Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2015, 02:38:28 AM »
i just thought of a really nerdy way to explain how i conceptualize lightsaber duels, so i'm sharing it now because why not:

i think the luke skywalker circa empire strikes back beats jaime lannister in a lightsaber duel, and handily.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2015, 07:14:18 PM »
Oh yeah, plot holes like nobody's business.


"Hi, I'm Rey.  I just discovered the force an hour ago and now I'm mind controlling. Lol."

Rey seems to know all the stories from Ep 4-6, so I think she was trying what she knew.  She also was trained as a Jedi when very young, so she maybe has some vestigial memory of that.
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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2015, 07:15:26 PM »
It's probably worse than the prequels. It's just one giant fan service, plot hole ridden mess.

No way.  This movie has good characters with heart.
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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2015, 07:21:52 PM »
I don't think him killing Han decided anything once and for all. That seems way too absolute. Anakin murdered all the younglings, killed Mace Windu, killed his former Jedi master Obi-Wan (as Darth Vader), and still went back to the Light Side in the end.
He clearly made his choice though.

And one good deed hardly means Vader went back to the light side. I never understood that, he was responsible for so much death and destruction but when he saves his kid he's redeemed? No.

He didn't just save his kid, he threw his old master to his death and sacrificed his own life to do so.  Anyway, this redemption is not like Christianity where you have a ledger of sins that must be atoned for, it is something that happens in the heart.
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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2015, 07:25:37 PM »
Sorry for the quadruple post btw, just catching up.

On the notion of Rey being an untrained combatant, she obviously had some skill as demonstrated by her proficiency with the staff on Jakku.
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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2015, 07:46:55 PM »
Rey being trained as a jedi from a young age is not yet known, unless the novel expounds on that.  It can be inferred given her proficiency with force powers.  A popular fan theory is she was trained at Luke's academy, likely because she is his daughter, and Ben couldn't bring himself to kill her, so she is the sole survivor of the massacre. In order to protect her from his own fate a la Snoke, he erases her memories and leaves her on Jakks where he assumes she will be left out of any conflicts that could awaken the force in her again, leaving her hidden from Snoke. He could have potentially erased his own memory of that event in order to bury it forever.

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2015, 07:59:17 PM »
I don't think him killing Han decided anything once and for all. That seems way too absolute. Anakin murdered all the younglings, killed Mace Windu, killed his former Jedi master Obi-Wan (as Darth Vader), and still went back to the Light Side in the end.
He clearly made his choice though.

And one good deed hardly means Vader went back to the light side. I never understood that, he was responsible for so much death and destruction but when he saves his kid he's redeemed? No.

He didn't just save his kid, he threw his old master to his death and sacrificed his own life to do so.  Anyway, this redemption is not like Christianity where you have a ledger of sins that must be atoned for, it is something that happens in the heart.
Nah, that shit doesn't cut it for me. He killed sooooo many innocent people. Fuck you, Vader!

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2015, 08:01:34 PM »
Sorry for the quadruple post btw, just catching up.

If only there was some kind of "edit" function so we wouldn't always have to make a new post every time we think of something else to say.

Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2015, 08:35:11 PM »
I don't think him killing Han decided anything once and for all. That seems way too absolute. Anakin murdered all the younglings, killed Mace Windu, killed his former Jedi master Obi-Wan (as Darth Vader), and still went back to the Light Side in the end.
He clearly made his choice though.

And one good deed hardly means Vader went back to the light side. I never understood that, he was responsible for so much death and destruction but when he saves his kid he's redeemed? No.

He didn't just save his kid, he threw his old master to his death and sacrificed his own life to do so.  Anyway, this redemption is not like Christianity where you have a ledger of sins that must be atoned for, it is something that happens in the heart.
Nah, that shit doesn't cut it for me. He killed sooooo many innocent people. Fuck you, Vader!
You seem to be under the impression the force gives a damn about light and dark. Vader could have simply appeared because he found peace with himself and was able to join the force.  The internal conflict was resolved.  Palpatine probably became one with the force as well, he's just a dick so he wouldn't show up to a bunch of good guys.

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2015, 09:15:33 PM »
What? I'm not even talking about his spirit showing up. I'm just talking about what a douche he was and the audience is okay with it cause he saved Luke.

In the real world, people are typically not okay with someone that evil just because they sacrificed themselves for one person. Vader is a dick.

Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2015, 09:38:54 PM »
What? I'm not even talking about his spirit showing up. I'm just talking about what a douche he was and the audience is okay with it cause he saved Luke.

In the real world, people are typically not okay with someone that evil just because they sacrificed themselves for one person. Vader is a dick.


Oh.
Then yeah, totally doesn't balance.


