[Tom Bishop]

Are you aware that doctors no longer prescribe herbal medicines for ailments, despite many herbal concoctions being a known cure to many ailments for hundreds of years? Why is that?

1. Not regulated by the FDA
2. Lack of proven efficacy
3. Lack of rigorous clinical trials
4. Lack of precise dosage control
5. And yes... possibly lack of money to be made off it

Regardless of the reasons, it is not evidence that garlic cures cancer. It's barely even related. Your logic is bewildering... doctors avoid prescribing herbal remedies, therefore garlic cures cancer??

Herbal and natural medicines have been the primary mode of medicine in China for thousands of years, and Traditional Chinese Medicine is still the preferred choice when illness occurs. Its practitioners claim to have cured countless people. Is the entire medical profession in China lying? You are going to have to explain what is happening there.

Stop trying to shift the premise of your argument. No one is arguing that all herbal medicine is completely ineffective. Just because SOME herbal medicine is somewhat effective, doesn't prove garlic cures cancer.

That being said, traditional Chinese medicine is absolutely riddled with scams. Especially if it is marketed at foreigners.

If you agree that it is possible for herbal medicines to cure disease, then you open up the possibility of garlic curing cancer. I don't see what is so outrageous about the subject. There are a lot of people who claim that various plants and herbs cured their cancer.

The drug companies aren't going to spend $10 Million to put garlic through Phase 4 clinical trials for FDA approval because garlic can't be patented and sold for outrageous prices. How are they supposed to make that money back?

Water wasn't ever put through Phase 4 FDA approval for dehydration and dehydration related diseases. Are we to assume that water is a non-effective substance for dehydration? Is it so impossible to figure out how to use water to cure dehydration without a pharmacist to tell you what dosage to take?

Natural medicines can cure, and you cannot rely on FDA approval to tell you that. FDA approval is not needed to be a legitimate medicine. There is ample evidence of the potency of herbal medicines. There are thousands of years of human experiments which have created the current natural medicine fields.

[Lord Dave]

Why would millions of people do something for hundreds of years if no one ever received any kind of benefit from it?

Are you seriously using an ad populum?Also... burying the dead in monuments.  No benefit what so ever yet we still do it.
Living in harsh environments.

Are you aware that doctors no longer prescribe herbal medicines for ailments, despite many herbal concoctions being a known cure to many ailments for hundreds of years? Why is that?

1. Not regulated by the FDA
2. Lack of proven efficacy
3. Lack of rigorous clinical trials
4. Lack of precise dosage control
5. And yes... possibly lack of money to be made off it

Regardless of the reasons, it is not evidence that garlic cures cancer. It's barely even related. Your logic is bewildering... doctors avoid prescribing herbal remedies, therefore garlic cures cancer??

Herbal and natural medicines have been the primary mode of medicine in China for thousands of years, and Traditional Chinese Medicine is still the preferred choice when illness occurs. Its practitioners claim to have cured countless people. Is the entire medical profession in China lying? You are going to have to explain what is happening there.

Stop trying to shift the premise of your argument. No one is arguing that all herbal medicine is completely ineffective. Just because SOME herbal medicine is somewhat effective, doesn't prove garlic cures cancer.

That being said, traditional Chinese medicine is absolutely riddled with scams. Especially if it is marketed at foreigners.

If you agree that it is possible for herbal medicines to cure disease, then you open up the possibility of garlic curing cancer. I don't see what is so outrageous about the subject. There are a lot of people who claim that various plants and herbs cured their cancer.

The drug companies aren't going to spend $10 Million to put garlic through Phase 4 clinical trials for FDA approval because garlic can't be patented and sold for outrageous prices. How are they supposed to make that money back?

Water wasn't ever put through Phase 4 FDA approval for dehydration and dehydration related diseases. Are we to assume that water is an effectiveness substance?

Is it so impossible to figure out how to use water to cure dehydration if there are no large dosage control studies on the subject?

