Offline Gulliver

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What do FEers mean by "theory"
« on: August 10, 2014, 10:37:37 PM »
See #7 here: http://mentalfloss.com/article/58254/13-scientific-terms-you-might-be-using-wrong.

Surely FET's "conspiracy theory" isn't really a "theory", right?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 01:14:37 AM by Gulliver »
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
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Re: What doe FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2014, 10:43:36 PM »
Gravity is just a theory. You can't point at some gravity.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: What doe FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2014, 10:54:59 PM »
Gravity is just a theory. You can't point at some gravity.
Why do you say that gravity is just theory? Don't we have Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation to predict how an object will fall? See: http://thehappyscientist.com/science-experiment/gravity-theory-or-law?

Why would I need to "point at some" for there to be a law?
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

Thork

Re: What doe FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2014, 12:12:13 AM »
Evolution is a theory. Its called the theory of evolution. I'm sure you'd go blue in the face convincing people that evolution is fact, but its called a theory as it is not conclusive. The big bang is another theory. Its called the big bang theory. Again, its not proven. Its basically when scientists run out of answers and place their trust in a faith based idea. Normal people would call this religion. But scientists think they are above this and call these ideas 'theory'. Its basically what you believe, without being able to prove it to an idiot on the internet who will complain about ad hominums and logical fallacies and all that other boring crap that 'science' experts spout when they don't like an idea but don't actually have anything to back up their objections.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: What doe FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2014, 01:08:03 AM »
Evolution is a theory. Its called the theory of evolution. I'm sure you'd go blue in the face convincing people that evolution is fact, but its called a theory as it is not conclusive. The big bang is another theory. Its called the big bang theory. Again, its not proven. Its basically when scientists run out of answers and place their trust in a faith based idea. Normal people would call this religion. But scientists think they are above this and call these ideas 'theory'. Its basically what you believe, without being able to prove it to an idiot on the internet who will complain about ad hominums and logical fallacies and all that other boring crap that 'science' experts spout when they don't like an idea but don't actually have anything to back up their objections.
So you can't answer my simple question--just as I expected. When does Science have proof? Science can prove something false, as it does to FET. For example you provided a link to a day's video from the ISS that proves FET false. (Thanks again for that.) Science can never "prove" something true. Only your method,  the zetetic method, without any use of hypothesis, makes claims beyond the reach of contradiction (EnaG, p. 5).
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

Ghost of V

Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2014, 03:05:36 AM »
Everything we know could be wrong, or we could just be misunderstanding things: like gravity. That's why it's a theory.

The moment you start calling gravity a law is the moment science stops making progress.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 03:07:08 AM by Vauxhall »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2014, 03:07:26 AM »
Evolution is a theory. Its called the theory of evolution. I'm sure you'd go blue in the face convincing people that evolution is fact, but its called a theory as it is not conclusive. The big bang is another theory. Its called the big bang theory. Again, its not proven. Its basically when scientists run out of answers and place their trust in a faith based idea. Normal people would call this religion. But scientists think they are above this and call these ideas 'theory'. Its basically what you believe, without being able to prove it to an idiot on the internet who will complain about ad hominums and logical fallacies and all that other boring crap that 'science' experts spout when they don't like an idea but don't actually have anything to back up their objections.

Something that is 99.9999% sure is not conclusive but it's as close as you can get often due to mechanical limitations. This is what you are dealing with with gravity and evolution. You are mistaking the humble admission that nothing is certain with an admission of ignorance. They are not equivalent.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2014, 03:10:22 AM »
Everything we know could be wrong, or we could just be misunderstanding things: like gravity. That's why it's a theory.

The moment you start calling gravity a law is the moment science stops making progress.


That is you misunderstanding the part of gravity that is called a law. Only the mathematical formulation of G•(m1•m2/r^2) is a law. It is extremely accurate to precise tolerances and that will never change. That is the only part that is a law. If it does change, you will likely see a lot of sheepish atheists going to mass.
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Offline Gulliver

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Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2014, 03:36:13 AM »
Everything we know could be wrong, or we could just be misunderstanding things: like gravity. That's why it's a theory.

The moment you start calling gravity a law is the moment science stops making progress.


