#### UnionsOfSolarSystemPlanet

• 126
• The Moon orbits spherical Earth!
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2016, 06:15:32 PM »
Well you do know that it isn't accurate, but you still try to use it to your advantage.
Let's review the OP's question

Looking at the flat earth map the distance between NZ and South America is huge
The OP is referring to AEP, which is commonly used by TFES wiki.

Then rabinoz explained why the AEP is wrong because of the flight path, to those who believe it right.
He wasn't talking to you if you believe it wrong, so anymore unnecessary argument?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 06:21:06 PM by UnionsOfSolarSystemPlanet »
The size of the Solar system if the Moon were only 1 pixel:
http://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html

#### TheTruthIsOnHere

• 943
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2016, 07:16:14 PM »
Well you do know that it isn't accurate, but you still try to use it to your advantage.
Let's review the OP's question

Looking at the flat earth map the distance between NZ and South America is huge
The OP is referring to AEP, which is commonly used by TFES wiki.

Then rabinoz explained why the AEP is wrong because of the flight path, to those who believe it right.
He wasn't talking to you if you believe it wrong, so anymore unnecessary argument?

No the issue is he was told, by me, several times exactly why the AEP can not represent the Earth accurately, yet he makes a diagram which is supposed to represent some kind of scale (which how he deduced 25,400 km as the distance isn't even explained anywhere) in an attempt to mislead people.

#### rubberbands

• 56
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2016, 07:24:19 PM »
TheTruthIsOnHere --- the point Rabinoz is trying to make is that, as best we can tell, many FE'ers genuinely think that, if you went up in a spaceship or something and looked down on the Earth, what you would see would look like the AEP map. The Earth would be a disk, with the "North Pole" at the center and Antarctica all around the edge (and possibly extending indefinitely outwards in all directions, according to some people). The whole argument here is exactly what you're saying -- that the only distances AEP accurately preserves are those from some point on Earth to the North Pole.

If you believe that the AEP isn't accurate for latitude, then what is? If the Earth is flat, there must be some way to draw a map of it, on a flat piece of paper, which accurately shows all distances between points. And if that's true, then that means globes don't accurately preserve distances between points on Earth (even though everyone acts under the assumption that they do and, under those assumptions, people navigate their way across the planet with perfect accuracy every day).

If you believe that the AEP doesn't accurately preserve latitude, then you believe that, if you were to go really high up in a balloon or spaceship and look down on the Earth, you would see something other than that picture. (In fact, if you believe that "latitude" and "longitude" as they are currently defined are useful and accurate measures, then you believe the world is round.)

#### rabinoz

• 1441
• Just look South at the Stars
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2016, 12:47:58 PM »
Well you do know that it isn't accurate, but you still try to use it to your advantage.
Let's review the OP's question

Looking at the flat earth map the distance between NZ and South America is huge
The OP is referring to AEP, which is commonly used by TFES wiki.

Then rabinoz explained why the AEP is wrong because of the flight path, to those who believe it right.
He wasn't talking to you if you believe it wrong, so anymore unnecessary argument?

No the issue is he was told, by me, several times exactly why the AEP can not represent the Earth accurately, yet he makes a diagram which is supposed to represent some kind of scale (which how he deduced 25,400 km as the distance isn't even explained anywhere) in an attempt to mislead people.
I have NOT anywhere tried to deceive anyone. The North Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection IS the same shape as TFES claims the Flat Earth is!
Quote from: the Wiki
Earth
The earth is the flat astronomical body where live numerous species of plants, animals and other beings. The North Pole is the center of the earth, and South Pole is a circunference(sic) around it.
The sun and the moon are both located circa 3,000 miles above earth's surface. They have a mutual orbit (similar to a binary system orbit), which produces day and night on earth.
The stars are small astronomical bodies located circa 3,100 miles above earth and 100 miles above sun and moon orbit.

The most widely accepted map model of a flat earth.
I do believe that is a (rather crude!) North Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection, though rotated 90° compared to the Gleason's map.
Now, I do NOT think that is an accurate map of the earth, and that is the point I was trying to show.
Now I do believe the honorable thing would be for you to apologise for you accusation.
If you has a better map of the "Flat Earth" now would be a good time to show us! But, unless I am mistaken, YOU have never answered any of our questions nor presented anything other that pure negativity!