Natural medicines CAN cure, and you cannot rely on FDA approval to tell you that. Anyone who relies on FDA approval is pretty stupid to think that FDA approval is needed to be a legitimate medicine. There is ample evidence of the potency of herbal medicines. There are thousands of years of human experiments which have created the current natural medicine fields.

Then our course is clear.
Tom, you need to get cancer so we can cure you with garlic.

[Tom Bishop]

i completely agree.   curing cancer is trivial.  one merely needs to consult god, who has already provided everything we need for our survival.  your link proves that prayer cures cancer.

there are certain people in the world who will tell you that cancer is terrible and impossible to cure without spending money on herbs, vitamin regimens, and other 'nautral' remedies they sell.  i am here to tell you that this is false.  one does not need to consult an industry which profiteers off the backs of the dying.

Prayer probably does help people with Cancer to some degree. But you really need a reality check if you think that is all they do at Catholic hospitals.

[TotesNotReptilian]

If you agree that it is possible for herbal medicines to cure disease, then you open up the possibility of garlic curing cancer.

Of course it's possible. That doesn't mean it is true, or even likely. It is also possible that storing ants in your bellybutton cures baldness, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Natural medicines CAN cure, and you cannot rely on FDA approval to tell you that.

Great. We agree on this. How does this prove that garlic, specifically, cures cancer?

[Tom Bishop]

Why would millions of people do something for hundreds of years if no one ever received any kind of benefit from it?

Are you seriously using an ad populum?Also... burying the dead in monuments.  No benefit what so ever yet we still do it.
Living in harsh environments.

First off, people do receive benefit from burying their dead in monuments. Your counterargument is weak.

Secondly, It's not an ad populum argument. The argument is not based on nothing more than belief. I am referencing the thousands of years of human experiments which have molded the current natural medicine fields. It is an empirical argument that natural medicines have cured the things they claim to cure.

[Tom Bishop]

If you agree that it is possible for herbal medicines to cure disease, then you open up the possibility of garlic curing cancer.

Of course it's possible. That doesn't mean it is true, or even likely. It is also possible that storing ants in your bellybutton cures baldness, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it

Your examples are pretty bad. There aren't many people who claim that bellybutton ants cure baldness, but there are a whole lot of people who claim that cancer can be and has been cured with plants like garlic.

Are you going to completely ignore evidence?

[Lord Dave]

Why would millions of people do something for hundreds of years if no one ever received any kind of benefit from it?

Are you seriously using an ad populum?Also... burying the dead in monuments.  No benefit what so ever yet we still do it.
Living in harsh environments.

First off, people do receive benefit from burying their dead in monuments. Your counterargument is completely laughable.

And that benefit is?

Secondly, It's not an ad populum argument. The argument is not based on nothing more than belief. I am referencing the thousands of years of human experiments which have molded the current natural medicine fields. It is an empirical argument that natural medicines have cured the things they claim to cure.

The thousands of years of people praying for aid from God and getting nothing?

[Tom Bishop]

And that benefit is?

What am I, an elementary school teacher? You can figure out the benefits of burial monuments for yourself.

The thousands of years of people praying for aid from God and getting nothing?

I'm fairly certain that religious people don't go around claiming that God will give you anything you wish for. Are you just making stuff up now?

[TotesNotReptilian]

If you agree that it is possible for herbal medicines to cure disease, then you open up the possibility of garlic curing cancer.

Of course it's possible. That doesn't mean it is true, or even likely. It is also possible that storing ants in your bellybutton cures baldness, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it

Your examples are pretty bad. There aren't many people who claim that bellybutton ants cure baldness, but there are a whole lot of people who claim that cancer can be and has been cured with plants like garlic.

So... your proof that garlic cures cancer is "a whole lot of people claim that cancer can be cured with plants like garlic?" Gee golly, you sure have convinced me. Your argument is airtight!

Are you completely ignorant to the concept of evidence?

I am genuinely curious as to what you think the definition of "evidence" is.

