[Rama Set]

https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/590838-house-committee-in-florida-passes-dont-say-gay-bill

Holy shit. Why are the GOP such fucking snowflakes?  Haven’t they figured out yet that kids can’t catch the gay?  Teaching kids about the existence of sexual orientation and non binary gender identity is crucial for the mental health of kids who might identify as LGBTQ+  It leads to a significant reduction in suicide among them. It also just fosters an open mind about people and any sort of deviation from mainstream identity in areas like disability, ethnicity, etc…

TX SB8 has opened such a Pandora’s box because it guarantees that vocal but small minority will be able to inhibit the education system. A true conservative principle would be to encourage the people who don’t want to participate in public education, to not rely on the government to fix their problems, but instead they are asking these bigoted fucktards to become a bigger burden on the government by tying up the legal system in pointless litigation and drain school coffers through payments of damages. The GOP sucks big donkey balls.

[Rushy]

A true conservative principle would be to encourage the people who don’t want to participate in public education

That's exactly what this is, though.

According to the bill, parents may take legal action against their child’s school district and be awarded damages if they believe any of its policies infringe on their “fundamental right to make decisions regarding the upbringing and control of their children.”

Other advocates have criticized the language of one of the Florida bill’s provisions, which would require educators and administrators to effectively “out” known LGBTQ+ students to their parents without their consent.

It's requiring the state to report and concede power to the parents. Public schools should be beholden to a parents' wishes. The government shouldn't have the ultimate say in what your children are taught and it definitely shouldn't withhold information from parents.

Of course pro-government entities are framing this in "it's hateful against the gays!" because that pushes all your correct moral buttons. Convincing people their side is the moral high ground is paramount in ensuring you maintain control over them. It's what makes organized religion so powerful; it's what makes political parties so powerful; it's why you make these "righteous indignation" posts. "We must protect 'the oppressed' from 'the man' by telling 'the man' to oppress the people." is really a hot take coming from you.

[Rama Set]

A true conservative principle would be to encourage the people who don’t want to participate in public education

That's exactly what this is, though.

No. If people don’t like what is being taught then withdraw your kids from public education instead of wasting government resources.

It's requiring the state to report and concede power to the parents. Public schools should be beholden to a parents' wishes. The government shouldn't have the ultimate say in what your children are taught and it definitely shouldn't withhold information from parents.

If you think unqualified parents should dictate the curriculum compared to educational professionals, then we will never agree on this. If parents think they can provide a better education, then they should withdraw their kids and do it themselves and not litigate their beliefs wasting government resources.
 

Of course pro-government entities are framing this in "it's hateful against the gays!" because that pushes all your correct moral buttons. Convincing people their side is the moral high ground is paramount in ensuring you maintain control over them. It's what makes organized religion so powerful, it's what makes political parties so powerful and it's why you make these "righteous indignation" posts about how we simply must protect 'the oppressed' from 'the man' by telling 'the man' to oppress the people.

Ok snowflake. There is nothing oppressive about having knowledge taught. Do these parents not have a strong enough tie with their kids to indoctrinate them in to their preferred world view? People who feel threatened by dissemination of knowledge about sexual orientation and gender identity are sad little cave people. These cave people have options available to them already to avoid this, but the GOP, in their effort to try and remain socially relevant (they aren’t, pretty much every social issue has the more liberal view favored by a majority of Americans), they want to empower the losers that are scared of the gays to sue people. There is nothing conservative about this. The only reason they are passing these litigation-style bills is to try and end around the constitution because they know it’s nonsense that would never survive a challenge.

[Tom Bishop]

The constitution doesn't say anything about this. It leaves education up to the states to decide, and this one did.

Sex Ed is already optional in most public schools. Parents can choose to opt out on a form to approve sex ed for their children and they won't be put into those courses. I don't see how this LGBT+ education is any different than Sex Ed.

I would prefer that school teachers not try to brainwash children into thinking what may be an arguable mental disorder for some people is normal. Obviously their goal is to normalize it, not just to inform and educate. If their goal was really education they would save it for later years. But no, it needs to be forced onto young children as well.

[Lord Dave]

This bill is blatent fear mongering.
And its going to fuck up alot of teenagers. 
See teachers are often a source of advice for teens who, for reasons we all should remember, don't want to discuss things with our parents.  And the next option is google.
But now teachers can't for fear of being sued.
"Mr. Jackson... I need some advice if I should join the football team.."
"Sorry Scott, I'm not allowed to give you advice in case it upsets your parents."



And god help the schools when the first 'my kid is being taught evolution instead of God's truth' comes down the pipe.

In fact... What happens if two parents sue over opposing view points?  Like in theory this bill could be used to sue a school for NOT teaching LBGT+ stuff as well as suing for teaching it.