PS: I would like to have replied earlier, but I have been fighting my computer (it would not let me login!), so I had to teach it a lesson!

#### geckothegeek

##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2016, 09:43:40 PM »
Well you do know that it isn't accurate, but you still try to use it to your advantage.
Let's review the OP's question

Looking at the flat earth map the distance between NZ and South America is huge
The OP is referring to AEP, which is commonly used by TFES wiki.

Then rabinoz explained why the AEP is wrong because of the flight path, to those who believe it right.
He wasn't talking to you if you believe it wrong, so anymore unnecessary argument?

No the issue is he was told, by me, several times exactly why the AEP can not represent the Earth accurately, yet he makes a diagram which is supposed to represent some kind of scale (which how he deduced 25,400 km as the distance isn't even explained anywhere) in an attempt to mislead people.
I have NOT anywhere tried to deceive anyone. The North Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection IS the same shape as TFES claims the Flat Earth is!
Quote from: the Wiki
Earth
The earth is the flat astronomical body where live numerous species of plants, animals and other beings. The North Pole is the center of the earth, and South Pole is a circunference(sic) around it.
The sun and the moon are both located circa 3,000 miles above earth's surface. They have a mutual orbit (similar to a binary system orbit), which produces day and night on earth.
The stars are small astronomical bodies located circa 3,100 miles above earth and 100 miles above sun and moon orbit.

The most widely accepted map model of a flat earth.
I do believe that is a (rather crude!) North Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection, though rotated 90° compared to the Gleason's map.
Now, I do NOT think that is an accurate map of the earth, and that is the point I was trying to show.
Now I do believe the honorable thing would be for you to apologise for you accusation.
If you has a better map of the "Flat Earth" now would be a good time to show us! But, unless I am mistaken, YOU have never answered any of our questions nor presented anything other that pure negativity!

PS: I would like to have replied earlier, but I have been fighting my computer (it would not let me login!), so I had to teach it a lesson!

The more you read of the flat earth wiki the more fallacious it becomes. Today, in 2016, the average person with an average education (or indoctrination as the flat earthers like to say) ,and an average intelligence would find the wiki a bit humorous,  almost in its entirety. But you have to realize it was written in the 19th Century for a mostly low intelligence, even possibly illiterate audience who would just assume Rowbotham was some sort of a genius due to his skill in public speaking. Along with his PhD and  MD  degrees....Of course

If maps which are made from projections from the globe and being of a size and design to minimize distortion are so inaccurate, why do they work and why are they used every day ?Assuming the earth is a globe, which it is.

If maps which were made directly from a flat earth map and would need no projection (like making a blue print from a tracing like we did in our old Junior High School Mechanical Drawing Classes) why don't they work and why aren't they used ? Assuming there is such a thing as a flat earth map- which as yet there is none. Assuming the earth is flat - which it is not.

PS-I would  have replied earlier, too......But I have this new Nook and I'm trying to teach myself a lesson, too - how to type on the confounded thing......LOL!
And the shape of Australia looks a bit like that rodent that the flat earthers found on Mars !
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 12:06:31 AM by geckothegeek »

#### rabinoz

• 1441
• Just look South at the Stars
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2016, 10:42:36 AM »
And the shape of Australia looks a bit like that rodent that the flat earthers found on Mars !
I do hope you mean the shape of Australia on the North Polar Equidistant Azimuthal map and not "elegant" real shape.

#### geckothegeek

##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2016, 01:49:45 PM »
Well you do know that it isn't accurate, but you still try to use it to your advantage. At this point, that can only be interpreted as you being intentionally misleading.

No.......It is the flat earthers who are doing the  misleading. They don't even have an accurate map to back up their claim that te earth is flat.
Why ? Because the earth isn't FLAT.  It's a GLOBE, Flat earthers need to do a little research and study on the subject of Cartography.

#### geckothegeek

##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2016, 01:57:25 PM »
And the shape of Australia looks a bit like that rodent that the flat earthers found on Mars !
I do hope you mean the shape of Australia on the North Polar Equidistant Azimuthal map and not "elegant" real shape.

