[AATW]

They knew the earth was flat and so did everyone else.

They didn't have the technology to observe the earth directly.
Now we do.

And while cycles may be used to predict eclipses at a high level, calculating the exact path uses a globe model

[flannel jesus]

They predicted eclipses relevant to the earth, period. They didn't use a model of a flat earth to do it - they didn't really use a model of the earth or the moon or the sun at all to do it. So with all that being said, I'm not sure why we're even talking about it. Yes they were flat eathers. That doesn't mean everything they did, they did with a real model of a flat earth. There's not a whole lot more to say on that topic.

[Action80]

Of course, the patterns were all established relative to the flat earth they were standing on.

Look, if you do not want to get blasted out of the water on points you brought up to begin with, then quit bringing up those points.

[flannel jesus]

Of course, the patterns were all established relative to the flat earth they were standing on.

Look, if you do not want to get blasted out of the water on points you brought up to begin with, then quit bringing up those points.

What point do you think I brought up?

[flannel jesus]

I imagine you're referring to my 'globe model' post at the top of the previous page.

But it's true, saros cycles can be used to make imprecise predictions about the time and approximate path of the solar eclipse, but the eclipse also has a specific shape drawn out on the surface of the earth as well, and the saros calculations don't include information about that.

However, there are calculations that can be done to determine the shape:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_eclipse#:~:text=Besselian%20elements%20are%20used%20to,umbra's%20shadow%20on%20Earth's%20surface.

Besselian elements are used to predict whether an eclipse will be partial, annular, or total (or annular/total), and what the eclipse circumstances will be at any given location.[34]: Chapter 11 

Calculations with Besselian elements can determine the exact shape of the umbra's shadow on Earth's surface.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besselian_elements

That's all about projecting shadows onto spheres. Globe model baby.

[Longtitube]

You are talking about this North-South movement from this University of Arizona diagram:



The above diagram is not to scale, but we can compute with the correct values. Starting from the New Moon position in the diagram lets calculate how fast the Moon is descending Southward.

To get the dimensions of one of the sides of the triangle to the right of the Earth in the above image we can fill out a Triangle Calculator with 5 degrees, 238900 (avg distance from earth to moon in miles), and 90 degrees.



This creates the following result:



The shortest side a, the Opposite Side, is 20,201.13241 miles

We take this value and double it to get the Opposite Side of the other triangle that would be on the lower left of the diagram scene when it approaches Full Moon.

20,201.13241 miles x 2 = 40402.26482 Miles

There are 29.5306 days in a lunar month, the time it takes to get from New Moon to the next New Moon. This should be divided by two to get the time from New Moon to Full Moon

29.5306 / 2 = 14.7653 days in half a lunar month

Half a lunar month in hours is 354.3672 Hours

Now, to get the speed the Moon is traveling Southward we can divide distance by time:

40402.26482 / 354.3672 = 114.0124 Miles Per Hour

The total time of the Aug 12, 2026 total eclipse shadow can be found on https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2026-august-12

First location to see the full eclipse begin   Aug 12 at 16:58:09 (UTC)
Last location to see the full eclipse end   Aug 12 at 18:34:07 (UTC)

This is only about 1 hour and a half hours, and according to the maps the total eclipse shadow is traveling a distance equivalent to about the diameter of the Arctic Circle. Unless you are proposing that that North-South distance traveled is only about 171 miles, this does not make sense.

The shadow should obviously be moving Southward far slower.

I applaud your trying some actual calculations for this, but must point out some shortcomings in your reasoning.

Although you've calculated vertical distance (relative to the ecliptic) between new moon and full moon, you then divide this distance by the time between these events to give an average vertical speed for this movement. This suggests the Moon moves at this speed between new and full moon, but this is unrealistic and implies the Moon's vertical speed would immediately reverse at the full moon to the same speed in the opposite direction. This sudden reversal in vertical speed would be immediately visible to astronomic observers, but no such change is seen: it would be a big talking point for anyone interested in lunar astronomy. The Moon moves in an elliptical orbit around Earth, so vertical speed (relative to the ecliptic) will increase from nil at the new moon to a maximum as it crosses the ecliptic, decrease to nil as the full moon is reached, increase to maximum in the opposite direction as it re-crosses the ecliptic and decrease to nil as the next new moon is reached. The acceleration and deceleration won't be linear either, as a consequence of the elliptical orbit. Solar eclipses occur when the Moon is on or very close to the ecliptic, so the Moon will be moving at or near its maximum vertical speed.

