Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2015, 01:37:18 AM »
even if no american citizens in 1941 owned any guns, the difference would have been negligible from japan's perspective.  america was too large, too populated, and too far away to be conquered by the imperial army.  conquering america wasn't an objective of the imperial army in ww2.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2015, 02:34:26 AM »
Which is why nearly all military studies consider the attack on Pearl Harbor to be one of the dumbest strategic moves ever committed by a modern nation.

Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2015, 03:48:15 AM »
[hindsight]even that might be putting it lightly.  it really can't be any worse than the second-worst military decision made in the 20th century.  the wehrmacht's invasion of the ussr takes first place for me, but it's probably a toss-up.[/hindsight]
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 03:50:07 AM by garygreen »
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Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2015, 08:25:36 AM »
No, the Nazis invading the Soviet Union is definitely #1. Probably of all time even.

Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2015, 09:59:40 AM »
One of the great deceptions of the official line on history: it was the USSR which invaded Germany and not the other way around.

The extraordinary account, in the one of the great classics of 20th century, ICEBREAKER: Who Started World War II:

V. Suvorov - Icebreaker

Suvorov challenges the widely-accepted view that Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime attacked an unsuspecting USSR on June 22, 1941 with a much superior and better prepared force. Instead, Suvorov argues that the Soviet Union was poised to invade Nazi-controlled territories in July 1941.

Stalin planned to attack Nazi Germany from the rear in July 1941, only a few weeks after the date on which the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union took place. According to Suvorov, the Red Army had been already redeployed from a defensive to an offensive position. As described in Suvorov's books, Stalin had made no major defensive preparations. On the contrary, the Stalin line fortifications through Belarus-Ukraine were dismantled, and the new Molotov line was all but finished by the time of Nazi invasion.


From the classic "Red Symphony" document (time of writing, January 1938)

G. - Exactly. Have you thought of the practical plan of realization?

R. - I had had more than enough time for that at the Lubianka. I considered. So look: if there were difficulties in finding mutually shared points between us and all else took its normal course, then the problems comes down to again trying to establish that in which there is similarity between Hitler and Stalin.

G. - Yes, but admit that all this is problematical.

R. - But not insoluble, as you think. In reality problems are insoluble only when they include dialectical subjective contradictions; and even in that case we always consider possible and essential a synthesis, overcoming the "morally-impossible" of Christian metaphysicians.

G. - Again you begin to theorize.

R. - As the result of my intellecutal discipline - this is essential for me. People of a big culture prefer to approach the concrete through a generalization, and not the other way round. With Hitler and with Stalin one can find common ground, as, being very different people, they have the same roots; if Hitler is sentimental to a pathological degree, but Stalin is normal, yet both of them are egoists: neither one of them is an idealist, and for that reason both of them are bonapartists, i.e. classical Imperialists. And if just that is the position, then it is already not difficult to find common ground betveen them. Why not, if it proved possible between one Tsarina and one Prussian King ...

G. - Rakovsky, you are incorrigible ...

R. - You do not guess? If Poland was the point of union between Catherine and Frederick - the Tsarina of Russia and the King of Germany at that time, then why cannot Poland serve as a reason for the finding of common ground between Hitler and Stalin? In Poland the persons of Hitler and Stalin can coincide. and also the historical Tsarist Bolshevik and Nazi lines. Our line, "Their' line - also, as Poland is a Christian State and, what makes the matter even more complex, a Catholic one.

G. - And what follows from the fact of such a treble coincidence?

R. - If there is common ground then there is a possibility of agreement.

G. - Between Hitler and Stalin? ... Absurd! Impossible.

R. - In politics there are neither absurdities, nor the impossible.

G. - Let us imagine, as an hypothesis: Hitler and Stalin advance on Poland.

R. - Permit me to interrupt you; an attack can be called forth only by the following alternative: war or peace. You must admit it.

G. - Well, and so what?

R. - Do you consider that England and France, with their worse
armies and aviation, in comparison with Hitler's, can attack the united Hitler and Stalin?

G. - Yes, that seems to me to be very difficult ... unless America ...

R. - Let us leave the United States aside for the moment. Will you agree with me that as the result of the attack of Hitler and Stalin on Poland there can be no European war?

G. - You argue logically; it would seem impossible.

R. - In that case an attack or war would be useless. It would not call forth the mutual destruction of the bourgeois States: the Hitlerist threat to the USSR would continue in being after the division of Poland since theoretically both Germany and the USSR would have been strengthened to the same extent. In practice Hitler to a greater extent since the USSR does not need more land and raw materials for its strengthening, but Hitler does need them.

