[Woody]

If you do not want to read the whole thing:

The Bishop Experiment states the distance being about 33 miles.  On navigation charts and google maps the distanced I measured is about 23 miles.

I think it should be removed as evidence in the wiki , edited, or removed until the distance is verified.


My Argument:

I would like to openly debate the validity of the conclusions made by the Bishop Experiment. Preferably with the person who conducted the experiment. Not on any other topic but the distances claimed in the experiment.  I think we can all agree a mile is a mile.

From the wiki under experimental evidence:

http://wiki.tfes.org/Experimental_Evidence

I am assuming Tom Bishop is the person who conducted this experiment.  He states,"I live along the California Monterey Bay. It is a relatively long bay that sits next to the Pacific Ocean. The exact distance between the extremes of the Monterey Bay, Lovers Point in Pacific Grove and Lighthouse State Beach in Santa Cruz, is 33.4 statute miles."

http://imgur.com/a/BMQht

The above link is images taken from google.  I have also measured the distances on navigation charts that I will make available upon request or can guide you where you can acquire your own charts.

The distance I measured in the link provided was from about the furthest point south of Lover's point to north of the boundary of the Light House park as indicated on the charts and google maps. 

It is reasonable to assume between those two sight lines would be obstructed. For the sake of argument I selected those points from what is described in the quote below would be within the distance claimed.

 "With a good telescope, laying down on the stomach at the edge of the shore on the Lovers Point beach 20 inches above the sea level it is possible to see people at the waters edge on the adjacent beach 33 miles away near the lighthouse."

The measurement was 23.6 miles in the link provided.  I got similar results on the navigation charts I used.  Both using google maps and the navigation charts the distance between what is stated in the experiment and what the charts and google indicate the distance as is about 10 miles shorter.

My argument the conclusions from the experiment are flawed since there seems to be an error in calculating the distance.

I would also like the argue that this be removed from the wiki or edited if I am correct.  If edited the distances and calculations should be removed and leave just the observations allowing the reader to make their own judgement of the distance


From the wiki:
http://wiki.tfes.org/The_Flat_Earth_Wiki

The soldiers of truth and reason of the Flat Earth Society

The understanding I have of what I will call your mission statement is that TFES values truth and honesty.  If I am correct and the distance stated is wrong it is misleading and in my opinion not the truth.


I will please ask again to keep this about the possibility of an error in determining distance, possible flaws to the conclusion as a result and not methodology of the experiment.  As I stated before I think it is something we can agree on.

[Tom Bishop]

Yes, we are aware. The Wiki does not entirely follow the progression of the threads the content is based on. A corrected addendum was provided after the experiment was posted. It was found that ~23 miles should produce noticeable curvature as well.

An additional test was made in the same area, over a smaller portion of the bay, showing that the Monterey Bay is flat:

[Munky]

This guys test is fundamentally wrong.

Why is he not using a laser and pointing it towards the target?

Beyond where is the other test with a much longer distance of 13.25 miles? Why did he never put it up?

[Woody]

Yes, we are aware. The Wiki does not entirely follow the progression of the threads the content is based on. A corrected addendum was provided after the experiment was posted. It was found that ~23 miles should produce noticeable curvature as well.

An additional test was made in the same area, over a smaller portion of the bay, showing that the Monterey Bay is flat:

Then this is going to be addressed and the wiki edited?  You have to admit leaving it as is and having under supporting evidence in both wikis can be misleading to people who read the distances and take it at face value. 

When I first reviewed the experiment I took the stated 33.4 mile as what the actual distance was into consideration while reading your conclusions.  It was only when I looked at the linked map that it clicked for me that I was in the area before charted a course in that bay and realized the distance given maybe an error.

If it remains up as evidence in the wiki without at least noting the distance of about 23 miles then how can people trust the information in the wiki?  It is being offered as evidence of the truth. 

How is this different then NASA trying to mislead people by releasing fake images of the Earth?

You talk of conspiracies, how can I now trust TFES?  I found something false stated as fact that TFES provides as evidence.  Human error I can understand, we all make mistakes, but when that error is pointed out, is acknowledged but you leave it up as evidence that is rather prominently displayed then it can be considered at the very least an attempt to intentionally mislead people.

It does not matter that you post other videos or redid the experiment with the correct distance in mind.  What matters the evidence that is presented has a known error and it is not revealed to the person reading it. 

Where in the wiki does it state that an error was made and correct distance given?

[model 29]

Yes, we are aware. The Wiki does not entirely follow the progression of the threads the content is based on. A corrected addendum was provided after the experiment was posted. It was found that ~23 miles should produce noticeable curvature as well.