The constitution doesn't say anything about this. It leaves education up to the states to decide, and this one did.

Sex Ed is already optional in most public schools. Parents can choose to opt out on a form to approve sex ed for their children and they won't be put into those courses. I don't see how this LGBT+ education is any different than Sex Ed.

I would prefer that school teachers not try to brainwash children into thinking what may be a debatedly mental disorder for some people is normal. Obviously their goal is to normalize it, not just to inform and educate. If their goal was really education they would save it for later years. But no, it needs to be forced onto young children as well.

Agreed.  I mean, no child alive now would know the word 'gay' let alone ever hear about homosexuality in conversation, news, tv programs, etc ..  nope, totally impossible without a teacher to teach it....

[Tom Bishop]

LGBT+ includes a wide range of behaviors and is simply not settled science. Schoolteachers are not qualified to tell children that being asexual is normal. It may be related to health conditions, lack of nutrition, experience, or poor environment.

[Dr David Thork]

Holy shit. Why are the GOP such fucking snowflakes?  Haven’t they figured out yet that kids can’t catch the gay?  Teaching kids about the existence of sexual orientation and non binary gender identity is crucial for the mental health of kids who might identify as LGBTQ+ 

Discussing homosexuality with children is a gateway to child sexual abuse. Such discussions should only be instigated by parents. Teachers should not be talking to children about sex - especially gay sex. Why would you want a 40 year old man that you barely know, talking to your little boy about gay sex? Yet another example of liberal ideology over practicality.

[Rama Set]

I’m not sure what Tom and Thork think early childhood sex ed consists of, but they clearly don’t have any idea of what actually happens. My son has really only learned that people are diverse and that it’s not abnormal to have feelings for people of the same sex. He is in grade 5. Nothing about being transgender and nothing about the mechanics of sex of any variety.

[Dr David Thork]

My son has really only learned that people are diverse and that it’s not abnormal to have feelings for people of the same sex. He is in grade 5.

So before he has even begun puberty, you are ramming ideas about being queer into his head. Poor little guy. He is likely interested in Fortnite and playing outside with his friends. Now he wondering why a large hairy man would have feelings for him.

Its not right. You know it isn't right. In all of human history, no people's taught their kids that growing up to be gay was a good idea. But of course you and your frothy mouthed cohort of do-gooders know best as usual. 

You are busy thinking about yourself and what makes you happy. Not what is best for your son.

[Lord Dave]

My son has really only learned that people are diverse and that it’s not abnormal to have feelings for people of the same sex. He is in grade 5.

So before he has even begun puberty, you are ramming ideas about being queer into his head. Poor little guy. He is likely interested in Fortnite and playing outside with his friends. Now he wondering why a large hairy man would have feelings for him.

Its not right. You know it isn't right. In all of human history, no people's taught their kids that growing up to be gay was a good idea. But of course you and your frothy mouthed cohort of do-gooders know best as usual. 

You are busy thinking about yourself and what makes you happy. Not what is best for your son.

Pretty sure the greeks thought it was ok.
Oh and English theater had only men for centuries.  So those steamy kissy scenes were two dudes.

And being taught facts about human life isn't wrong.  As long as the teacher doesn't try to convince their students that they ARE gay, its fine.

Its like being taught that there are homophobic people in the world. 

[Lord Dave]

LGBT+ includes a wide range of behaviors and is simply not settled science. Schoolteachers are not qualified to tell children that being asexual is normal. It may be related to health conditions, lack of nutrition, experience, or poor environment.

....

You do know that asexual means a lack of sexual attraction or low interest in sex of any kind.  Right?  And yes, it could be related to other health conditions, such as depression.  Or its just asexuality.  Either way, its also ok.  Its ok to be depressed.  Its ok to ask for help.  If you are depressed and suffer from depression, that does not make you a freak or any less human. 

That is what "Its ok" means.  Not "You don't need to get help" but "Its ok to be sick if you're sick."

Tho in this case, not having sexual attraction is also perfecty fine.  Some people just are.  But if other shit is going on, then maybe see a doctor.  Otherwise, who the fuck cares?

See Education is about learning what is or isn't there and knowing what is or isn't ok.
Being gay?  That's ok.  Some people are.
Being Asexual, bisexual, trans?  Also ok.  Some people are.
Being an asshole?  Racist?  Homophobic?  Not ok.  Some people are and those people usually lash out and attack the people they hate.


Remember what Yoda teaches us.

[Tom Bishop]

Not "You don't need to get help" but "Its ok to be sick if you're sick."

That's terrible advice for people who are sick.