Applying the calculated vertical speed to the globe presents further problems: a globe is not a flat wall and 100 vertical miles (relative to the ecliptic) will be almost exactly 100 surface miles on Earth near the Equator, but more than 1100 surface miles, for example, at latitude 85°N. This shows in the gif when the shadow is crossing the Arctic Ocean much faster than in mid-Atlantic.

Furthermore, the animated gif shows that the moon shadow is running off to the eastern rim of daylight over the Mediterranean as the eclipse ends, so the horizontal surface speed (relative to the ecliptic) on the globe is much greater than at mid-eclipse.

Much more work to do, sorry.

[Tom Bishop]

The Moon is obviously moving very slow on a Southward trajectory over its lunar month. I don't see any contradicting math which says otherwise. Therefore this doesn't work.

[Tom Bishop]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besselian_elements

That's all about projecting shadows onto spheres. Globe model baby.

Incorrect. The polynomials in the Besselian Elements are most directly derived from a flat earth, not directly from a round earth:

https://eclipse2024.org/predictions.html

"First (without realizing the joy of legitimization this act might bring to a certain subset of future Earth inhabitants), Bessel flattened the Earth. That’s right, he considered an Earth that was not spherical but flat (have we opened a can of worms here?), and thought about how to calculate the umbral path on this flattened Earth. But to do that, he needed to consider a very “special” flat Earth. Bessel imagined a huge flat plane lying in space, with the conical umbra of the Moon scraping across it during an eclipse:

As the Moon moved, the imaginary flat Earth-plane rotated slightly along with it, so that the umbra was at all times hitting this “Earth” in a perfectly perpendicular fashion. This simplified the situation so much that the entire shadow path could be calculated using only a few orbital parameters, mostly based on the movement of the Moon.

By keeping the plane of the now-flat Earth (which Bessel called the “fundamental plane”) perfectly perpendicular to the Moon’s shadow axis, Bessel was assured that the outline of the umbra’s intercept of the fundamental plane would always be a circle. This gives us a very easy-to-describe object traveling over a very easy-to-describe plane, using only parameters that involve the movement of the Moon. While it is still true that finding the position of the Moon in the first place was still ultra-complicated, there were known algorithms to do that. Bessel was only taking as input some values from those lunar position calculations that were already being done (called the “Besselian Elements” of the eclipse), and then applying them to his simplified eclipse situation. The eclipse calculations can then, in fact, be done with nothing more than high school trig! Bessel’s simplification was pure genius."

Besselian Elements also does not require a globe model for plotting the elements onto a map projection:

[flannel jesus]

Nope. You see, we know with high accuracy where that shadow’s outline lies on the fundamental plane at any given time. We also know (via some very common spherical trigonometry formulas – or at least, as common as spherical trig ever gets!) how to “project” that lunar shadow circle on the fundamental plane up to the surface of the real Earth, thereby converting the coordinates of that shadow’s position on the plane into real latitude and longitude coordinates we can use with a round Earth. This assumes we know what part of the Earth is lying directly above that shadow’s spot on the fundamental plane; but since we know the exact time represented by our calculation (we choose it to be whatever we want), we know how far the Earth has moved in its daily rotation. A big tweak due to the equation of time (based on what day of the year it is), and a little tweak due to an ever-changing value of Delta-T, and we have our answer!

A complication arises due to the fact that the Earth’s flattening is not constant, but depends on the latitude under consideration. So if you want to know where that fundamental plane shadow outline projects up onto the real Earth’s surface, you have to know the latitude of where that projection will end up at. But you don’t know that exactly where that is UNTIL you project it

For evidence that they don't use a globe model, this article sure does spend a lot of time talking about projecting stuff onto a globe. Good find Tom.

