[GoldCashew]

See my comment above:

Even if fake, you still need to get the public and people out of the loop on board and convince people of the plan to get funding.

The US Congress approved the risky scheme because they were desperate.

Russia was not desperate, and did not publicaly announce that this was their goal. Clearly a difference there.

The Soviets could have created a fake funding scheme..... to fund a fake manned mission to the Moon.

Russia wouldn't need to be desperate anyways.... because its all fake.

[stack]

See my comment above:

Even if fake, you still need to get the public and people out of the loop on board and convince people of the plan to get funding.

The US Congress approved the risky scheme because they were desperate.

Russia was not desperate, and did not publicaly announce that this was their goal. Clearly a difference there.

Easy to see why a desperate US would try to beat the Russians at something after so many losses. Turns out that the Russians never consented to a manned moon race  and it was mostly hype.

I'm not sure what all this stuff about competition or no competition, race versus no race is, nor why it matters or is relevant. In any case, it appears the Soviets were fully onboard with a manned lunar landing.

The Soviet decision to land cosmonauts on the Moon
In the early years of the Soviet space programme, no decree, however, had more of an impact on Soviet aspirations to explore space than the one adopted and signed on 3 August 1964 (‘decree no. 655-268’). This decision committed the Soviet Union to a manned lunar landing in competition with the American Apollo programme; specifically it approved the development of the N-1/L-3 lunar complex

The Soviet Reach for The Moon
Meanwhile, in the US the Saturn I had already flown with a boilerplate Apollo spacecraft, and the lunar program was on track for a landing on the Moon before the decade was out. Finally, Korolev succeeded in convincing the Soviet goverrunent that a Russian could still be the first man on the Moon only if an official program were initiated inunediately. A decree entitled "On Work Involving the Study of the Moon and Outer Space" set 1967-1968 as the target date for a lunar landing. However, Korolev found his N-l rocket competing with designs by Chelomei (UR-7

[markjo]

There is nothing to skip. Read above. They publicly said they were not in a race to send men to the Moon...

If Russia was willing to lie about sending humans to orbit, then why would you think that they wouldn't be willing to lie about their intentions to send humans to the moon?  Don't forget that, because of the Cold War, much of Russia's space program at the time was carried out in secret and many missions only announced after they were over.  We didn't find out a lot of things about their space program until after the Soviet Union collapsed and they opened their archives to the world.

3: Was Russia Going to the Moon?

"We choose to go to the moon this decade," said President John F. Kennedy to a crowd assembled at the sweltering Rice University football stadium on Sept. 12, 1962, "and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard...." With those words, there was no doubt about the United States' intention to land a man on the moon. But as the Americans ramped up their lunar program, the Soviets seemed unimpressed, calling the lunar missions risky and worthless while insisting they were focusing on the development of space stations. It left some wondering: Was the Space Race even a race at all?

As it turns out, it was a race — but the world didn't know for sure until 1989. That's when the Soviets let a group of U.S. scientists tour relics of the communist country's manned lunar program dating from the 1960s and 1970s. Among the equipment was an advanced lunar-landing craft and Earth-return module, indicating not only that the communist nation had a lunar program, but that they were actually quite serious about it [source: Wilford]. The Soviets might have even beaten the U.S. to the moon except for one problem: the rockets. They just didn't have the power to launch equipment with the complexity needed for a moon landing. Tests flights produced mixed results, and in the face of several American successes, the Soviets scrapped the program in the 1970s [source: Hardigree].

[SteelyBob]

The goal posts shifted to planting a flag on the moon with a man after the US lost the space race. Russia clearly and obviously won it with what it was claiming, and was under no obligation to win further arbitrary goal post shifting.

This is utterly surreal. So the US clearly lost a race, despite both participants only pretending to compete?

[DuncanDoenitz]

As a wise Captain will one day say: 

Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship (enter name of starship). Its (enter planned duration) mission: to explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where no man has gone before!

Still don't get it?  Space is just the frontier, its a vacuum, its nothing. The finish line is the new worlds, lives and civilizations.  And we aren't there yet. 

And life must be a riot in the Bishop-household btw;

"Dad, Dad, can we go to Disneyland"?

"No need kids, we'll just send a robot". 

[Tom Bishop]

There is nothing to skip. Read above. They publicly said they were not in a race to send men to the Moon...

If Russia was willing to lie about sending humans to orbit, then why would you think that they wouldn't be willing to lie about their intentions to send humans to the moon?