[garygreen]

Prayer probably does help people with Cancer to some degree.

if some prayer will kill cancer, then lots of prayer will cure cancer. it's not really such a difficult leap. you might as well tell me it's only possible to get a little wet from my refrigerator's water dispenser.

there are a lot of people who claim that various psalms and prayers cured their cancer.

But you really need a reality check if you think that is all they do at Catholic hospitals.

it's a shame that it isn't, actually: if i were an oncologist practicing traditional oncology 60% of my patients would be dead within 5 years.

[Tom Bishop]

So... your proof that garlic cures cancer is "a whole lot of people claim that cancer can be cured with plants like garlic?" Gee golly, you sure have convinced me. Your argument is airtight!

There are people who claim to have been cured by garlic, and there are people who have claimed to have been cured by peppers. Those testimonials are evidence that cancer is treatable by these things.

if some prayer will kill cancer, then lots of prayer will cure cancer. it's not really such a difficult leap. you might as well tell me it's only possible to get a little wet from my refrigerator's water dispenser.

there are a lot of people who claim that various psalms and prayers cured their cancer.

This is a false equivalence. There are people who claim that by using garlic alone cured their incurable cancer, but almost no one claims that their incurable cancers were cured with prayer alone. The people who claim that prayer cured their cancer also admit that they were taking other things too.

'I Believed God Would Heal Me, and He Did,' Says Man Cured of 'Inoperable Cancer'

Hart's oncologist, Tammy Young, told the Town Talk, that while she certainly believed the Tarceva was effective in curing his cancer, prayer definitely played a role in the outcome.

"He has a lung cancer that has a mutation that is very responsive to Tarceva," Young said. "He began taking Tarceva and took it for a few months and had a very good response from the treatment…"Most patients don't have as spectacular a response as Hal has had. And, absolutely, the power of prayer is an important part of this picture."

Prayer certainly seems to help, as the Oncologist above herself asserts. But the fact that Catholic hospitals do not use prayer alone to treat cancer should be enough evidence that it is not the recommended religious treatment for that ailment.

[TotesNotReptilian]

So... your proof that garlic cures cancer is "a whole lot of people claim that cancer can be cured with plants like garlic?" Gee golly, you sure have convinced me. Your argument is airtight!

There are people who claim to have been cured by garlic, and there are people who have claimed to have been cured by peppers. Those testimonials are evidence that cancer is treatable by these things.

Sure, but it's extremely weak, self-reported, anecdotal evidence. People claim all sorts of stuff cured their cancer. I just googled the first 6 foods that popped into my head: carrots, lettuce, broccoli, coffee, chocolate, peanuts. Every single one had multiple websites that claimed they cure/prevent/fight cancer.

Self-reported cures are extremely susceptible to all sorts of bias and errors.

[Tom Bishop]

So... your proof that garlic cures cancer is "a whole lot of people claim that cancer can be cured with plants like garlic?" Gee golly, you sure have convinced me. Your argument is airtight!

There are people who claim to have been cured by garlic, and there are people who have claimed to have been cured by peppers. Those testimonials are evidence that cancer is treatable by these things.

Sure, but it's extremely weak, self-reported, anecdotal evidence. People claim all sorts of stuff cured their cancer. I just googled the first 6 foods that popped into my head: carrots, lettuce, broccoli, coffee, chocolate, peanuts. Every single one had multiple websites that claimed they cure/prevent/fight cancer.

Self-reported cures are extremely susceptible to all sorts of bias and errors.

When a woman details how she cured her Stage 4 Cancer with "carrot juice, nothing else" that is pretty good evidence that carrot juice cures cancer. Stage 4 Cancer is the stage of cancer which is untreatable and death is certain. Doctors tell you to go home and die at that stage -- you are untreatable.

There is no other explanation for what could of cured that woman's cancer; except that there was something in the 5 pounds of carrot juice she was drinking a day that exhibited cancer fighting properties. Many other people have similar stories of carrot juice curing cancers and various other diseases. It makes sense as well; as carrots are a root vegetable which evolved in an environment not too dissimilar to garlic, and which must contend with a wide host of funguses and parasites, constantly fighting off diseases , including cancer, within itself. It follows that if you put those beneficial substances into the human body, which has evolved in symbiosis with root vegetables, the body will use those substances to fight its own diseases.