G. - This is a correct view ..., but I can see no other solution.

R. - No, there is a solution.

G. - Which?

R. - That the democracies should attack and not attack the aggressor.

G. - What are you saying, what hallucination! Simultaneously to attack and not to attack ... That is something absolutely impossible.

R. - You think so? Calm down ... Are there not two aggressors? Did we not agree that there will be no advance just because there are two? Well ... What prevents the attack on one of them?

G. - What do you want to say by that?

R. - Simply that the democracies will declare war only on one aggressor, and that will be Hitler.

G. - Yes, but that is an unfounded hypothesis.

R. - An hypothesis, but having a foundation. Consider: each State which will have to fight with a coalition of enemy States has as its main strategical objective to destroy them separately one after another. This rule is so well known that proofs are superfluous. So, agree with me that there are no obstacles to the creation of such conditions. I think that the question that Stalin will not consider himself aggrieved in case of an attack on Hitler is already settled. Is that not so? In addition geography imposes this attitude, and for that reason strategy also. However stupid France and England may be in preparing to fight simultaneously against two countries, one of which wants to preserve its neutrality, while the other, even being alone, represents for them a serious opponent, from where and from which side could they carry out an attack on the USSR? They have not got a common border; unless they were to advance over the Himalayas ... Yes, there remains the air front, but with what forces and from where could they invade Russia? In comparison with Hitler they are weaker in the air. All the arguments I have mentioned are no secret and are well known. As you see, all is simplified to a considerable extent.

G.- Yes, your arguments seem to be logical in the case if the conflict will be limited to four countries; but there are not four, but more, and neutrality is not a simple matter in a war on the given scale.

R. - Undoubtedly, but the possible participation of many countries does not change the power relationships. Weigh this in your mind and you will see how the balance will continue, even if others or even all European States come in. In addition, and this is very important, not one of those States, which will enter the war at the side of England and France will be able to deprive them of leadership; as a result the reasons which will prevent their attack on the USSR will retain their significance.


Outwardly everything seemed equitable, a part of Poland for Hitler and a part for Stalin. However, just one week after the signing of the Pact, Stalin played his first dirty trick. Hitler began the war against Poland, while Stalin stated that his troops were not yet ready. He could have told Ribbentrop that before the Pact was signed, but he did not do so. Hitler began the war and found himself on his own. The result? He, and he alone, was branded the perpetrator of the Second World War.


In the end, however, Poland, for whose liberty the West had gone to war, ended up with none at all. On the contrary, she was handed over to Stalin, along with the whole of Eastern Europe, including a part of Germany. Even so, there are some people in the West who continue to believe that the West won the Second World War.


History states [wrote Stalin] that when one country wants to go to war with another, even one which is not a neighbour, then it begins to seek frontiers across which it would be able to reach the frontiers of the countries it wishes to attack. (Pravda, 5 March 1936)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 10:01:45 AM by sandokhan »

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2015, 12:14:23 PM »

Oh! sweet mother of god, I'm out.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2015, 01:18:03 PM »
The date for Operation Thunderstorm (invasion of Germany) was set for July 6, 1941; it was only at the last moment that the Wehrmacht decided to strike back, knowing full well that a war on two fronts could not be won.

As we have seen from the Red Symphony document, the Western leaders wanted a war against Hitler, using Stalin; they did not understand that Stalin had a hidden plan of his own: to swiftly attack Europe in 1941 and take over the entire continent very fast.

At the news of the battle of Kursk, where the Germans and Soviets were annihilating each other, the leaders of the West must have been laughing their bellies off: Germany and the USSR should have been fighting standing back to back and not face to face (Germany to have the time to attack Britain, and the USSR to attack Japan and Asia).

Realizing this fact, Stalin began another set of secret operations in 1945: in less than ten years, to invade both Europe and Alaska, and from there Britain, Canada, and western part of the United States.

Stalin, however, did not understand one basic fact: that the secret societies which ruled the Vatican, London and New York could have taken him out at any time, no matter how many purges were going on in the former USSR.

I fully believe that if Stalin had not made this unfortunate remark to Churchill, he might have been given some five more years to live.

“How many divisions does the Pope of Rome have?” Stalin asked, suddenly interrupting Churchill’s line of reasoning.

The response from Pius XII was this:

"You can tell my son Joseph that he will meet my divisions in heaven”.

Stalin did not understand that once you mess with the Italians, something terrible will happen, and the Jesuits showed Stalin just what kind of divisions they had at their disposal: they took both Stalin and Beria out.


Let us turn our attention to a gun culture that works: Switzerland.