Yes.....I was referring to the AEP. LOL
On second thought Australia looks more like a pig on Gleason' Map.....There's the snout at Brisbane and the ear at the top of the vertical line on the drawing. LOL
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 02:05:26 PM by geckothegeek »

#### rabinoz

• 1441
• Just look South at the Stars
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2016, 08:18:39 AM »
And the shape of Australia looks a bit like that rodent that the flat earthers found on Mars !
I do hope you mean the shape of Australia on the North Polar Equidistant Azimuthal map and not "elegant" real shape.
Yes.....I was referring to the AEP. LOL
On second thought Australia looks more like a pig on Gleason' Map.....There's the snout at Brisbane and the ear at the top of the vertical line on the drawing. LOL
Yes, I have to admit it does, but watch the Brisbane bit! I live near there and don't know that I like the idea of of living anywhere the pig's snout.
I know the dimensions of Australia - I have driven around it and to most "corners" (certainly East, North, West, South West and Southern corners - Victoria and Tasmania). The dimensions of the Gleason's map DO NOT fit the real Australia, the "Google Earth" dimensions do fit!
Lucky for me the Southern Hemisphere definitely is a Hemisphere. I couldn't care less about the Northern HemiSphere/Plane.

#### totallackey

• 2233
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2016, 11:38:29 PM »
Hi,
I just found a direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires which takes 11 hours. It's with New Zealand air flight no anz30. Looking at the flat earth map the distance between NZ and South America is huge, i am no expert but I don't think the plane would cover the distance in 11 hours only and without anyone noticing the flight path. What are your thoughts?
Can I get a link to the flat earth map?
Does this flight go south over antartica or west?

I have not prepared maps for this route, I did not know it existed till just now. The next flight Auckland to Buenos Aries  (flight ANZ30) is:
Departs Auckland, Friday, 4 March, 7:20 pm, this is 6:20 am Friday, UTC.
Arrives Buenos Aires, Friday, 4 March, 3:00 pm, this is 6:00 pm Thursday, UTC.
These times give a gate to gate time of 11 hrs 40 min - west to east has favourable winds.
Note that the return flight takes 13 hrs 31 min - winds wrong way.

I do have maps for the Sydney to Santiago route, which is just a little longer. These flights do not go very close to Antarctica.

Below are the shortest distance routes from Sydney(Australia) to Santiago (Chile) on the Gleason's Map[1] and on Google Earth (for the Globe).
Note that the actual routes used on long distant flights will usually be chosen to fit in with the current winds. The return flight from Chile to Sydney often would be routed further south, possibly within sight of Antarctica.
 Shortest Sydney to Santiago on "Gleason Map"    about 25,400 km Great Circle Sydney to Santiago on "Google Earth"    about 11,400 km

[1] Note that while the Gleason's map is often used by Flat Earthers, it is not the "Official Map"!

I do not believe either way as of yet.

I believe the word EQUIDISTANT Gleason uses on the projection includes the idea each grid is EQUAL IN SIZE, regardless of appearance...How many grids are between Australia and South America? What is the known breadth and height of Australia?
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

#### totallackey

• 2233
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2016, 11:44:26 PM »
There needs to be a flight that goes over the south pole for this to be anything worth mentioning.

Not really.  Distance on a FE and RE will not match up somewhere.

If FE goes with the south pole at the center then flights traveling between North America and Asia would be brought up.

If someone comes up with something else the distance will not match somewhere.

The whole reason there is not an accurate FE map is because known distances can not be used to make the map.
In the post 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires « Reply #2 » (earlier in this thread) I gave the Sydney to Santiago shortest routes on the "Gleason Map" (close to the FE's "Ice Wall Map" and has some place names) and on the Globe (Google Earth Pro). The differences in routes and distances is massive. Here is a reduced size version of the maps:
 Shortest Sydney to Santiago on    "Gleason Map", about 25,400 km Great Circle Sydney to Santiago on    "Google Earth", about 11,400 km
The distance on the Gleason map had to be scaled from the Equator to North Pole distance of 10,000 km.

Dude. How many times do you have to be told that the AEP is not accurate for latitude? What is so hard to understand? Distances are accurate from the center asking the longitude ONLY.

It is accurate for latitude. You must focus on the word EQUIDISTANT.
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

#### TheTruthIsOnHere

• 943
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2016, 03:05:36 AM »
Rabinoz knows that, he just likes to doodle numbers and lines on it anyway to prove some non point. Also I'm certain he hasn't driven all around Australia with the expressed purpose of measuring the continent and making sure google maps is correct.