[AATW]

Incorrect. The polynomials in the Besselian Elements are most directly derived from a flat earth, not directly from a round earth:

Oh dear! You accidently left this bit out from the link you provided:

We also know (via some very common spherical trigonometry formulas – or at least, as common as spherical trig ever gets!) how to “project” that lunar shadow circle on the fundamental plane up to the surface of the real Earth, thereby converting the coordinates of that shadow’s position on the plane into real latitude and longitude coordinates we can use with a round Earth. This assumes we know what part of the Earth is lying directly above that shadow’s spot on the fundamental plane; but since we know the exact time represented by our calculation (we choose it to be whatever we want), we know how far the Earth has moved in its daily rotation. A big tweak due to the equation of time (based on what day of the year it is), and a little tweak due to an ever-changing value of Delta-T, and we have our answer!

some detail snipped

And, sorry to say for flat-Earthers, if we do this based on our knowledge of the exact value of the flattening of the Earth that we've determined through the science of geodesy, we come up with values that are found in practice to be literally perfect on eclipse day. Yup, we’ve assumed a round Earth, and we’ve obtained values that match our observations to the second. That’s pretty good evidence that we’ve got the Earth’s curvature correct!

Thanks for yet more globe earth evidence, Tom. You're really good at finding this stuff!

[sandokhan]

I highly doubt that the world is going to experience the August 2026 solar eclipse. When the Sun will reach the outer limit of its precessional westward shift, it will start to orbit beyond the Tropic, and this phenomenon will happen soon. The first signs to watch out for will be massive GPS signal fluctuations/interferences, which will indicate a magnetic pole shift (reversal).

https://theskylive.com/planetarium?obj=jupiter&date=1776-07-04&h=17&m=22

https://theskylive.com/planetarium?obj=jupiter&date=1776-06-21&h=17&m=22

https://theskylive.com/planetarium?obj=jupiter&date=2025-06-21&h=17&m=22

https://theskylive.com/planetarium?obj=jupiter&date=2025-07-04&h=17&m=22

[Action80]

sandokhan, the images you posted are all from the year 1776.

I clicked the images and have posted the same website with the correct date and year shown.

Solar Eclipse

[sandokhan]

The original mayan step pyramid on the Great Seal.

But why is the year 1776 depicted on the first step of the pyramid? Why is it so important?

July IV MDCCLXXVI / July IV MMXXV

On June 21 1776, Jupiter was on top of the club held by Orion, and so it will be on June 21 2025. Now, in FET we have the westward precessional shift of the Sun, ~1.52-1.54 km/yr.

While the total interval which has been alloted for the solar precession measures 508.8 km, we can infer from various sources that after the great flood there are only 381.8 km left which amounts to some 249 years.

Most researchers refer to this source when they are trying to calculate the date of the astronomical reset:

The sun, moon, and Brihaspati will align in the constellation of Karkata and enter simultaneously the lunar mansion of Pushya (Pushya Nakshatra) at that exact moment the age of Satya, or Krita, will begin.
Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 12

Karkata = Crab constellation

The problem is with Brihaspati which is Rudra (Betelgeuse), and since Jupiter and Mars were located exactly in that sign of the zodiac some 249 years ago (the date which I believe was related to the last astronomical reset), Brihaspati became planet Jupiter (Vedic cosmology). However, Brihaspati is Rudra. How would Rudra move between the Gemini and Crab constellations from its current position?

https://sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe083.htm

And the moon shall alter her order,
And not appear at her time.
[And in those days the sun shall be seen and he shall journey in the evening †on the extremity of the great chariot† in the west]
And shall shine more brightly than accords with the order of light.

And many chiefs of the stars shall transgress the order (prescribed).
And these shall alter their orbits and tasks,
And not appear at the seasons prescribed to them.

If I knew precisely the date when Sun had started to move precesionally westward, I could calculate the time of the next astronomical reset to the very day.

[Action80]

Are you stating the alignment shown in the screengrab I posted will not occur?

