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Offline lolwut?

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Acceptable Content in CN
« on: October 29, 2015, 06:30:39 PM »
Again, I received a warning and was auto muted for a post in CN.  This post happened to be a large, ASCII penis.  My post appeared just above another post which contained hundreds of n-words spammed over and over again where the actual physical size of that post approached the size of the penis. 

Why is an ascii penis less safe for work (and grounds for a warning) than hundreds of n-words and a huge swastika flag? 
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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2015, 06:38:09 PM »
For the simple reason that Daniel caused so much butthurt in Parsifal that it made him start a new site and allow posts which Daniel did not allow.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2015, 06:49:58 PM »
Words and ideologies are protected forms of freedom of speech. Pornography is not. You can post about niggers and Nazis to your heart's content. No porn, ASCII or otherwise.

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Offline lolwut?

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2015, 06:50:53 PM »
Words and ideologies are protected forms of freedom of speech. Pornography is not.
According to who/what?
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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2015, 06:55:44 PM »
Words and ideologies are protected forms of freedom of speech. Pornography is not. You can post about niggers and Nazis to your heart's content. No porn, ASCII or otherwise.

Actually, the discussion here is covering NSFW content, not freedom of speech laws.
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Offline Pongo

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2015, 07:11:14 PM »
Words and ideologies are protected forms of freedom of speech. Pornography is not.
According to who/what?

It's up to the moderator's discretion.  I know that's not satisfying, but paraphrasing the words of Justice Stewart, I cannot define porn, but I know it when I see it.  This implies a great deal of latitude for the moderator to decide what is and isn't acceptable and unfortunately there will never be a black and white line telling what is and isn't rule breaking. 

All we have to go by are the precedences set thus far.  Certain racial slurs, that I have no desire to repeat, have been deemed acceptable partly because they aren't considered racial slurs outside the United States.  Regardless, the precedence has been set.  Rushy set another with the warning from ASCII porn.  If it's not overturned by administration, we will likely continue with the practice of warning / banning for posting ASCII Porn.

If this is unacceptable for you, lolwut?, then may I recommend that you stop trying to push the limits of moderation?  It's not like you're posting innocuously and getting blindsided with warnings.  You are actively trying to provoke moderation and then complaining when you get a slap on the wrist.  You can play this game as long as you're willing to endure the slaps.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2015, 07:19:45 PM »
Pushing limits is exactly how rules are tested and improved, though. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an employer who finds content regarding superfluous use of Swastikas and racial slurs to be work safe, in America or otherwise.
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Offline Pongo

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2015, 07:31:04 PM »
I find it hard to believe that the user(s) in question are altruistically testing our rule structure in order to improve it.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2015, 07:46:22 PM »
I find it hard to believe that the user(s) in question are altruistically testing our rule structure in order to improve it.

Irrelevant.
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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2015, 08:15:50 PM »
I find it hard to believe that the user(s) in question are altruistically testing our rule structure in order to improve it.

Their intent doesn't matter. Their behavior leads to progress either way.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2015, 08:18:46 PM »
If by progress you mean a reaffirmation that the rules are fine they way they currently are.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2015, 08:35:00 PM »
If by progress you mean a reaffirmation that the rules are fine they way they currently are.

But the rules have been amended before... ??? ??? ???
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Offline Parsifal

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2015, 08:42:25 PM »
Personally, I don't have a problem with ASCII penes in CN, but in a prior incarnation of this discussion it was established that my standards for NSFWness are significantly more liberal than average. As such, I'm probably not the best person to make that call.

The main source of contention with regard to whether ASCII penes are considered NSFW is, as far as I can see, a matter of definition. Those arguing they should be treated the same as certain words or symbols are considering them to be text, while those favouring treatment along with photographs are considering them to be images. I contend that they are both, and that this issue therefore cannot be taken as a matter of consistency among text or images.

In that light, let's discard any arguments for consistency and instead consider ASCII art in terms of its potential for harm if it is viewed in a sensitive context. Personally, I think it's reasonable to expect people to avoid browsing CN in any situations where ASCII art is likely to cause trouble, given that such environments are somewhat uncommon and that we don't want to start banning things just because they offend someone in an office somewhere in Idaho. On the other hand, it is reasonable to take a firmer hand with regard to actual photographs of genitalia, because those are more widely regarded as taboo in the workplace.

In between those two extremes sits drawings. As in the thread I linked above, I still think drawings of nudity are perfectly acceptable in CN, but if most people disagree then I'm happy to swing the other way on that issue.
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Offline lolwut?

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2015, 09:03:59 PM »
Personally, I don't have a problem with ASCII penes in CN, but in a prior incarnation of this discussion it was established that my standards for NSFWness are significantly more liberal than average. As such, I'm probably not the best person to make that call.

The main source of contention with regard to whether ASCII penes are considered NSFW is, as far as I can see, a matter of definition. Those arguing they should be treated the same as certain words or symbols are considering them to be text, while those favouring treatment along with photographs are considering them to be images. I contend that they are both, and that this issue therefore cannot be taken as a matter of consistency among text or images.

In that light, let's discard any arguments for consistency and instead consider ASCII art in terms of its potential for harm if it is viewed in a sensitive context. Personally, I think it's reasonable to expect people to avoid browsing CN in any situations where ASCII art is likely to cause trouble, given that such environments are somewhat uncommon and that we don't want to start banning things just because they offend someone in an office somewhere in Idaho. On the other hand, it is reasonable to take a firmer hand with regard to actual photographs of genitalia, because those are more widely regarded as taboo in the workplace.

In between those two extremes sits drawings. As in the thread I linked above, I still think drawings of nudity are perfectly acceptable in CN, but if most people disagree then I'm happy to swing the other way on that issue.

God damn, finally some common sense!  I wonder if viewing a picture of a huge swastika on one's computer in Germany is considered NSFW...
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Acceptable Content in CN
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2015, 09:36:02 PM »
God damn, finally some common sense!  I wonder if viewing a picture of a huge swastika on one's computer in Germany is considered NSFW...
Given that the symbol is largely illegal there (and in many other European countries), the answer you're looking for is "yes". This is why we try to avoid adhering to the standards of any one nation.

Overall, I'm completely in agreement with Parsifal here, except perhaps when it comes to NSFW drawings. I think we should have some standard in place to stop people from posting tentacle hentai. I'd suggest that that would be just about as controversial as other types of porn.

I would also like to reiterate my view from the thread Parsifal linked: while we use the term "NSFW" when describing the content limitations, I really don't think we should try to actually adhere to workplace standards:

Anyway: Personally, I do not think we can reasonably adhere to any workplace standards, and I don't think we should try. A lot of the content on this site can easily be argued to be NSFW. Putting imagery aside for a moment, many discussion here touch on social and political issues, and we've always embraced an atmosphere of not suppressing people's views, even when they border on extremism. A fair amount of people could probably be fired based on their postings here.

I would suggest establishing an internal standard for what's allowable and what isn't. I think most would agree that we don't want FES outright turning into a porn and gore board, we already have the chans for that. However, we should do so only for the viewing pleasure of our members, and not to protect someone who chooses to browse FES while at work or school. People should then make their own judgement about whether or not they consider the forum to be safe for their workplace.

I also think that there's no reason for the standard to be uniform across all boards. It could be much more lenient in CN than the upper fora.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 09:51:19 PM by SexWarrior »
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