[Rama Set]

What is the definition of work? Is it lighting a fire? Yes. Does posting here do that? No. Could it be called writing? Perhaps. But is writing the same work it was in the Bronze Age? No. I said I was a traditional Jew of Orthodox tendencies. I did not say I was strictly Orthodox. You are going to have to wake up earlier in the morning if you hope to win any pilpul arguments with me.

Halacha is pretty clear about using a computer on Shabbat.

So, don't talk about, I quote you: "insist(ing) on obedience to Halacha" if you don't obey it yourself.

There are many more mitzvots/commandments you don't keep. You know that!
You are a hypocrite!

Don't worry Tom, he also cherry picks when it is important to interpret the Torah literally and when it is not with no clear standard either. Hypocrisy is where the mind of Yaakov lives.

[Tom]

What is the definition of work? Is it lighting a fire? Yes. Does posting here do that? No. Could it be called writing? Perhaps. But is writing the same work it was in the Bronze Age? No. I said I was a traditional Jew of Orthodox tendencies. I did not say I was strictly Orthodox. You are going to have to wake up earlier in the morning if you hope to win any pilpul arguments with me.

Halacha is pretty clear about using a computer on Shabbat.

So, don't talk about, I quote you: "insist(ing) on obedience to Halacha" if you don't obey it yourself.

There are many more mitzvots/commandments you don't keep. You know that!
You are a hypocrite!

Don't worry Tom, he also cherry picks when it is important to interpret the Torah literally and when it is not with no clear standard either. Hypocrisy is where the mind of Yaakov lives.

Exactly, he is just unlucky that someone here knows a lot about Judaism.

His behaviour is strange, as (real) Jewish people don't exhibit their Jewishness, let alone proselyte their religion.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Halacha can be, and has been, interpreted, and reinterpreted, many times over the 3800 years of our existence. What does it say now? What will it say later? What do I do now? What will I do later?

Remember, Judaism is a ladder of observances. No one starts from nothing and goes to complete obedience in a day. That is not the point. You don't know my personal history. Yes, my parents are Jews. But haven't you ever wondered why my wife is not?

Think about it? I realise you may not be that bright, but give it some thought.

Consider the following narrative. My parents were completely and totally non-Observant. In fact, the first experience I had with religion was Roman Catholicism. Even though I am an ethnic Jew, the first time I worshipped was as a Catholic, because my friends were Catholic (given that they were all Mexicans in Southern California, this shouldn't surprise you). I grew up in a town with no synagogue, with maybe 9 Jews in the entire population. And my family being part of the nine were completely non-Observant.

When I was 19 I became Church of England Episcopal. In fact, I nearly became a monk and priest. All this in spite of the fact that I am an ethnic Jew. My father's Hebrew name is indeed Abraham. But he is completely non-Observant. So is my mother. They at least had Hebrew names. Hers is Rut. But they have secular names that they have always used, and they didn't even bother to give us kids Hebrew names.

It wasn't until 11 years ago that I finally found the Faith of my Fathers. I mean, I always knew I was an ethnic Jew, but I never explored that part of my background. After all, how could I, growing up with no experience of it? I lived a completely Gentile life.

Did I convert to Judaism? No. I didn't have to in the formal sense. In the informal sense, I might as well have. Why do you think, that although my knowledge of theology is excellent, my knowledge of Hebrew is poor. Take a good guess, Brilliance. If you had any brains, you would have figured some of this out.

So don't sit there and judge me. I found my way to the Faith of my Fathers and embraced it. You, on the other hand rejected what was yours by inheritance. You are a disgrace to your people, and yes, you should be killed outright for what you have done. So, you don't like me, or approve? That's your problem. I don't believe in hell (most Jews don't, as you may or may not know), but, you can go there, just for being obnoxious.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Exactly, he is just unlucky that someone here knows a lot about Judaism.

His behaviour is strange, as (real) Jewish people don't exhibit their Jewishness, let alone proselyte their religion.

Except I don't proselyte my Faith, I merely explain it. And you, my friend, know nothing about Judaism. You are an arrogant pig, but you know nothing at all.