[Dr David Thork]

Pretty sure the greeks thought it was ok.

No, they didn't. Provide a source.

Oh and English theater had only men for centuries.  So those steamy kissy scenes were two dudes.

And children didn't go to the theatre. 

And being taught facts about human life isn't wrong.  As long as the teacher doesn't try to convince their students that they ARE gay, its fine.

Teachers are encouraging children to be gay. Telling them to consider it. They likely never have until that point.

Its like being taught that there are homophobic people in the world.

Good job men like you are around to talk to young children about gay sex. 


Your formative years are just that. Formative. You aren't born having any sexuality. You aren't thinking about sex until you hit puberty. Now in the same way as a serial killer might become so because of a childhood experience killing small animals for fun, being gay is the same. If a teacher suddenly starts inserting ideas about how you can be together with someone of the same sex, as a kid you are going to think "What me and my best friend? Great, we can play playstation together forever. Maybe me and John should be gay. He's my best friend. I'll ask equally confused John if he wants to hold hands." And the second that happens the teacher is saying how good they both are and that the class should clap them and accept them. That's a formative moment. Now maybe your kid should kiss John. People wildly approve. And that will ruin your kid's life.

I wouldn't wish being gay on anyone.

The myth that they get married and live happily ever after. No they don't they all get left on their own once they lose their looks and no one wants to f*ck them in the arse anymore.
The myth that they will be happy. No, you'll have no family and you'll be on your own.
The myth that there is no risk. Its highly risky and every new sexual encounter brings the risk of assault or disease.
The myth that it is all about love. No, its about hedonism and lust and if you won't let the guy you just met shove his fist up your backside to appease his every titillation, he'll move on and find someone who will.

Being gay is awful. Why liberals keep lying about this and saying how its exactly the same and just great is only in their heads. I know a bunch of gays, now in their mid-40s and they are all miserable. Utterly invisible to other gays now they are older and they are all depressed. You should make sure your child's formative sexual moments are all about hetronormal relationships with mommies and daddies and babies. And not with leather clad perverts in the toilets of a filthy bar in your city.

[Lord Dave]

Not "You don't need to get help" but "Its ok to be sick if you're sick."

That's terrible advice for people who are sick.

No... its not.
mental illness is a styigma.  If someone has say... Bipolar disorder, and you tell them "Its not ok that you have bipolar.  You should stop being bipolar" well... that's terrible advice.  But accepting that they have Bipolar and that it's ok they have it, and encouraging them to get help is also good.

I mean, except for you.
If you're sick like with the flu, you shouldn't be sick.  Its completely unacceptable for YOU to ever be sick.  Should you be sick, even a sniffle, you should be shunned from society like the filthy, disease ridden human you are.

[Lord Dave]

Pretty sure the greeks thought it was ok.

No, they didn't. Provide a source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece

Oh and English theater had only men for centuries.  So those steamy kissy scenes were two dudes.

And children didn't go to the theatre. 

Not sure your point.  They did and they saw it.  They knew it was two guys and as you can see, all of England didn't become gay.

And being taught facts about human life isn't wrong.  As long as the teacher doesn't try to convince their students that they ARE gay, its fine.

Teachers are encouraging children to be gay. Telling them to consider it. They likely never have until that point.

Pretty sure they aren't.  Not unless a student comes to them and say "I'm fantasizing about my same sex classmate... am I gay?"  But I'd be happy to see your source for that one.

Its like being taught that there are homophobic people in the world.

Good job men like you are around to talk to young children about gay sex. 

We've talked to my 7 year old son about it.  Saying that some people's "partner" (The word for boyfriend and girlfriend in norwegian is the same: kjæreste) are sometimes the same gender.  And that's ok.

You aren't born having any sexuality.

You are, actually.  Or rather the hardwired bits are in your brain already, waiting to be activated.  Children gender identify fairly early.
https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/Pages/Gender-Identity-and-Gender-Confusion-In-Children.aspx

You aren't thinking about sex until you hit puberty. Now in the same way as a serial killer might become so because of a childhood experience killing small animals for fun, being gay is the same. If a teacher suddenly starts inserting ideas about how you can be together with someone of the same sex, as a kid you are going to think "What me and my best friend? Great, we can play playstation together forever. Maybe me and John should be gay. He's my best friend. I'll ask equally confused John if he wants to hold hands." And the second that happens the teacher is saying how good they both are and that the class should clap them and accept them. That's a formative moment. Now maybe your kid should kiss John. People wildly approve. And that will ruin your kid's life.

