientific issues of current times:

WHAT WAS THE RECESSION RATE OF THE MOON?

No scientist today can explain the SUDDEN increase in the rate of the recession, needed to elucidate the current orbit of the Moon.


I'm more qualified to defend NASA, spacecraft, and gravity.  This comes from a lifetime of fascination, and 10+ years of serious study.

We are going to see just how qualified you are.

THREE BODY PROBLEM PARADOX

Here are the official RE equations of motion:



In the RET model, NOT EVEN the three body problem can be explained/described mathematically by a set of differential equations.

That is, the three body problem cannot be explained using the conventional approach: attractive gravity. A system consisting of a star (Sun), a planet (Earth), and a satellite of the planet (Moon) cannot be described mathematically; this fact was discovered long ago by Henri Poincare, and was hidden from public view:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg987360#msg987360

(KAM theory, homoclinic orbits, Smale horseshoes)


The quote from Henri Poincare, the greatest mathematician in the world at the end of the 19th century (S. Ramanujan was to appear some ten years later on the scene), has been deleted/censored from textbooks on the celestial mechanics at the undergraduate/graduate level.

A differential equation (initial value d.e.) approach to celestial mechanics IS IMPOSSIBLE.

As Poincare experimented, he was relieved to discover that in most of
the situations, the possible orbits varied only slightly from the initial
2-body orbit, and were still stable, but what occurred during further
experimentation was a shock. Poincare discovered that even in some of the
smallest approximations some orbits behaved in an erratic unstable manner. His
calculations showed that even a minute gravitational pull from a third body
might cause a planet to wobble and fly out of orbit all together.

Here is Poincare describing his findings:

While Poincare did not succeed in giving a complete solution, his work was so impressive that he was awarded the prize anyway. The distinguished Weierstrass, who was one of the judges, said, 'this work cannot indeed be considered as furnishing the complete solution of the question proposed, but that it is nevertheless of such importance that its publication will inaugurate a new era in the history of celestial mechanics.' A lively account of this event is given in Newton's Clock: Chaos in the Solar System. To show how visionary Poincare was, it is perhaps best if he described the Hallmark of Chaos - sensitive dependence on initial conditions - in his own words:

'If we knew exactly the laws of nature and the situation of the universe at the initial moment, we could predict exactly the situation of that same universe at a succeeding moment. but even if it were the case that the natural laws had no longer any secret for us, we could still only know the initial situation approximately. If that enabled us to predict the succeeding situation with the same approximation, that is all we require, and we should say that the phenomenon had been predicted, that it is governed by laws. But it is not always so; it may happen that small differences in the initial conditions produce very great ones in the final phenomena. A small error in the former will produce an enormous error in the latter. Prediction becomes impossible, and we have the fortuitous phenomenon.' - in a 1903 essay 'Science and Method'


That is why the conspirators had to invent a very complicated new theory, called chaos theory, with the help of G.D. Birkhoff and N. Levinson; their work was the inspiration for S. Smale's horseshoe map, a very clever way to describe Poincare's original findings as "workable" and "manageable". The formidable implications are, of course, that chaotical motion of the planets predicted by the differential equation approach of the London Royal Society is a thing that could happen ANYTIME, and not just some millions of years in the future, not to mention the sensitive dependence on initial conditions phenomenon.

Even measuring initial conditions of the system to an arbitrarily high, but finite accuracy, we will not be able to describe the system dynamics "at any time in the past or future". To predict the future of a chaotic system for arbitrarily long times, one would need to know the initial conditions with infinite accuracy, and this is by no means possible.

This is why the computer model of Jacques Laskar is pure fantasy, as it is completely detached from reality.


http://ptrow.com/articles/ChaosandSolarSystem5.htm


http://web.archive.org/web/20090108031631/http://essay.studyarea.com/old_essay/science/chaos_theory_explained.htm

RE theory requires a full void, otherwise the equations which "describe" the orbits of the planets will have to include friction terms.


KEPLER MOTION

In an appropriate coordinate system, the motion of a planet around the sun (considered as fixed) with the attractive force being proportional to the inverse square of the distance /z/ of the planet from the sun is given by the solution of the second order conservative system with the potential function -/z/^-1 for z =/0.

A mechanical system without friction can be described in the Hamiltonian formulation.