If you are claiming that this story and the many stories like it are untrue, then that seems delusional. There is really no other explanation for how this woman and others survived, unless you choose to accuse all of these people as being liars.

[Woody]

So... your proof that garlic cures cancer is "a whole lot of people claim that cancer can be cured with plants like garlic?" Gee golly, you sure have convinced me. Your argument is airtight!

There are people who claim to have been cured by garlic, and there are people who have claimed to have been cured by peppers. Those testimonials are evidence that cancer is treatable by these things.

Sure, but it's extremely weak, self-reported, anecdotal evidence. People claim all sorts of stuff cured their cancer. I just googled the first 6 foods that popped into my head: carrots, lettuce, broccoli, coffee, chocolate, peanuts. Every single one had multiple websites that claimed they cure/prevent/fight cancer.

Self-reported cures are extremely susceptible to all sorts of bias and errors.

When a woman details how she cured her Stage 4 Cancer with "carrot juice, nothing else" that is pretty good evidence that carrot juice cures cancer. Stage 4 Cancer is the stage of cancer which is untreatable and death is certain. Doctors tell you to go home and die at that stage -- you are untreatable.

There is no other explanation for what could of cured that woman's cancer; except that there was something in the 5 pounds of carrot juice she was drinking  day that exhibited cancer fighting properties. Many other people have similar stories of carrot juice curing cancers and various other diseases. It makes sense as well; as carrots are a root vegetable which evolved in an environment not too dissimilar to garlic, and which must contend with a wide host of funguses and parasites, constantly fighting off diseases , including cancer, within itself. It follows that if you put those beneficial substances into the human body, which has evolved in symbiosis with root vegetables, the body will use those substances to fight its own diseases.

If you are claiming that this story and the many stories like it are untrue, you must be delusional. There is really no other explanation for how this woman and others survived, unless you choose to accuse all of these people as being liars.

This one died from cancer:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3173212/Newlywed-shuns-chemotherapy-CARROTS-vows-beat-cancer-alternative-therapies-trying-baby-doctors-warn-s-no-evidence-work.html

Is that evidence it does not work?

Are you going to ignore the person in the first link diagnosed himself with stage 4 cancer?  Not only that he used a method that would not detect the type of cancer he claims to have had.

So is it your belief all doctors and researchers involved with researching a cure are evil and hiding the truth?

The problem with that logic is you are able to find stuff supporting garlic can reduce growth or kill cancer from those people.  They did not sweep it under the rug trying to hide it from the masses.  That is why you can find the results and conclusions using an internet search.

[garygreen]

This is a false equivalence. There are people who claim that by using garlic alone cured their incurable cancer, but almost no one claims that their incurable cancers were cured with prayer alone. The people who claim that prayer cured their cancer also admit that they were taking other things too.

Prayer certainly seems to help, as the Oncologist above herself asserts. But the fact that Catholic hospitals do not use prayer alone to treat cancer should be enough evidence that it is not the recommended religious treatment for that ailment.

what do i care what methods traditional oncologists use to kill their patients?  again, if a little prayer can fight cancer, why can't a lot of prayer cure cancer?

a simple google search shows that there has been a lot of research showing that prayer alone kills cancer:

http://www1.cbn.com/700club/wayne-higgins-cry-cured-cancer
https://www.tgm.org/HealedFromCancerPM.html
http://mswm.org/miracles.alook.htm
http://mswm.org/miracle_healing_testimony_andrewkakepetum.htm
https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Healed%20of%20Cancer%20-%20Osteen.pdf
http://www.alanames.org/en/testimonies.htm
http://healingandrevival.com/testimonies/?p=367

when people detail how they cured their stage 4 cancer with "prayer, nothing else" that is pretty good evidence that prayer cures cancer.  if you are claiming that this story and the many stories like it are untrue, you must be delusional.  there is really no other explanation for how they survived, unless you choose to accuse all of these people as being liars.