[sandokhan]

1967: "The results were ASTONISHING. The cosmic rays could not penetrate the water saturated limestone blocks of the pyramids."

1974: "In 1974, apparently unaware of the pyramid x-raying of Alvarez, the National Science Foundation launched another attempt to x-ray the pyramids.

This time the results were published.

The limestone rocks were too saturated with water to allow penetration by cosmic rays."


https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2225892#msg2225892

The Gizeh pyramid was submerged under the sea for weeks, up to an altitude of 100 meters:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2241300#msg2241300

That is when the last magnetic pole reversal and dome shift had occurred. And where the countdown of the precessional clock began. In my opinion we are very near the end of the Sun's precessional cycle, where it will reach the outer limit of its alloted orbit, and then it will go beyond the Tropic: this event will start the astronomical reset.


The grammatical errors which have been found in the text of the book of apocalypse:


https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/2c19oh/poor_quality_greek_in_the_book_of_revelation_why/
https://www.bereaninsights.org/bible-gem-2188-why-is-the-greek-of-revelation-and-johns-gospel-different/
https://postmillennialworldview.com/2014/04/23/revelations-hebraic-grammar/
https://www.bartehrman.com/who-wrote-the-book-of-revelation/

C. Selwynn’s complaint regarding John’s grammar: it would be a “disgrace” to an “English fifth-form school-boy” because it involves “hopelessly bad Greek.” Schlesinger notes that “the solecisms of the Apocalypse remain virtually indetectable to the English reader. English translations smooth out the awkward grammar of the apocalyptist so that the reader of the English is never ‘stopped in mid-course and confounded.”

As Maier puts it: “a reading of contemporary translations of the Apocalypse [does] not reveal [its] complexity. The Book of Revelation translated in modern English Bibles reflects a cleaned-up Greek text and, especially when it comes to translation of verb tenses, a far more orderly account of the things John heard and saw than the original suggests.”

The original text in 13:5 says "new moons", not "months". That is, forty and two new moons.

https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/hemera

https://www.bibleinsight.com/rev13.html new moons not months
https://www.bibleinsight.com/newmoon.html
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011,Hisgalus%201&version=ESV;OJB

4. And the moon shall alter her order,
And not appear at her time.

https://sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe083.htm

That is, there will be 42 consecutive new moons (40 days or so), not 42 consecutive months.


When the Sun will go beyond the Tropic, everything we know about astronomy will be thrown into dissaray, including the periodicity/recurrence of the solar/lunar eclipses.

The first sign to watch out for will be the massive disruptions in the GPS signals.

[Action80]

sandokhan, are you stating the alignment I posted in the screengrab will not occur?

[sandokhan]

There are several screengrabs in this thread, all dealing with the August 12, 2026 total solar ecilpse. What I am stating is this: if the Sun will go beyond one of the Tropics before that date (8/12/26) the times listed for the solar/lunar eclipses for the 21st century will have to be modified greatly (they may not even occur at all after the astronomical reset).

[flannel jesus]

How did you figure that out? Did you consult your tarot cards?

[sandokhan]

How did you figure that out? Did you consult your tarot cards?

https://www.getyourfree.info/WIP-ch30.pdf

Chapters 27-30:

https://web.archive.org/web/20250000000000*/https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Kenneth%20White%20-%20World%20in%20Peril%20(extracted%20pages).pdf

[flannel jesus]

How did you figure that out? Did you consult your tarot cards?

https://www.getyourfree.info/WIP-ch30.pdf

If the world "flips" before the next eclipse, the eclipse predictions will come out wrong.

That seems like what you're saying, but that's also just trivially true. If the shape of the world drastically changes before ANY eclipse, not specifically the 2026 one, then of course the eclipse predictions could end up wrong.

Is there some reason why you think it's likely to happen before the next eclipse? If there's not, I'm not sure how your position here is more meaningful than me saying something like, "if we nuke Greenland of the map, then the prediction that the next eclipse will go over Greenland will be wrong", or "if the sun turns into a giant egg, then the eclipse predictions will be wrong." They're all technically true statements, but also... not interesting in any way.