References for Celestial Mechanics and Hamiltonian mechanics:

V.I. Arnold, Mathematical Methods of Classical Mechanics, Springer-Verlag, 1978

C.L. Siegel and J. Moser, Lectures on Celestial Mechanics, Springer-Verlag, 1971

J. Moser, Stable and Random Motions in Dynamical Systems, Princeton Univ. Press, 1973

Area Preserving Maps, Nonintegrable/Nearly Integrable Hamiltonians, KAM Theory:

http://www.math.rug.nl/~broer/pdf/kolmo100.pdf




Here is an introduction to homoclinic tangles/orbits, explained visually:

http://www.math.umn.edu/~rmoeckel/presentations/PoincareTalk.pdf



Now, let us get more technical in describing the stability of the heliocentrical solar system.

Two of the greatest Soviet mathematicians of the 20th century, A.N. Kolmogorov and V.I. Arnold asked the following question: to what extent the geometric structure of the quasi-periodic dynamics of a Hamiltonian system persists under small perturbations that destroy the toroidal symmetry?

This led to the famous KAM theory (Kolmogorov-Arnold-Moser); however, it is valid for "sufficiently" small perturbations.

In reality, the perturbations in the solar system are far too large to apply KAM theory.

So, the mathematicians have to rely on computing Lyapunov exponents, in order to try to predict any region of instability/chaos.

Even in this case, the measured Lyapunov exponent may have no relation to the true exponent: great care has to be taken in computing such quantities.

In 1989, J. Laskar proudly announced that the exponential divergence time for the solar system is 5 million years.

However, again, this calculation DOES NOT take into account the sensitivity of the results due to uncertainties of the knowledge of true masses and the INITIAL CONDITIONS of the planets.


Jack Wisdom (MIT): It is not possible to exclude the possibility that the orbit of the Earth will suddenly exhibit similar wild excursions in eccentricity.

The exponential divergence of chaotic trajectories precludes long-term prediction given the limited knowledge of the state of our solar system.

Lyapunov exponents and symplectic integration.


Let d(t) be the distance between two solutions, with d(0) being their initial separation. Then d(t) increases approximately as d(0)eλt in a chaotic system, where λ is the Lyapunov exponent. The inverse of the Lyapunov exponent, 1/λ, is called the Lyapunov time, and measures how long it takes two nearby solutions to diverge by a factor of e.

Since the solar system is not integrable, and experiences unpredictable small perturbations, it cannot lie permanently on a KAM torus, and is thus chaotic.


Sussman and Wisdom's 1992 integration of the entire solar system displayed a disturbing dependence on the timestep of the integration (measurement of the Lyapunov time).


Thus, different researchers who draw their initial conditions from the same ephemeris at different times can find vastly different Lyapunov timescales.

Wayne Hayes, UC Irvine


To show the importance and the dependence on the sensitivity of the initial conditions of the set of differential equations, an error as small as 15 meters in measuring the position of the Earth today would make it impossible to predict where the Earth would be in its orbit in just over 100 million years' time.


To put it bluntly: there is no way to predict anything pertaining to the heliocentrical solar system based on Newton's description of the orbit of the planets using a set of nonlinear differential equations.


Poincare showed that the problem is not integrable. Most orbits are unstable and may be chaotic, which means that arbitrarily close initial conditions result in orbits that separate exponentially and cannot be computed numerically for arbitrarily long times.

It has ALREADY been proven that the three body problem is not integrable; the sensitivity property holds without resorting to numerical solutions (these solutions just show the extraordinary dimension of the entire problem).

Now, so that everybody will understand the nature of the problem, a technical incursion into the three body problem.

Hyperbolic periodic solutions have stable and unstable manifolds consisting of solutions which converge to the periodic solution as t > ±infinity. Poincare called these asymptotic solutions. A solution which lies in the both the stable and unstable manifolds approaches the periodic solution in both time directions and is called bi-asymptotic.

Poincare’s famous paragraph quoted in the first page of this thread arose from his realization that while the stable and unstable curve had to intersect, they did not have to overlap exactly. In fact, more likely, they could intersect transversely.

Then because they are invariant the hyperbolic dynamics forces them to fold and cross in a very complicated manner.

Thus we arrive the phenomenon knows as homoclinic tangle.

Poincare discovered that even in some of the smallest approximations some orbits behaved in an erratic unstable manner. His calculations showed that even a minute gravitational pull from a third body might cause a planet to wobble and fly out of orbit all together.

THE MORE COMPLICATED THE MATHEMATICAL MODEL, THE GREATER IS THE DEPENDENCE ON THE INITIAL CONDITIONS.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 02:13:03 PM by sandokhan »