[beardo]

Do not kill.

But stoning is cool, apparently.

[Tom]

Halacha can be, and has been, interpreted, and reinterpreted, many times over the 3800 years of our existence. What does it say now? What will it say later? What do I do now? What will I do later?

Remember, Judaism is a ladder of observances. No one starts from nothing and goes to complete obedience in a day. That is not the point. You don't know my personal history. Yes, my parents are Jews. But haven't you ever wondered why my wife is not?

Think about it? I realise you may not be that bright, but give it some thought.

Consider the following narrative. My parents were completely and totally non-Observant. In fact, the first experience I had with religion was Roman Catholicism. Even though I am an ethnic Jew, the first time I worshipped was as a Catholic, because my friends were Catholic (given that they were all Mexicans in Southern California, this shouldn't surprise you). I grew up in a town with no synagogue, with maybe 9 Jews in the entire population. And my family being part of the nine were completely non-Observant.

When I was 19 I became Church of England Episcopal. In fact, I nearly became a monk and priest. All this in spite of the fact that I am an ethnic Jew. My father's Hebrew name is indeed Abraham. But he is completely non-Observant. So is my mother. They at least had Hebrew names. Hers is Rut. But they have secular names that they have always used, and they didn't even bother to give us kids Hebrew names.

It wasn't until 11 years ago that I finally found the Faith of my Fathers. I mean, I always knew I was an ethnic Jew, but I never explored that part of my background. After all, how could I, growing up with no experience of it? I lived a completely Gentile life.

Did I convert to Judaism? No. I didn't have to in the formal sense. In the informal sense, I might as well have. Why do you think, that although my knowledge of theology is excellent, my knowledge of Hebrew is poor. Take a good guess, Brilliance. If you had any brains, you would have figured some of this out.

So don't sit there and judge me. I found my way to the Faith of my Fathers and embraced it. You, on the other hand rejected what was yours by inheritance. You are a disgrace to your people, and yes, you should be killed outright for what you have done. So, you don't like me, or approve? That's your problem. I don't believe in hell (most Jews don't, as you may or may not know), but, you can go there, just for being obnoxious.

WHY CAN YOU NOT HAVE ONE ARGUMENT WITHOUT INSULTING SOMEONE?

EVEN IF YOU ARE JEWISH, YOU ARE A DISGRACE!!!

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

You call me a hypocrite, and do not expect a response? Pot, meet Kettle.

[Tom]

You are a hypocrite. You insist on obeying Halacha and in the next post you say that you are obeying it gradually.

Meaning? You are not obeying Halacha. If you keep insisting that every Jew has to obey Halacha (your version???), you are condemning yourself or a hypocrite.

The seven Noachidic laws are fictions as well, so stop condemning other people, you hypocrite!

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

You are a hypocrite. You insist on obeying Halacha and in the next post you say that you are obeying it gradually.

Meaning? You are not obeying Halacha. If you keep insisting that every Jew has to obey Halacha (your version???), you are condemning yourself or a hypocrite.

The seven Noachidic laws are fictions as well, so stop condemning other people, you hypocrite!

Find me, in the Torah, any reference to the use of computers on Shabbat. I can find, with the exception  of establishing courts of justice, every one of the seven Noahide laws in Torah. And the Seventh, establishing courts of justice, is evident as being necessary to enforce the others. I insist that every Jew attempt to do their best. If that is being done, then you will get no judgement from me. But you should be killed outright for denying your faith altogether.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

My wife needs the computer. TTYL.

[Tom]

You are a hypocrite. You insist on obeying Halacha and in the next post you say that you are obeying it gradually.

Meaning? You are not obeying Halacha. If you keep insisting that every Jew has to obey Halacha (your version???), you are condemning yourself or a hypocrite.

The seven Noachidic laws are fictions as well, so stop condemning other people, you hypocrite!