Do you have the specs for the telescope, and preferably a picture of the spot you were set up?

[Woody]

I am a bit surprised Tom is the only FE who has replied.

[Hoppy]

This guys test is fundamentally wrong.

Why is he not using a laser and pointing it towards the target?

Beyond where is the other test with a much longer distance of 13.25 miles? Why did he never put it up?

He is not pointing the laser at the target miles away because the laser beam diffuses over long distances. They did try it and the beam was not a beam by the time it went through the long distance.

[Woody]

This guys test is fundamentally wrong.

Why is he not using a laser and pointing it towards the target?

Beyond where is the other test with a much longer distance of 13.25 miles? Why did he never put it up?

He is not pointing the laser at the target miles away because the laser beam diffuses over long distances. They did try it and the beam was not a beam by the time it went through the long distance.

Just curious do you think it is wrong to continue to provide the Bishop Experiment as evidence?  Not the experiment itself but the fact the stated distance is off by 10 miles.  Tom Bishop states the distance stated is wrong and is aware of the error.  Yet no link or hint of a corrected addendum is supplied to people.  The only place I can find the correct distance for the experiment is in this thread.  It maybe somewhere and if it is it is not easy to find.

[Woody]

I am curious and hope Mr. Bishop will reply.

Where were you able to lie down and have the telescope no more than 20 inches above the water?



http://imgur.com/DJ2mczM

[juner]

I hope he replies too.  I'd love to know what model of telescope, and what eyepiece, can be used to see children splashing in the waves and people throwing frisbies from 23 miles away.  Perhaps even an up-close picture of where he laid down with that telescope.

Please refrain from low content posting in the upper fora. Warned.

[Tom Bishop]

Then this is going to be addressed and the wiki edited?  You have to admit leaving it as is and having under supporting evidence in both wikis can be misleading to people who read the distances and take it at face value.

No, I will not be editing the Wiki. I do not even have write access to it. If I ever get access, I'll fix it.

When I first reviewed the experiment I took the stated 33.4 mile as what the actual distance was into consideration while reading your conclusions.  It was only when I looked at the linked map that it clicked for me that I was in the area before charted a course in that bay and realized the distance given maybe an error.

If it remains up as evidence in the wiki without at least noting the distance of about 23 miles then how can people trust the information in the wiki?  It is being offered as evidence of the truth. 

How is this different then NASA trying to mislead people by releasing fake images of the Earth?

Mistake != Lie

[Woody]

Then this is going to be addressed and the wiki edited?  You have to admit leaving it as is and having under supporting evidence in both wikis can be misleading to people who read the distances and take it at face value.

No, I will not be editing the Wiki. I do not even have write access to it. If I ever get access, I'll fix it.

When I first reviewed the experiment I took the stated 33.4 mile as what the actual distance was into consideration while reading your conclusions.  It was only when I looked at the linked map that it clicked for me that I was in the area before charted a course in that bay and realized the distance given maybe an error.

If it remains up as evidence in the wiki without at least noting the distance of about 23 miles then how can people trust the information in the wiki?  It is being offered as evidence of the truth. 

How is this different then NASA trying to mislead people by releasing fake images of the Earth?

Mistake != Lie

No

Mistake=being human
Lie= Knowingly release false information.

If who ever has access to the wiki and you have made attempts to get then to correct it then it is out of your control.

It does bring to question why whoever is capable of editing the wiki does not change it. TFES states they are in the search of truth, it seems like this would at least be worth the short amount of time it would take to edit it.  Even if it is just leaving the observations and removing the calculations and distance.   

[CableDawg]

This guys test is fundamentally wrong.

Why is he not using a laser and pointing it towards the target?

Beyond where is the other test with a much longer distance of 13.25 miles? Why did he never put it up?

He is not pointing the laser at the target miles away because the laser beam diffuses over long distances. They did try it and the beam was not a beam by the time it went through the long distance.

Just curious do you think it is wrong to continue to provide the Bishop Experiment as evidence?  Not the experiment itself but the fact the stated distance is off by 10 miles.  Tom Bishop states the distance stated is wrong and is aware of the error.  Yet no link or hint of a corrected addendum is supplied to people.  The only place I can find the correct distance for the experiment is in this thread.  It maybe somewhere and if it is it is not easy to find.

The zetetic method is not to self correct.  The zetetic method is to rely only on that which you can see for yourself and discount all else as false.  Except, of course, when it comes to actually doing experiments.  They will gladly accept that which they have not witnessed as long as it readily agrees with their particular worldview or can be made to fit their worldview in some fashion.

They denigrate science for the errors of the past which are corrected as time goes on and knowledge is gained yet they have no self correcting mechanism in place for their theories and beliefs.