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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Groundhog Day Crime
« on: January 26, 2015, 02:04:40 PM »
Let's assume that you can start and end a 'Groundhog Day'-style time loop whenever you want so that anything you do in the loop will be undone once the loop ends. let's further assume that you use this superpowre to commit various crimes and felonies, from murder to rape, from speeding to acts of terrorism.

If somebody finds out what you've been doing in the time-loop, should you be arrested and serve time?

Alternatively, if you're in a relationship and you use the time-loop to have sex with other people, would that count as cheating and is your partner justified in leaving you if they find out?

Thork

Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2015, 02:12:21 PM »
This OP makes no sense.

I can't do time because it'll be the start of the day again before I face trial.
My partner can't leave me because after she finds out, its the beginning of the day again and she doesn't know.

What are you trying to ask? Do you really mean is it ok to be evil if no one would ever find out and there were no repercussions at all? The answer is it would be fine because no one would ever find out and there would be no repercussions at all. the whole concept of good and bad is a man made construct to give us a rough outline as to ensuring better repercussions in the future. Murder someone, it is bad for others and probably you. Cheat on your girlfriend and it could be bad for others and you.

Why did you wrap it up in this silly groundhog day scenario?

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2015, 02:34:38 PM »
Quote
Why did you wrap it up in this silly groundhog day scenario?

I'm bored.

For the crime, it is easier to argue that there is no harm done by your actions.

In the latter, cheating is more a matter of trust than the act of cheating itself. If you have sex with another person, groundhog day it so that it never happened but you still have memory of it, haven't you still broken the trust between you, even though there is no evidence that anything ever took place.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2015, 02:38:28 PM »
Quote
Why did you wrap it up in this silly groundhog day scenario?

I'm bored.

For the crime, it is easier to argue that there is no harm done by your actions.

In the latter, cheating is more a matter of trust than the act of cheating itself. If you have sex with another person, groundhog day it so that it never happened but you still have memory of it, haven't you still broken the trust between you, even though there is no evidence that anything ever took place.

I think until the Groundhog Day loop is broken, the looper can only be charged with Conspiracy.  After the loop is broken you could only charge him/her with whatever crime becomes the true history of the timeline.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Thork

Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2015, 03:17:56 PM »
In the latter, cheating is more a matter of trust than the act of cheating itself. If you have sex with another person, groundhog day it so that it never happened but you still have memory of it, haven't you still broken the trust between you, even though there is no evidence that anything ever took place.
I think you are missing the point of why cheating is a social crime.

People are supposed to be monogamous. We don't have enormous testicles like a pig or a horse. And rearing children takes us longer than any other creature on earth. Its a commitment that two people make to agree to invest their genetics in each other.

Bearing in mind the huge effort of raising a child (in modern day times it costs a lot of money but it would have been a bunch of hunting and gathering in the past), you are both going to want to make sure it is your child that is being looked after. You don't want her cheating because she could fall pregnant to another guy and you spend the next 18 years paying for it. And vice versa, she doesn't want you splitting resources that could go to her child with women you have made pregnant. It is such an investment that there needs to be that mutual trust and breaking it elicits such strong emotions because of the effort required from both parties.

There are also other implications such as disease. She isn't going to want you to bring back VD and give her a blind child.

This is why its a social no-no. This is why people get furious about it. This is why you feel guilt. Its all hardwired. Those primeval feelings make you part of a successful species.

Now you can throw on a condom and have sex with your own sister these days and it actually isn't going to have the 'repercussions' one could previously expect. But my God you are still going to get some serious grief about it because modern day contraception is 50 years old and our cavemen brains aren't. It is not possible to rationalise past those hardwired emotions. People will feel hurt. The Law is catching up. Adultery is no longer a crime. Incest still is. Religion is catching up, divorce is now ok, contraception isn't. But we'll probably evolve gills before a woman isn't pissed at you for cheating.

So stop hand wringing. If you could get away with it and it really was the perfect crime, that's what a perfect crime is. Its perfect. You gained, no one lost.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 03:20:16 PM by Thork »

Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2015, 03:29:21 PM »
No.
If you change time, what occurred previously, even if you remember it, is irrelevant.

Personal guilt is another matter.

But really, it's like asking if you should be arrested because you shoot at characters in a video game that look like your boss.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2015, 04:01:54 PM »
Thork, you wouldn't feel betrayed if your partner was the one abusing their Bill Murray powers?

"Hey, I learned this sexy trick from your best friend. Don't worry, I wrote over that day so it never happened..."

Thork

Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2015, 04:12:42 PM »
Thork, you wouldn't feel betrayed if your partner was the one abusing their Bill Murray powers?
One that day, yes. But I wouldn't know about it the next day ... so I couldn't feel betrayed. It is as though it never happened.