Actually I said that Russia did not publicly concede to a race to the Moon. They never declared that they were sending people to the moon during the time of Apollo. It wasn't a competition. They may have researched a few things, and made their model of a lander, but NASA interns and academics make new models of planetary landers every year as a standard academic exercise, which never see the light of day. When your space agency partners with academia they research all kinds of wacky stuff.

The assumption that Russia was actively competing to get to the moon is just that, an assumption. At the time they never publicly said that they were trying to get people to the moon, or were in a competition, so that's that. When Apollo 11 happened Russia denied that there was a moon race at all.

[Gonzo]

Tom, I think you need to do a lot more research into the Soviet space programme in the 50s, 60s and 70s before declaring there was 'no comptetion'. Lots of evidence out there, including books written by those involved.

Of course the USSR did not say there was.

In other news, the German Democratic Republic wasn't actually a democracy.

Shocking.

[tusstoss]

There is nothing to skip. Read above. They publicly said they were not in a race to send men to the Moon...

If Russia was willing to lie about sending humans to orbit, then why would you think that they wouldn't be willing to lie about their intentions to send humans to the moon?

Actually I said that Russia did not publicly concede to a race to the Moon. They never declared that they were sending people to the moon during the time of Apollo. It wasn't a competition. They may have researched a few things, and made their model of a lander, but NASA interns and academics make new models of planetary landers every year as a standard academic exercise, which never see the light of day. When your space agency partners with academia they research all kinds of wacky stuff.

The assumption that Russia was actively competing to get to the moon is just that, an assumption. At the time they never publicly said that they were trying to get people to the moon, or were in a competition, so that's that. When Apollo 11 happened Russia denied that there was a moon race at all.

Tom, you clearly have no clue about USSR, it's history or leaders.

You should really go beyond some random wiki articles. I lived in USSR and studied it's history, your claims are something of third grader from USSR school system who read random two pages of 600 books available. Amateurish...

[Pete Svarrior]

tusstoss, if you have an argument to make, make it. If you have nothing to say, consider saying nothing.

[Tom Bishop]

Tom, I think you need to do a lot more research into the Soviet space programme in the 50s, 60s and 70s before declaring there was 'no comptetion'. Lots of evidence out there, including books written by those involved.

Of course the USSR did not say there was.

In other news, the German Democratic Republic wasn't actually a democracy.

Shocking.

The evidence of what they were doing in "secret" and what they were focused on and prioritized on in "secret" is based on speculation though, based on decades-later archival digging and seeing that academics were putting some amount of research into lander and rocket designs.

During the Space Race they were clearly working on lots of different space projects.



It is clearly a matter of national coping to claim that it had to be a man on the moon to win the Space Race, much like the previous analogy given of after losing a foot race deciding that the REAL race is the race to your car in the stadium parking lot.

[stack]

I’m trying to figure out what your argument is in regard to the OP, "why wouldn't Russia have faked a landing on the Moon before the USA did?"

Is it that there was no space race, no competition between the US and America because:

1) There were no terms of what a competition would constitute, a manned landing on the moon was not a part of the agreed-upon parameters of who could be declared the “winner” - America moved the goalposts by touting a manned attempt started by JFK in 61’.
2) So the Soviets were never in the development game of putting a man on the moon, all evidence that they were is “speculative”
3) Even if there was a “race” the Soviets won with their pre-Apollo achievements in space and a manned lunar landing was never in the cards as a part of said “race" (See #1)

Ergo, the USSR felt no need to fake a moon landing because they had already won the space race, a race that didn’t actually exist.

[Gonzo]

Tom,

I agree with stack.

Please can you express what your position is on the Soviet space programme. Maybe I'm missing it but you aren't making a coherent position clear.

Do you accept that the USSR (Note, not Russia!!!) did go into space? It seems from your last post that you do.

I urge you to do reading on the subject. It's not speculation. Leonov, Chertok, Titov, Gerovitch, and Chelomei as well as the standard texts by Siddiqi, Clark, Oberg, Cadbury and French and Burgess are valuable texts.

[SteelyBob]

It is clearly a matter of national coping to claim that it had to be a man on the moon to win the Space Race, much like the previous analogy given of after losing a foot race deciding that the REAL race is the race to your car in the stadium parking lot.

Except, if I've understood you correctly, you're contending that neither the stadium, nor the car park, exist, and that both parties mutually agreed to fake the existence of both, whilst also agreeing, for some odd reason, to not fake running their best race.

[GoldCashew]

Tom, I think you need to do a lot more research into the Soviet space programme in the 50s, 60s and 70s before declaring there was 'no comptetion'. Lots of evidence out there, including books written by those involved.