Find me, in the Torah, any reference to the use of computers on Shabbat. I can find, with the exception  of establishing courts of justice, every one of the seven Noahide laws in Torah. And the Seventh, establishing courts of justice, is evident as being necessary to enforce the others. I insist that every Jew attempt to do their best. If that is being done, then you will get no judgement from me. But you should be killed outright for denying your faith altogether.

There has never been a Noah nor an Ark and there are no Noachidic Laws, even not in the Torah. It is fiction!

Concerning the Halacha of the Shabbat, see http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/95907/jewish/The-Shabbat-Laws.htm

Now you know, don't do it again!

More mitzvots you want to discuss?

Do you wear peyot and tzitzit?
Do you keep kosher with separate kitchens?
Do you touch your wife while she is in her period?

Other ones you would like to discuss?

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments.htm

Don't forget number 122, 125 and 162. And of course number 454!

Good Luck!

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Of course I wear fringes. I do not trim the beard, although I don't wear peyot. The cutting the corners of the beard has been interpreted at least four different ways that I am aware of. The Torah itself states not to physically touch your wife during her monthly. Because of our increased understanding of medical science, many Jews, even among the more Traditional, have gone to interpreting that as not having sex with her. Understanding this as a reinterpretation, nevertheless, it is still deemed as appropriate.

Regarding kashrus, as I am unable to obtain kosher meat in my city, there is certainly no need to keep separate kitchens.

Again, I am ascending the ladder of obedience. You have descended the ladder to atheism. While I laud any Jew who starts at nothing, as I did, and works his way up, you should be killed outright.

Remember too that I live in a city that is not exactly conducive to Jewish living. If I lived in a Jewish neighbourhood in New York, where I could get kosher meat, of course I would keep kashrus laws to their utmost degree. You can't do that here. Judaism has ALWAYS made clear that what you are unable to do, you are not required to do. Evidently, for someone who supposedly knows a lot about Judaism, you actually know very little. I am uncertain whether your lack of knowledge comes from a lack of intellect or willful failure to comprehend.

And, much as there are some things I respect about Chabad, I am NOT a Chabadnik, thank you very much. In fact, I am not even Hasidic. So quoting hasidim won't get you far with me. It only makes you look more foolish than I already perceive you to be. I have made it clear that I am Traditional, without being strictly Orthodox. 'Nuff said, I should think.

EDIT: Message rephrased in the interests of not being insulting.

EDIT: Whether there was an Ark or a Noah is beside the point. The Noahide Laws are in the Torah. They apply to all of mankind. Certainly the first 11 chapters of Genesis may be legendary. But that is not the point. To be honest, I am not sure where I stand on those chapters, as they can be interpreted in many ways, and have been in the last 3800 years. But the Laws coming from them are still valid, and the Noahide Laws still hold. Grow up. Act your age, rather than like a child who can't get everything it wants, and insists on being a spoiled infant. That is not an insult. Your crying rebellion against G-d is getting you nowhere. He is not noticing or caring. All you are succeeding in doing is making a fool of yourself.

[Tom]

Of course I wear fringes. I do not trim the beard, although I don't wear peyot. The cutting the corners of the beard has been interpreted at least four different ways that I am aware of. The Torah itself states not to physically touch your wife during her monthly. Because of our increased understanding of medical science, many Jews, even among the more Traditional, have gone to interpreting that as not having sex with her. Understanding this as a reinterpretation, nevertheless, it is still deemed as appropriate.

Regarding kashrus, as I am unable to obtain kosher meat in my city, there is certainly no need to keep separate kitchens.

Again, I am ascending the ladder of obedience. You have descended the ladder to atheism. While I laud any Jew who starts at nothing, as I did, and works his way up, you should be killed outright.

Remember too that I live in a city that is not exactly conducive to Jewish living. If I lived in a Jewish neighbourhood in New York, where I could get kosher meat, of course I would keep kashrus laws to their utmost degree. You can't do that here. Judaism has ALWAYS made clear that what you are unable to do, you are not required to do. Evidently, for someone who supposedly knows a lot about Judaism, you actually know very little. I am uncertain whether your lack of knowledge comes from a lack of intellect or willful failure to comprehend.