Switzerland trails behind only the U.S, Yemen and Serbia in the number of guns per capita; between 2.3 million and 4.5 million military and private firearms are estimated to be in circulation in a country of only 8 million people. Yet, despite the prevalence of guns, the violent-crime rate is low: government figures show about 0.5 gun homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. By comparison, the U.S rate in the same year was about 5 firearm killings per 100,000 people, according to a 2011 U.N. report.

One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation. Kids as young as 12 belong to gun groups in their local communities, where they learn sharpshooting. The Swiss Shooting Sports Association runs about 3,000 clubs and has 150,000 members, including a youth section. Many members keep their guns and ammunition at home, while others choose to leave them at the club. And yet, despite such easy access to pistols and rifles, “no members have ever used their guns for criminal purposes,” says Max Flueckiger, the association’s spokesperson.

“Social conditions are fundamental in deterring crime,” says Peter Squires, professor of criminology and public policy at the University of Brighton in Great Britain, who has studied gun violence in different countries and concluded that a “culture of support” rather than focus on individualism, can deter mass killings.

“If people have a responsible, disciplined and organized introduction into an activity like shooting, there will be less risk of gun violence,” he tells TIME.

That sense of social and civic responsibility is one of the reasons the Swiss have never allowed their guns to come under fire.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 01:24:46 PM by sandokhan »

Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2015, 05:47:59 PM »


i know you are wrong because of the Ultimate Red Truth File (1941).  this document is undeniable.  in it, stalin has a secret conversation with churchill and roosevelt in which he explains:

Dudes, I would seriously love to take down some fascists for my bros.  You know that.  But we got some issues over here tryin'a get our shit tight, nawmsayin?  Can't be stealin' on sucka emcees til we get that shit locked down for real.

that's straight out of stalin's mouth, and it's more recent, so it trumps whatever that advisor was talking about in your document.  stalin actually later addresses that interview in his secret meeting, as revealed in the red truth file (pp. 36-37):

S: What, that Rakovsky dude?  Shit, he's just a corner kid, doesn't know a damn thing.  We pump all the corner kids with disinfo in case the 5-0 start bangin' heads.
C: Nice, dude.  Nice.
S: Fuckin' SWICK is what it is, bro.  Pound it.
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Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2015, 06:35:59 PM »
You should go back to troll school for a refresher course.

Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2015, 07:31:51 PM »
Actually, garygreen should go back to junior high school: he doesn't know d*ck about science.

It isn't 'powered' by anything.  The core of a giant ball of gas doesn't have to burn fuel to be hot.  See: gas giants.  This is what I was getting at with the Jupiter example on the first page.  This is all perfectly consistent with how modern science describes all the gas giants. 

Jupiter's core is very hot.  Jupiter's surface is very cold.  Convection is happening in between. 


When you take a break from weed and baseball, you might want to read about Jupiter's anomalous IR radiation.


Deathride is the only one of the five that I wouldn't recommend reading.  The author's argument is that it's nothing short of a miracle that the Wehrmacht was defeated by the Red Army, that Hitler's strategic assessment of the Eastern Front was entirely rational, and that the war didn't begin to turn against Germany until the 6th Army's surrender at Stalingrad.  His argument would be compelling if it didn't omit the most salient argument against Barbarossa: logistics.  He focuses far too much on raw casualty figures and fails to recognize the complete inability of the Wehrmacht to sustain those operations in Soviet territory.  Operation Barbarossa makes a much, much more compelling argument that Barbarossa was always a total fantasy.

Operation Barbarossa was a consequence of Operation Thunderstorm, the subject of my previous messages: obviously you didn't know d*ck about this either.


I haven't done an IQ-test, and I do not think I want to.

My life has been lonely, but it is when with other people that I tend to feel at my loneliest. Part for that is to blame for me, as I tend to non-conform. More, if I do not agree with something I might refuse or try to get out of it.

You got it wrong. Non-conformity is not necessarily your problem. You are desperately trying to look much smarter than you actually are, and it doesn't work out at all.


Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2015, 10:30:10 PM »
of those three quotes, one of them is on an entirely different subject, and one is by an entirely different person.  the fact that i've been confused for thork is giving me some serious pause.  whoopsy, i thought that IQs quote came from thork, but i just realized that it's copypasta i posted in complete nonsense.  same difference, i guess.

thank you for the awesome revisionist history lesson, but what does any of this have to do with private firearm use?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 11:36:10 PM by garygreen »
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Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2015, 03:54:13 AM »
Which is why nearly all military studies consider the attack on Pearl Harbor to be one of the dumbest strategic moves ever committed by a modern nation.