Of course the USSR did not say there was.

In other news, the German Democratic Republic wasn't actually a democracy.

Shocking.

The evidence of what they were doing in "secret" and what they were focused on and prioritized on in "secret" is based on speculation though, based on decades-later archival digging and seeing that academics were putting some amount of research into lander and rocket designs.

During the Space Race they were clearly working on lots of different space projects.



It is clearly a matter of national coping to claim that it had to be a man on the moon to win the Space Race, much like the previous analogy given of after losing a foot race deciding that the REAL race is the race to your car in the stadium parking lot.

Tom - in the above list of the Soviet Union's fakery of "firsts", why would the Soviet Union skip faking #8 above which is a manned landing on the Moon?

What's more newsworthy at that time than your own citizens landing on the Moon, walking around on the Moon owning it, and then returning safely to Earth showing technological capability. Why skip a beat not faking this. It doesn't make sense.

[Tom Bishop]

Tom - in the above list of the Soviet Union's fakery of "firsts", why would the Soviet Union skip faking #8 above which is a manned landing on the Moon?

Probably because they had already won the space race by that point. Again, it was called the space race and not the 'put a man on the moon' race.

Someone has to approve the plan and give the go-ahead for exorbitant release of public monies, real or fake. The gravy train has to wind down at some point. Note that immediately after Apollo the NASA gravy train of public money also slowed significantly and everyone stopped caring about the Moon.

[GoldCashew]

Tom - in the above list of the Soviet Union's fakery of "firsts", why would the Soviet Union skip faking #8 above which is a manned landing on the Moon?

Probably because they had already won the space race by that point. Again, it was called the space race and not the 'put a man on the moon' race.

Someone has to approve the plan and give the go-ahead for exorbitant release of public monies, real or fake. The gravy train has to wind down at some point.

Likewise, it was called the space race and not:
- 'put an animal in space' race
- 'put a woman in space' race
- 'do a spacewalk in space' race
- 'land a spacecraft on the Moon' race

So, why did the Soviet Union simply not include faking the 'put a man on the Moon' as part of their list of accomplishments?

[stack]

Tom - in the above list of the Soviet Union's fakery of "firsts", why would the Soviet Union skip faking #8 above which is a manned landing on the Moon?

Probably because they had already won the space race by that point. Again, it was called the space race and not the 'put a man on the moon' race.

Someone has to approve the plan and give the go-ahead for exorbitant release of public monies, real or fake. The gravy train has to wind down at some point. Note that immediately after Apollo the NASA gravy train of public money also slowed significantly and everyone stopped caring about the Moon.

It's well documented, not speculative, that they did pour money and resources into a manned mission to the moon. A bunch of citations and references to which have already been posted here. Whether they were "racing" is neither here nor there. They were trying to land a man on the moon throughout the 60's, just like America.

As someone pointed out before, considering that you believe that the Soviets won the space race that apparently never existed, does that mean you believe they launched a satellite, put an animal in space, photographed the far side of the moon, put the first human & woman in space, performed the first spacewalk, and landed a craft on the lunar surface?

[Gonzo]

Tom - in the above list of the Soviet Union's fakery of "firsts", why would the Soviet Union skip faking #8 above which is a manned landing on the Moon?

Probably because they had already won the space race by that point. Again, it was called the space race and not the 'put a man on the moon' race.

Someone has to approve the plan and give the go-ahead for exorbitant release of public monies, real or fake. The gravy train has to wind down at some point. Note that immediately after Apollo the NASA gravy train of public money also slowed significantly and everyone stopped caring about the Moon.

Tom, you are showing how little you know about this subject.

NASA’s budget was at its peak in 1966, when the Gemini programme was still active.

And no, everyone didn’t ‘stop caring about the moon’.

You are aware of Artemis?

Please can you distill down your view on space? It’s coming across as very confused.

[DuncanDoenitz]

By the late 1960s, the Soviet Union was promoting the benefits of Marxist-Leninist society in technology, sport and culture in its own territory, and in the promotion of satellite states (no pun intended) across Europe, Asia and the Americas.  The whole world marvelled at the sound of Sputnik's ping, applauded it Bolshoi, and cheered its superhuman athletes.  Is it even conceivable that they had no aspiration to put Soviet feet-on-the-ground on the biggest object in the night sky? 

"In your face, capitalist pigs!"

[Tumeni]

During the Space Race they were clearly working on lots of different space projects.

Is it the basis of your argument that all of things actually happened for real?