"Hey, I learned this sexy trick from your best friend. Don't worry, I wrote over that day so it never happened..."
This doesn't matter either because the next day I've forgotten where she learned that trick. I can't be mad about that either because I don't know about it again.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2015, 04:28:21 PM »
They have the power to start and stop a loop whenever they want, so they tell you, it hurts, and they don't use their power to restart the loop before you found out.

Thork

Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2015, 04:39:37 PM »
They have the power to start and stop a loop whenever they want, so they tell you, it hurts, and they don't use their power to restart the loop before you found out.
Then its not a loop.

What are you trying to find out? If she cheats and tells me, it hurts. If she subsequently resets I don't know any different and it doesn't matter because on my time line in my dimension, it never happened.

Are you probing to see the mechanism of guilt? You can't feel guilty if you did nothing. Resetting means you did nothing. you made the stupid concept. At any point you can undo it. So it is undone and there is nothing to feel guilty about. You need only feel guilty about not resetting and causing pain. Reset and you erased it. It never happened. no guilt.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2015, 05:21:41 PM »
They have the power to start and stop a loop whenever they want, so they tell you, it hurts, and they don't use their power to restart the loop before you found out.
Then its not a loop.

A loop doesn't have to be infinite.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2015, 05:38:10 PM »
It's a loop in that the Groundhog day one ends and he wakes up the day after.

You say that when you reset you have done nothing, but you obviously don't see it that way if your other half has cheated but then erased it from history. If you would still feel hurt about an erased timeline, would you prosecute someone if it were revealed that they had been using their powers to abuse children before erasing that timeline?

If not, why would you feel hurt at the cheating, if so, where would we draw the line on erased crimes? Someone could be hurt and made to feel vulnerable if it were discovered that the Looper had brutally tortured and murdered them in an erased timeline.

I'm not trying to make a larger point about morality or guilt (but if the topic moves that way I'm not against it), just exploring the morality of an impossible situation.

Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2015, 06:12:27 PM »
It's a loop in that the Groundhog day one ends and he wakes up the day after.

You say that when you reset you have done nothing, but you obviously don't see it that way if your other half has cheated but then erased it from history. If you would still feel hurt about an erased timeline, would you prosecute someone if it were revealed that they had been using their powers to abuse children before erasing that timeline?

If not, why would you feel hurt at the cheating, if so, where would we draw the line on erased crimes? Someone could be hurt and made to feel vulnerable if it were discovered that the Looper had brutally tortured and murdered them in an erased timeline.

I'm not trying to make a larger point about morality or guilt (but if the topic moves that way I'm not against it), just exploring the morality of an impossible situation.

Better question:
What if you lied about cheating, saying you did when you did not?
Same result as erasing history.

Thork

Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2015, 08:36:09 PM »
but you obviously don't see it that way if your other half has cheated but then erased it from history. If you would still feel hurt about an erased timeline,
No, you didn't read what I wrote. I said the exact opposite. I would not care what happened in other timelines or dimensions. It did not happen in my reality ... ie it is not real, its only in my head ... a bit like this entire made up construct.

If she cheats and tells me, it hurts. If she subsequently resets I don't know any different and it doesn't matter because on my time line in my dimension, it never happened.


Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2015, 06:28:45 PM »
The cheated's knowledge of the deed doesn't effect the fact that their partner cheated.

Thork

Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2015, 09:10:22 PM »
The cheated's knowledge of the deed doesn't effect the fact that their partner cheated.
If you reset the timeline, the deed never happened. Nothing to feel bad about. Maybe you murdered someone in an alternate reality? Would you feel bad if you knew you'd done that?

Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2015, 10:12:47 PM »
If I murdered someone and carried that knowledge with me through a reset day, I'd feel guilty knowing what I did.

Thork

Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2015, 10:14:33 PM »
If I murdered someone and carried that knowledge with me through a reset day, I'd feel guilty knowing what I did.
Yes, same timeline and dimension. Now reset the day and that person is still alive ... so what do you have to feel bad about? Same with the cheating. It never happened.

Ghost of V

Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2015, 10:44:54 PM »
If I murdered someone and carried that knowledge with me through a reset day, I'd feel guilty knowing what I did.
Yes, same timeline and dimension. Now reset the day and that person is still alive ... so what do you have to feel bad about? Same with the cheating. It never happened.

What difference does it make?

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Offline jroa

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Re: Groundhog Day Crime
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2015, 10:50:23 PM »
If I murdered someone and carried that knowledge with me through a reset day, I'd feel guilty knowing what I did.
Yes, same timeline and dimension. Now reset the day and that person is still alive ... so what do you have to feel bad about? Same with the cheating. It never happened.

What if that person is really dead in another dimension?  Does that make him any less dead, or do you only worry about the people around you?