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Offline beardo

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2015, 10:40:06 PM »
When Jedi fall to the dark side, they pretty much turns into a different person. And when they redeem themselves, they return to being the person they were before the fall.
Vader slaughtered those kids and Jedi, not Anakin.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 02:23:36 AM by beardo »
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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #52 on: December 24, 2015, 12:09:31 AM »
When Jedi fall to the dark side, they pretty much turns into a different person. And when they redeems themselves, they returns to being the person they were before the fall.
Vader slaughtered those kids and Jedi, not Anakin.
I've never heard that excuse before. But it's a nice way to not take responsibility for anything in the Star Wars universe.

I don't know why we're even focusing on this.

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2015, 01:02:57 AM »
When Jedi fall to the dark side, they pretty much turns into a different person. And when they redeems themselves, they returns to being the person they were before the fall.
Vader slaughtered those kids and Jedi, not Anakin.
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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2015, 03:03:52 AM »
What? I'm not even talking about his spirit showing up. I'm just talking about what a douche he was and the audience is okay with it cause he saved Luke.

In the real world, people are typically not okay with someone that evil just because they sacrificed themselves for one person. Vader is a dick.

People don't like him because he saved Luke. They like him because he redeemed himself and turned away from the Dark Side at great personal cost.
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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #55 on: December 25, 2015, 02:58:58 AM »
I liked the new one okay. Saw the prequels first so i dont have a huge attachement like some people do

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #56 on: December 25, 2015, 05:10:14 AM »
Sorry for the quadruple post btw, just catching up.

If only there was some kind of "edit" function so we wouldn't always have to make a new post every time we think of something else to say.

I was responding to a different quote in every case.  Sorry my work flow sucks.  My bad!

What? I'm not even talking about his spirit showing up. I'm just talking about what a douche he was and the audience is okay with it cause he saved Luke.

In the real world, people are typically not okay with someone that evil just because they sacrificed themselves for one person. Vader is a dick.

He didn't sacrifice himself for one person.  One person prompted his sacrifice, but the death of the emperor likely saved millions of lives.  I suppose my other question is, how many people must one make a selfless sacrifice for to atone for their crimes?
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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #57 on: December 25, 2015, 05:51:19 AM »
I was responding to a different quote in every case.  Sorry my work flow sucks.  My bad!

There's also an "insert quote" function, or you could open a new tab when you quote someone so you can copypasta all the text into one message.  Could you please edit it into one post?  I'm sorry to sound rude, but it looks so annoying to see four posts from the same person in a row like that.  I mean, fine if nobody replies and sometime later you bump it with a new message, but in a situation like this is just...no.  It's like somebody says something in a conversation, turns around to leave, and then turns around again and yells "And another thing!"  Multiple times, too.

Back on topic, I don't think it's right to be weighing lives cost versus lives saved like it's some kind of zero-sum game.  Without going so far as to say something trite about it being the thought that counts, what's important about Vader's redemption is that he finally managed to turn against the Emperor and do some good.  I don't know if anyone would say that "excuses" the terrible things he did, but it was enough to show Luke the good man that his father had once been wasn't wholly gone.

The prequels, of course, managed to ruin this contrast by portraying Anakin Skywalker not as the brilliant Jedi, loyal friend, and all-around awesome guy that the characters in the original trilogy described him as, but as a spoiled, selfish, whiny asshole who was only ever a mediocre Jedi.  But bullshit from the prequels is best left ignored in a case like this.

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #58 on: December 25, 2015, 07:16:53 PM »
I was responding to a different quote in every case.  Sorry my work flow sucks.  My bad!

There's also an "insert quote" function, or you could open a new tab when you quote someone so you can copypasta all the text into one message.  Could you please edit it into one post?  I'm sorry to sound rude, but it looks so annoying to see four posts from the same person in a row like that.  I mean, fine if nobody replies and sometime later you bump it with a new message, but in a situation like this is just...no.  It's like somebody says something in a conversation, turns around to leave, and then turns around again and yells "And another thing!"  Multiple times, too.

Yeah, I already apologized and did exactly what you say here so maybe, let it go?

Quote
Back on topic, I don't think it's right to be weighing lives cost versus lives saved like it's some kind of zero-sum game.  Without going so far as to say something trite about it being the thought that counts, what's important about Vader's redemption is that he finally managed to turn against the Emperor and do some good.  I don't know if anyone would say that "excuses" the terrible things he did, but it was enough to show Luke the good man that his father had once been wasn't wholly gone.

Totally agree. Vader's redemption was personal and never meant to make him a venerated figure in galactic society. Luke accepts it, because of his compassion for Vader's pain and because his intuition lets him perceive the totality of Vader's atonement but I fully expect everyone else, including Leah, would spit on his grave.

The prequels, of course, managed to ruin this contrast by portraying Anakin Skywalker not as the brilliant Jedi, loyal friend, and all-around awesome guy that the characters in the original trilogy described him as, but as a spoiled, selfish, whiny asshole who was only ever a mediocre Jedi.  But bullshit from the prequels is best left ignored in a case like this.
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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #59 on: December 25, 2015, 08:06:03 PM »
Holy fuck can you stop memberating already