.... Do you think people choos to be gay?  Do you think its as simple as just getting enough social acceptance or likes on facebook and suddenly you're gay?  Tell me, when did you decide you were straight and not gay?  Did your mom and day say "Son... remember, you aren't gay, ok?  You like girls."
Probably not.  (I mean, I dunno... you could have been told that.)
Being Gay is hardwired.  Just like being straight is.  If I paid you a billion pounds to have sex with a man, would that make you gay?  No.  If I told you to enjoy it, could you?  Nope.  You're not gay(as far as I know).  You have no desire to be with men (far as I know).  And no amount of pressure or social acceptance is going to change that.  For you, it'll always feel wrong. Weird.  Unusual.

In your example, you assume that you and John enjoy it.  They like it.  It feels natural.
It won't.  Formative years can do alot of things, such as force you to suppress such feelings.  Force you to find a woman, get married, have kids... all the while fantasizing about John while you fuck her.  Because its wrong to be gay and if you're gay you're sick, a freak of nature, immoral, etc....
But it doesn't make those feelings go away.  You just keep them buried.  Buying quickies in the mens room while you help pass laws to make being gay illegal.

I wouldn't wish being gay on anyone.

Good thing you can't make someone gay with a wish then.

The myth that they get married and live happily ever after. No they don't they all get left on their own once they lose their looks and no one wants to f*ck them in the arse anymore.
The myth that they will be happy. No, you'll have no family and you'll be on your own.
The myth that there is no risk. Its highly risky and every new sexual encounter brings the risk of assault or disease.
The myth that it is all about love. No, its about hedonism and lust and if you won't let the guy you just met shove his fist up your backside to appease his every titillation, he'll move on and find someone who will.

Being gay is awful. Why liberals keep lying about this and saying how its exactly the same and just great is only in their heads. I know a bunch of gays, now in their mid-40s and they are all miserable. Utterly invisible to other gays now they are older and they are all depressed. You should make sure your child's formative sexual moments are all about hetronormal relationships with mommies and daddies and babies. And not with leather clad perverts in the toilets of a filthy bar in your city.

Who the hell do you talk to?  Being gay is no different than being straight when it comes to relationships.  How many single mid-40s men do you see being happy?  Hell, how many married mid-40s men are happy?  Haven't you ever heard of a mid-life crisis?  Geeze...
Literally everything you wrote applies to any couple of any configuration.  gay, bi, lesbian, moron harem, BDSM relationships, etc...

Fuck... how many men, straight men, expect the woman to put out or they'll walk away?  Answer: Depends on how despirate said man is but most if not all hope.  God... it's like you assume being straight has none of those exact same things happen.

Well sorry to burst your bubble, but they do.  Alot.  42% alot, in fact.  So maybe you shouldn't be throwing stones at everyone else's glass house while you're inside your own eh?

[Rama Set]

This thread is a perfect example of why people need educating about LGBTQ+ issues. Tom and Thork sound like every misconception that has been left behind by medicine and sociology about 40 years ago.

[Tom Bishop]

No... its not.
mental illness is a styigma.  If someone has say... Bipolar disorder, and you tell them "Its not ok that you have bipolar.  You should stop being bipolar" well... that's terrible advice.  But accepting that they have Bipolar and that it's ok they have it, and encouraging them to get help is also good.

"It's okay to be bi-polar... but also... it's not, get help."

I'm sure you are an excellent authority figure for children.

[Rama Set]

No... its not.
mental illness is a styigma.  If someone has say... Bipolar disorder, and you tell them "Its not ok that you have bipolar.  You should stop being bipolar" well... that's terrible advice.  But accepting that they have Bipolar and that it's ok they have it, and encouraging them to get help is also good.

"It's okay to be bi-polar... but also... it's not, get help."

I'm sure you are an excellent authority figure for children.

Indeed you will find that it’s beneficial to one’s mental health not to shame them for things out of their control. Once your algorithm progresses you will understand.

[Tom Bishop]

No... its not.
mental illness is a styigma.  If someone has say... Bipolar disorder, and you tell them "Its not ok that you have bipolar.  You should stop being bipolar" well... that's terrible advice.  But accepting that they have Bipolar and that it's ok they have it, and encouraging them to get help is also good.

"It's okay to be bi-polar... but also... it's not, get help."

I'm sure you are an excellent authority figure for children.

Indeed you will find that it’s beneficial to one’s mental health not to shame them for things out of their control. Once your algorithm progresses you will understand.

I actually didn't say anything about shaming them.

Dave could simply say: "You're bi-polar? I grew up with several mental conditions myself, probably worse than you. Psychotherapy was a big help for me. You should ask your parents."

No need to lie to them.

[Rama Set]

Oh. Sorry Dave he didn’t LARP the whole scenario for you there, Bom. He was clearly talking about destygmatizing. But yes, running a script by you is super important for the future.