[Tom Bishop]

This one died from cancer:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3173212/Newlywed-shuns-chemotherapy-CARROTS-vows-beat-cancer-alternative-therapies-trying-baby-doctors-warn-s-no-evidence-work.html

Is that evidence it does not work?

Where does it say that she died from cancer?

Are you going to ignore the person in the first link diagnosed himself with stage 4 cancer?  Not only that he used a method that would not detect the type of cancer he claims to have had.

There are plenty of other testimonials on the website, from people who were diagnosed with cancer via biopsy.

So is it your belief all doctors and researchers involved with researching a cure are evil and hiding the truth?

Researchers do study natural substances and show that they have cancer fighting effects. There are many university studies on the effect natural substances have on cancers. Its the drug companies who refuse to sponsor them for Phase 3-4 Clinical Trials.

The problem with that logic is you are able to find stuff supporting garlic can reduce growth or kill cancer from those people.  They did not sweep it under the rug trying to hide it from the masses.  That is why you can find the results and conclusions using an internet search.

The drug companies don't control what gets posted on the internet.

[TotesNotReptilian]

Are you going to ignore the person in the first link diagnosed himself with stage 4 cancer?  Not only that he used a method that would not detect the type of cancer he claims to have had.

There are plenty of other testimonials on the website, from people who were diagnosed with cancer via biopsy.

Self-reported testimonials are subject to selection bias, and are almost useless for identifying a causative link among multiple variables. It has nothing to do with the honesty of the people reporting the results. It simply isn't possible to separate out all the confounding variables with such a small sample size, for something as complicated as cancer.

So is it your belief all doctors and researchers involved with researching a cure are evil and hiding the truth?

Researchers do study natural substances and show that they have cancer fighting effects. There are many university studies on the effect natural substances have on cancers. Its the drug companies who refuse to sponsor them for Phase 4 Clinical Trials.

Screw phase 4 trials. How about at least phase 2? Or even phase 1?

Before you can claim that garlic cures cancer, you should be able to answer most of these questions:

1. How many people have been cured by garlic?
2. How many have tried to use garlic as a cure, and failed?
3. What is the breakdown by dosage?
4. What is the breakdown by cancer type and stage?
5. Based on these results, how effective is garlic compared to other treatment options (chemo, radiation, etc.)?

[Tom Bishop]

a simple google search shows that there has been a lot of research showing that prayer alone kills cancer:

http://www1.cbn.com/700club/wayne-higgins-cry-cured-cancer
https://www.tgm.org/HealedFromCancerPM.html
http://mswm.org/miracles.alook.htm
http://mswm.org/miracle_healing_testimony_andrewkakepetum.htm
https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Healed%20of%20Cancer%20-%20Osteen.pdf
http://www.alanames.org/en/testimonies.htm
http://healingandrevival.com/testimonies/?p=367

when people detail how they cured their stage 4 cancer with "prayer, nothing else" that is pretty good evidence that prayer cures cancer.  if you are claiming that this story and the many stories like it are untrue, you must be delusional.  there is really no other explanation for how they survived, unless you choose to accuse all of these people as being liars.

Who is to say it's impossible to treat cancer with prayer? It's probably not the most reliable method, but there are countless studies of the placebo effect; which occurs through an unknown mechanism. Simply believing that you will be cured actually cures the ailment.

Dr. Mercola seems to believe that there have been cases of cancer remission via placebo effect:

It is also not unusual for people to experience spontaneous remissions from cancer and other diseases simply because they have had a profound change in their beliefs or outlook on life.

The mechanism is not at all understood, but studies have shown that the brain is directly wired to the immune system, and that happier people have a stronger immune system:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-happiness-boosts-the-immune-system/

studies during the 1980s and early 1990s revealed that the brain is directly wired to the immune system — portions of the nervous system connect with immune-related organs such as the thymus and bone marrow, and immune cells have receptors for neurotransmitters, suggesting that there is crosstalk.