#### geckothegeek

##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2016, 03:23:56 AM »
Rabinoz knows that, he just likes to doodle numbers and lines on it anyway to prove some non point. Also I'm certain he hasn't driven all around Australia with the expressed purpose of measuring the continent and making sure google maps is correct.

Rand McNally probably has road maps of Australia. I would feel that if the road mileages were not accurate and proved the true size of Australia as it really is they would be getting a lot of complaints from tourists and business travelers. And if Australia has an organization such as AA-in the UK or the AAA-in the USA they would make certain their maps were accurate. You wouldn't have to drive around the country.

I have driven all over the USA and can vouch for the accuracy of the old "free oil company road maps", the current AAA maps and current Microsoft Streets and Trips software. They all are correct and agree with google maps.

The reason Gleason's Map is so distorted is simply because it's simply a copy of the North  Polar AEP.

I think I have discovered the problem. The automobile manufacturers in Australia  have programmed their odometers.
Count them in on The Great Round Earth Conspiracy.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 03:44:26 AM by geckothegeek »

#### TheTruthIsOnHere

• 943
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2016, 05:00:26 AM »
Rabinoz knows that, he just likes to doodle numbers and lines on it anyway to prove some non point. Also I'm certain he hasn't driven all around Australia with the expressed purpose of measuring the continent and making sure google maps is correct.

Rand McNally probably has road maps of Australia. I would feel that if the road mileages were not accurate and proved the true size of Australia as it really is they would be getting a lot of complaints from tourists and business travelers. And if Australia has an organization such as AA-in the UK or the AAA-in the USA they would make certain their maps were accurate. You wouldn't have to drive around the country.

I have driven all over the USA and can vouch for the accuracy of the old "free oil company road maps", the current AAA maps and current Microsoft Streets and Trips software. They all are correct and agree with google maps.

The reason Gleason's Map is so distorted is simply because it's simply a copy of the North  Polar AEP.

I think I have discovered the problem. The automobile manufacturers in Australia  have programmed their odometers.
Count them in on The Great Round Earth Conspiracy.

Is it always tag team with you guys or what? All I'm said is I doubt he drove corner to corner with debunking a flat earth projection wrong. Seems like it would be a real waste of time and gas if that's what he did. Dont know what youre even going on about in your post.

#### BlueMoon

• 127
• NASA Defender
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2016, 09:27:06 AM »
Rabinoz knows that, he just likes to doodle numbers and lines on it anyway to prove some non point. Also I'm certain he hasn't driven all around Australia with the expressed purpose of measuring the continent and making sure google maps is correct.

Rand McNally probably has road maps of Australia. I would feel that if the road mileages were not accurate and proved the true size of Australia as it really is they would be getting a lot of complaints from tourists and business travelers. And if Australia has an organization such as AA-in the UK or the AAA-in the USA they would make certain their maps were accurate. You wouldn't have to drive around the country.

I have driven all over the USA and can vouch for the accuracy of the old "free oil company road maps", the current AAA maps and current Microsoft Streets and Trips software. They all are correct and agree with google maps.

The reason Gleason's Map is so distorted is simply because it's simply a copy of the North  Polar AEP.

I think I have discovered the problem. The automobile manufacturers in Australia  have programmed their odometers.
Count them in on The Great Round Earth Conspiracy.

Is it always tag team with you guys or what? All I'm said is I doubt he drove corner to corner with debunking a flat earth projection wrong. Seems like it would be a real waste of time and gas if that's what he did. Dont know what youre even going on about in your post.
*tap tap*
Yes, it is all a tag team.  A guy can only take so much idiocy in one sitting.
Aerospace Engineering Student
NASA Enthusiast
More qualified to speak for NASA than you are to speak against them

#### geckothegeek

##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2016, 07:12:57 PM »
Rabinoz knows that, he just likes to doodle numbers and lines on it anyway to prove some non point. Also I'm certain he hasn't driven all around Australia with the expressed purpose of measuring the continent and making sure google maps is correct.

Rand McNally probably has road maps of Australia. I would feel that if the road mileages were not accurate and proved the true size of Australia as it really is they would be getting a lot of complaints from tourists and business travelers. And if Australia has an organization such as AA-in the UK or the AAA-in the USA they would make certain their maps were accurate. You wouldn't have to drive around the country.