They were kind of forced into doing it. Japan had few options left at that stage.

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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2015, 04:01:02 AM »
We kinda got off topic.
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Scripture, science, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

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Offline Rushy

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Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2015, 05:09:22 AM »
Look, these gun threads never go anywhere. You end up with a bunch of eurocucks claiming guns are bad and then some guy from Britain will come in and brag about their gun control, completely forgetting they live on an island. After that, the USA brigade quotes the second amendment and reminds everyone that repealing an amendment is borderline impossible. The end.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2015, 06:38:30 AM »
Look, these gun threads never go anywhere. You end up with a bunch of eurocucks claiming guns are bad and then some guy from Britain will come in and brag about their gun control, completely forgetting they live on an island. After that, the USA brigade quotes the second amendment and reminds everyone that repealing an amendment is borderline impossible. The end.
But if we didn't bitch about topics that go nowhere, we wouldn't exist as a forum.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2015, 01:33:12 PM »
Quote
After that, the USA brigade quotes the second amendment and reminds everyone that repealing an amendment is borderline impossible.

That shouldn't really matter in this discussion, though. If the question is 'are guns bad and should we get rid of them?' the fact that passing the law to do it would be difficult is irrelevant.

Similarly, in a discussion about whether it would be better to get rid of the monarchy or not, arguing that the majority of MPs would never vote to do so is an irrelevant distraction.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2015, 04:20:53 PM »
Look, these gun threads never go anywhere. You end up with a bunch of eurocucks claiming guns are bad and then some guy from Britain will come in and brag about their gun control, completely forgetting they live on an island. After that, the USA brigade quotes the second amendment and reminds everyone that repealing an amendment is borderline impossible. The end.

So all your 4,600 odd posts have turned you into scrooge!

We aren’t allowed to work ourselves into a mood of questionable moral superiority and you don’t want to get that red mist where the only possible out is to put on your dungarees and machine-gun Wall-mart? Your Pappy will be turnin’ in his grave, have yourself some moonshine boy.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2015, 07:59:44 PM »
Quote
After that, the USA brigade quotes the second amendment and reminds everyone that repealing an amendment is borderline impossible.

That shouldn't really matter in this discussion, though. If the question is 'are guns bad and should we get rid of them?' the fact that passing the law to do it would be difficult is irrelevant.

Similarly, in a discussion about whether it would be better to get rid of the monarchy or not, arguing that the majority of MPs would never vote to do so is an irrelevant distraction.

Why would quoting a document defining gun ownership as a basic human right not be part of the discussion about guns? It doesn't really matter if you or anyone else thinks guns are bad.

Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2015, 09:27:50 PM »
Quote
After that, the USA brigade quotes the second amendment and reminds everyone that repealing an amendment is borderline impossible.

That shouldn't really matter in this discussion, though. If the question is 'are guns bad and should we get rid of them?' the fact that passing the law to do it would be difficult is irrelevant.

Similarly, in a discussion about whether it would be better to get rid of the monarchy or not, arguing that the majority of MPs would never vote to do so is an irrelevant distraction.

Even if the 2nd amendment was repealed tomorrow, gun buybacks were enacted and heavy restrictions legislated, there are simply far too many weapons in the US to ever see any drastic improvement in gun deaths. As if it needs to be said, most gun violence is not performed by legal owners.

Gun legislation worked well for Australia because we only had very few weapons to begin with, and no 'right to bear arms' embedded in the national ego. People with SLR's and AR-15's thought "yeah maybe I don't need weapons like these" and happily handed them over to the government. That would never happen in the US.

I don't know what the best action is for the US, but it's not hard to see that strict regulation and buybacks are folly. The latest shooting itself was performed with legally obtained AR-15's wasn't it?

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: "Assault" weapons, for it or against it?
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2015, 12:13:27 AM »
Quote
After that, the USA brigade quotes the second amendment and reminds everyone that repealing an amendment is borderline impossible.

That shouldn't really matter in this discussion, though. If the question is 'are guns bad and should we get rid of them?' the fact that passing the law to do it would be difficult is irrelevant.

Similarly, in a discussion about whether it would be better to get rid of the monarchy or not, arguing that the majority of MPs would never vote to do so is an irrelevant distraction.

Why would quoting a document defining gun ownership as a basic human right not be part of the discussion about guns? It doesn't really matter if you or anyone else thinks guns are bad.

Because we're talking about whether tightening or repealing that amendment would be a good thing or not.

It's like trying to close down the discussion about drug legalisation by saying "well it doesn't matter whether you or anyone else thinks drugs are good. We have a law banning them."