A bad chemistry of the brain may somehow be inhibiting the functioning of the immune system.

The placebo effect is very real. It's probably not easy to achieve, and probably requires excellent nutrition, but I believe that there have been people who have cured their own chronic illnesses through enlightenment. Anyone with an ongoing chronic illness knows that the pain seems to go away and the symptoms seem to subside when they are in a jovial and happy mood. From the Buddhist perspective, the mind is the creator of sickness and health. If you have a healthy mind, you will have a healthy body.

Have you never considered that these alternative approaches to health have some truth to it and the world isn't full of liars?

[Tom Bishop]

Self-reported testimonials are subject to selection bias, and are almost useless for identifying a causative link among multiple variables. It has nothing to do with the honesty of the people reporting the results. It simply isn't possible to separate out all the confounding variables with such a small sample size, for something as complicated as cancer.

There is nothing complicated about cancer. Cancer is the body's last line of defense of a compromised immune system.

Screw phase 4 trials. How about at least phase 2? Or even phase 1?

Before you can claim that garlic cures cancer, you should be able to answer most of these questions:

1. How many people have been cured by garlic?
2. How many have tried to use garlic as a cure, and failed?
3. What is the breakdown by dosage?
4. What is the breakdown by cancer type and stage?
5. Based on these results, how effective is garlic compared to other treatment options (chemo, radiation, etc.)?

We don't have the support of the medical establishment to study such things on a large scale. It takes a lot of money.

Carefully compiled statistics are not really needed before trying a natural treatment, since nothing is dangerous. American naturopathic doctors typically operate experimentally, and have a lot of leeway to try many things, since the medicines used are not at all harmful to the body. It became tribal knowledge from experiment to experience that certain herbs are good for certain ailments.

Traditional Chinese Medicine does have the support of the medical establishment in China, however, and Chinese Medical Journals are replete with such statistics. They are available if someone knowledgeable in Chinese were inclined to look for them. Traditional Chinese Medicine is a bit more structured, and visiting a Traditional Chinese Medicine doctor is a wise choice when faced with a serious ailment.

[Woody]

This one died from cancer:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3173212/Newlywed-shuns-chemotherapy-CARROTS-vows-beat-cancer-alternative-therapies-trying-baby-doctors-warn-s-no-evidence-work.html

Is that evidence it does not work?

Where does it say that she died from cancer?

So is it your belief all doctors and researchers involved with researching a cure are evil and hiding the truth?

The drug companies don't control what gets posted on the internet.

Search her name, sometimes it is easy to find the information sometimes it is not.  This time it was easy.  Just add "death" after her name.  I would also try that every time you see someone saying they have refused treatment. Not the ones after they claim they cured their cancer.

I did not simply dismiss claims about curing cancer with home remedies. I went beyond of just accepting what was being written. My father had cancer and I can tell you garlic, carrots and what ever else being pushed as natural cures did not work.  I spent a lot of time and effort researching and learning about cancer.  End result is he got treatment and died 18 years later due to heart failure.

If you or a loved one ever gets cancer I highly suggest you do not just push garlic or carrots.  Really review and research the people making the claims they have a cure.  At best many are honest and misguided.  At worst some know exactly what they are doing and selling books.  I have even seen one with a hotline that charged $75 an hour.

I have a sister-in-law that writes false testimonials for things.  Her reasoning is she is fighting the pharmaceutical companies and it is justified.  She believes she is right, so believes what she doing is right. I do not agree and she does not care for me much since I tell her I do not.

I can use you as an example of this behavior with the Bishop Experiment. Wrong distance which was finally fixed, the amazing telescope allowing you to see incredible detail at 23 miles, that telescope not being affected by disturbances in the atmosphere, claiming you could see that beach with the naked eye.  I guess the last one could be true depending on how you want to define,"seeing the beach". If seeing the higher ground behind the beach is seeing the beach then I guess it is alright.

TL:DR

Just research the people making the claims by going beyond only reading what they wrote.