And, much as there are some things I respect about Chabad, I am NOT a Chabadnik, thank you very much. In fact, I am not even Hasidic. So quoting hasidim won't get you far with me. It only makes you look more foolish than I already perceive you to be. I have made it clear that I am Traditional, without being strictly Orthodox. 'Nuff said, I should think.

EDIT: Message rephrased in the interests of not being insulting.

All your arguments are about insulting the other person and accusing him that he knows little and is stupid.

What is wrong with you?

The halacha is very clear, chabad or some other orthodox cult. You can discuss here if you can use a computer/internet on Shabbat:

http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8968/is-using-the-internet-on-shabbat-against-melachos


The oral tradition is as important as the written one. Read your talmuds and commentaries!

You are using excuses for not keeping the mitzvots properly (halachically). You are condemning yourself and are a hypocrite.

I really don't care. Do what you like. It's just ridiculous that you are condemning other people for doing something while you yourself are very selective about what to do and what not.

Do what you want and leave the rest of humanity alone!

[Pongo]

Understanding this as a reinterpretation, nevertheless, it is still deemed as appropriate.

What else is reinterpretable? Who decides what can and cannot be reinterpreted?

[Rushy]

This is getting ridiculous. If you guys are going to have long winded arguments about Judaism then relegate them to the thread in which questions about your Jewishness are to be discussed.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Understanding this as a reinterpretation, nevertheless, it is still deemed as appropriate.

What else is reinterpretable? Who decides what can and cannot be reinterpreted?

Fair question. To be honest, its up to the individual Jew. My personal practice is to not judge another practicing Jew. As disgusted as I am with people like Tom, who have rejected Judaism, and in my opinion, should be killed outright, I have a strict practice of not judging another Jew's practice of his Faith. I admit, when it comes to EXTREMELY Liberal Judaism, that practice slips a bit, as I find that form of the Faith to be rather distasteful. But personally, I can take just about anything, from Chabad (which most non-Jews would consider ultra-Orthodox) to Classical Reform (which to a Non-Jew looks almost like Lutheranism without Jesus) and consider it respectable. I may not agree with it, but I can respect it as at least an attempt at trying to be Jewish. It is the Jew who rejects his Faith, like Tom, that just flat pisses me off, and to be honest, makes me want to rip his throat out.

He has abandoned and disgraced his people. In his own way, he is worse than Hitler, because he would give Hitler a posthumous victory, by destroying Judaism from within. The self-hating Jew, the Jew who hates Judaism, is worthy of nothing but the lowest contempt.

[Tom]

Understanding this as a reinterpretation, nevertheless, it is still deemed as appropriate.

What else is reinterpretable? Who decides what can and cannot be reinterpreted?

Fair question. To be honest, its up to the individual Jew. My personal practice is to not judge another practicing Jew. As disgusted as I am with people like Tom, who have rejected Judaism, and in my opinion, should be killed outright, I have a strict practice of not judging another Jew's practice of his Faith. I admit, when it comes to EXTREMELY Liberal Judaism, that practice slips a bit, as I find that form of the Faith to be rather distasteful. But personally, I can take just about anything, from Chabad (which most non-Jews would consider ultra-Orthodox) to Classical Reform (which to a Non-Jew looks almost like Lutheranism without Jesus) and consider it respectable. I may not agree with it, but I can respect it as at least an attempt at trying to be Jewish. It is the Jew who rejects his Faith, like Tom, that just flat pisses me off, and to be honest, makes me want to rip his throat out.

He has abandoned and disgraced his people. In his own way, he is worse than Hitler, because he would give Hitler a posthumous victory, by destroying Judaism from within. The self-hating Jew, the Jew who hates Judaism, is worthy of nothing but the lowest contempt.

this is outragious insulting. Unacceptable!

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

No worse than what you have said about me.

[Rama Set]

No worse than what you have said about me.

Well you wished death on him so it really is.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I simply wished halachic regulation to be fulfilled. I did not suggest doing it myself, although I admit that I am angry enough to want to. I made no threats. so, no, it isn't.