My complaint about FET isn't that it is incomplete, it's that it doesn't really exist at all. I mean, there's no working map for one thing, that's pretty fundamental.
Look at you. You can't hold your breath for 2 sentences. "Uhhh the problem isn't that it's incomplete, just look at this thing that's necessary for its completion!!!!!".
The issue is that "incomplete" isn't a strong enough word. RET is incomplete, there are things it can't explain. But there's plenty it can and does a good job of modelling. FET doesn't even exist. There is no working model which has any predictive power at all.
Also, your claim that the FE map isn't "working" is entirely misguided; and your claim that it's "fundamental" is pulled out of thin air.
We know how far places are apart, we know the shapes and sizes of land masses. If the earth is flat it should be possible to plot them on a map and it match the reality. The earth is flat, maps are flat. Just scale down. The entire reason that every map of the whole earth is a projection is that maps are flat and the earth isn't, so some distortion has to be introduced. So yes, I regard it as pretty fundamental that there's no working map. If you couldn't make a globe of the earth which accurately depicts land mass shapes and sizes and the distances between them then that would put quite a big dent in the claim that the earth is a globe.
The other option is to deny the known distances I guess, that's the approach Tom seems to take. But that's a bit of a stretch given that there's a whole travel industry predicated on knowing where places are and GPS demonstrably works.
But while FET has some hypotheses which can explain observations, those are often to explain why observations don't match what you'd see were the earth flat.
No. That's just your imagination of the motives behind our observations.
I do at times suspect that you lot are treating this as an academic exercise. You know the earth is a globe, but let's imagine the earth is flat - why does the sun appear to set? Why do objects fall? EA and UA are thus invented to explain those things - things which RET already has explanations for.
But the motive isn't really that important. The point is you guys are simultaneously claiming that observations show the earth is flat and hypothesising mechanisms which explain why observations aren't what you'd expect to see on a flat earth.
you lot are this meme
Nah. That's a straw man. You don't have to explain
everything, as discussed RET can't do that.
But you need to explain
some things. If your model doesn't explain things better than RET then it's not going to be taken seriously by the scientifically literate.
EA is actually a pretty good explanation for sunset - it's a million times better than "perspective" or some of the other rubbish you see on some FE YouTube channels. But your reasoning about it is circular. The sun sets in your model because the light bends upwards. How do we know light bends upwards? Well, the sun sets, doesn't it?
Now, that might be unfair, but I've yet to see any solid experimental evidence that this phenomena even exists.
And none of your ideas have any predictive power. RET can explain annual meteor showers and predict when they will next occur. FET can't.
Incorrect, especially given that the models don't even differ in this case. You're literally saying that orbital mechanics simultaneously can and can't predict the same phenomenon.
How do the models not differ? The RE model has the earth orbiting the sun because of gravity. The meteors are in a certain part of that orbit so as the earth goes through it we get a meteor shower. In FE the celestial bodies are rotating above us once a day. What's the equivalent annual cycle which would explain the annual meteor showers. I'm not saying none can exist but it can't be identical to RE.
You were the one who raised quantity as a subject. Now you're complaining that I responded to you without changing the subject.
I'm not complaining. You said the FET had been a success, I simply asked by what metric. If your aim is to convince a lot of people then yes, I guess FET has been a success. But that's not what I meant by the model being "widely adopted" - that is not about quantity in terms of your average Joe. A lot of scientifically illiterate people believing in FET and not using it for any practical purpose, instead of believing in RET and not using that for any practical purpose, isn't a model being widely adopted. The model hasn't been adopted by any professionals working in the relevant fields. There are no FE equations one can use to model things and launch satellites.
The "serious scientific community" is the cause of the "depressing" state of the world you're decrying so much. People just aren't interested in pandering to the old guard simply because they're the old guard.
Unsurprisingly, I disagree. People don't need to "pander" to anyone, but people should listen to subject matter experts because...well, they're experts.
If I'm ill I go see a doctor, if my boiler stops working I call a boiler engineer.
Now, experts aren't
always right of course, but this growing attitude that the average man in the street knows better than people who have studied in a particular field for years or even decades is ridiculous. That's the state of the world I am depressed by and I don't see how the scientific community have
caused that. I'd suggest the cause is the internet, it allows bad ideas to proliferate far more quickly than they ever could before. The free availability of information about any topic is a good thing, but a lot of people have a misplaced confidence in their ability to understand what they're looking at. Googling things is not "doing your own research".
Now, I'm not saying that unswerving, unthinking confidence in experts is a good thing either, but there's surely a sensible middle ground.
Your position, from previous conversations, seems to be that everyone should figure out a model of reality for themselves. That's like saying everyone should build their own house. Sorry, but I don't have the skills. I wouldn't know where to start. There is a right way of building a house so it doesn't fall down, so why not get some people who know what they're doing to do that.
Because you're trying to replace a model which works (for most practical purposes) with one which doesn't.
Incorrect. FE works better than RE.
Counterpoint - no it doesn't. You have no model which has any predictive power so in what way does it "work better"? Give an example.
RE contains unresolveable contradictions, while FE is simply less complete than RE.
What makes you say they're unresolvable?
The latter has been directly observed and multiple technologies which demonstrably work rely on its shape.
Incorrect. They were determined with RE assumptions, and they happen to work.
OK. So GPS works by having a cluster of satellites orbiting the globe. By knowing the positions of some of those satellites and using timestamps you can figure out where you are. Are you suggesting that NASA thought they were putting satellites into orbit around a globe but they're actually just circling over a FE, and all the calculations used to find your position just happen to work out?
And, again, the globe earth has been observed. There are numerous satellites and other craft which have taken photos, there are timelapses of those showing the rotating earth. And the ISS is in orbit as we speak, an object which can be observed from the ground and which ham radio operators have contacted. Again, do NASA just think it's orbiting the globe but it's really just circling above us and all the RE calculations used to get it there just happened to work out despite the earth really being flat? The other option is that the ISS is fake of course, that's a path a lot of FE people go down. But...well, you can see it from the ground so that's a bit of a stretch. Clearly something is up there.