I have driven all over the USA and can vouch for the accuracy of the old "free oil company road maps", the current AAA maps and current Microsoft Streets and Trips software. They all are correct and agree with google maps.

The reason Gleason's Map is so distorted is simply because it's simply a copy of the North  Polar AEP.

I think I have discovered the problem. The automobile manufacturers in Australia  have programmed their odometers.
Count them in on The Great Round Earth Conspiracy.

Is it always tag team with you guys or what? All I'm said is I doubt he drove corner to corner with debunking a flat earth projection wrong. Seems like it would be a real waste of time and gas if that's what he did. Dont know what youre even going on about in your post.
*tap tap*
Yes, it is all a tag team.  A guy can only take so much idiocy in one sitting.

I don't know if it's just an act or not but it seems that no matter how long or how hard you try to explain something to a flat  earther they say they don't get it or maybe they just pretend they don't get it or they don't understand it. The explanation of the North Polar AEP and why it is inaccurate for example.
I try to limit my visits to an hour or so on the FES. An hour or so of idiocy or pretended idiocy is enough.
The point of my post was that the earth is not shaped like a flat disc and there is no accurate flat earth map of the earth bcause the earth is a globe  in  case the flat earthers didn't get  the point. Havent any flat earthers ever been  to elementary school ? Maybe not ? That would be against  their religion ?

#### TheTruthIsOnHere

• 943
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2016, 08:37:13 PM »
I don't know if it's just an act or not but it seems that no matter how long or how hard you try to explain something to a flat  earther they say they don't get it or maybe they just pretend they don't get it or they don't understand it. The explanation of the North Polar AEP and why it is inaccurate for example.
I try to limit my visits to an hour or so on the FES. An hour or so of idiocy or pretended idiocy is enough.
The point of my post was that the earth is not shaped like a flat disc and there is no accurate flat earth map of the earth bcause the earth is a globe  in  case the flat earthers didn't get  the point. Havent any flat earthers ever been  to elementary school ? Maybe not ? That would be against  their religion ?

I don't know what you don't understand. I have been telling people all along that the AEP is not to be used as any kind of accurate representation, and that the only thing to scale is the distances from the north pole south along longitude.

When have I said otherwise? When did I seem confused? You are quick to come with lame insults, but your entire argument as far as I've ever seen is "the earth is round because it is." Now before you just devolve into your shell and call me a flat earther as some kind of self defense mechanism, when have I ever indicated I believed the Earth was flat? All I ever said is based on the information we have from observable phenomena that nothing is readily apparent about the shape of the Earth. The fact is, if 99% of people weren't told it was a sphere they wouldn't deduce that on their own.

Now please tell me more about how you think you're dealing with someone who hasn't been to elementary school.

#### Rounder

• 779
• What in the Sam Hill are you people talking about?
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2016, 09:00:19 PM »
Let's circle back to the original post, which may be summed up as follows: A flight from Auckland to Buenos Aires exists that lasts eleven hours.  The two flat earth maps presented in the wiki show distances between those two cities which could not be covered in that time by passenger aircraft.  This suggests that neither of the maps presented by the wiki are correct.  The open question: can anyone show us a flat earth map on which the distance between Auckland and Buenos Aires is the correct distance?
Proud member of İntikam's "Ignore List"
Ok. You proven you are unworthy to unignored. You proven it was a bad idea to unignore you. and it was for me a disgusting experience...Now you are going to place where you deserved and accustomed.
Quote from: SexWarrior
You accuse {FE} people of malice where incompetence suffice

#### Jura-Glenlivet

• 1497
• Life is meaningless & everything dies.
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2016, 09:03:18 PM »
maybe get Saddam to do us a drawing?
(http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=4808.0)
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

#### totallackey

• 2233
##### Re: 11 hr direct flight from Auckland to buenos aires
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2016, 11:02:28 PM »
Let's circle back to the original post, which may be summed up as follows: A flight from Auckland to Buenos Aires exists that lasts eleven hours.  The two flat earth maps presented in the wiki show distances between those two cities which could not be covered in that time by passenger aircraft.  This suggests that neither of the maps presented by the wiki are correct.  The open question: can anyone show us a flat earth map on which the distance between Auckland and Buenos Aires is the correct distance?

Yes, the Gleason Map is accurate. How many squares are taken up by Australia?
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.