That is you misunderstanding the part of gravity that is called a law. Only the mathematical formulation of G•(m1•m2/r^2) is a law. It is extremely accurate to precise tolerances and that will never change. That is the only part that is a law. If it does change, you will likely see a lot of sheepish atheists going to mass.
Well said. Keep up the good work.

@Thork and Vx: Science is fine with "everything" could be wrong. Rowbotham and the other zetetics though insist that their conclusions are beyond contradiction. Whether something could be wrong does not make it a theory. Science considers everything open to review, revision, and reconsideration. That's a philosophy Rowbotham and the rest of the zetetics would do well to embrace.
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2014, 04:25:19 AM »
Everything we know could be wrong, or we could just be misunderstanding things: like gravity. That's why it's a theory.

The moment you start calling gravity a law is the moment science stops making progress.


That is you misunderstanding the part of gravity that is called a law. Only the mathematical formulation of G•(m1•m2/r^2) is a law. It is extremely accurate to precise tolerances and that will never change. That is the only part that is a law. If it does change, you will likely see a lot of sheepish atheists going to mass.
Well said. Keep up the good work.

@Thork and Vx: Science is fine with "everything" could be wrong. Rowbotham and the other zetetics though insist that their conclusions are beyond contradiction. Whether something could be wrong does not make it a theory. Science considers everything open to review, revision, and reconsideration. That's a philosophy Rowbotham and the rest of the zetetics would do well to embrace.

I should add that Einstein's GR is also a law.
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Offline Gulliver

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Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2014, 07:48:53 AM »
I should add that Einstein's GR is also a law.
I'm glad you brought that up. GR mixes with FET rather poorly.

FEers elected to solve their problem with standard gravity pulling everything toward the North Pole by postulating the Universal Accelerator, requiring GR. I suspect the secondary reason for the UA was just to be able to bully noobs about the odd vector addition of SR.

The UA creates two insurmountable problems for FET though. First, without RET, there's no evidence to support (or even to require) GR.  Mercury’s orbital precession around the Sun does not exist in FET. Second, the UA requires such large energies (over a centillion joules!) to maintain the acceleration that the FE would have long ago boiled away into plasma based on thermodynamics.

Here's a recent article that explains some of this along with an answer to Tom Bishop's whining about dark matter and dark energy in RET: https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/ask-ethan-49-do-the-cosmic-unknowns-cast-doubt-on-the-big-bang-654f3f9e63a9.
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2014, 08:50:24 AM »
The term "conspiracy theory" exists in its own right in the English language (quite separately from "theory" at this point) and is not a scientific term in any way, shape or form. It does not rely on the scientific meaning of "theory", but rather the colloquial one. Your omission of that fact makes your question somewhat misleading. After all, it doesn't make you "wrong" to correctly identify a butterfly, even if it's not a flying piece of butter, or a fly made of butter, or even an insect that's buttery in colour.

This may be of help:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/conspiracy-theory
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/american-english/theory (note that the scientific use is distinguished, but not the sole accepted use)
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/theory (as above, but also see 1.2)

It is very important to keep in mind that language serves a certain purpose, and that is to facilitate efficient communication. Some words gain very specific meanings (for example "rape", which originally meant "to seize by force" but also "to hasten", is unlikely to be used to mean anything other than forced sexual intercourse), while others become somewhat more general (for example the noun "lock", which used to refer only to a mechanism or enclosure, but has since been extended to include more abstract things like mutexes). Some words may have different meanings depending on which context they're used in ("theory" is a great example here. In theory, it should be clear what is meant by "conspiracy theory", but in practice you chose to misunderstand it).

In other words, no, we're not misusing a scientific term. We're not trying to use a scientific term to begin with, because "conspiracy theory" is not one. Importantly, however, it's a term that's been acknowledged by researchers worldwide, and a term whose meaning is generally not seen as ambiguous, as long as the context in which the words were used is known.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 08:52:08 AM by pizaaplanet »
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Thork

Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2014, 08:57:16 AM »
Some words gain very specific meanings (for example "rape", which originally meant "to seize by force" but also "to hasten", is unlikely to be used to mean anything other than forced sexual intercourse


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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2014, 09:34:12 AM »
I stand by my statement. While it's possible that someone may refer to rapeseed as rape, it's overall unlikely. Also:

Some words may have different meanings depending on which context they're used in

But sure, I should have specified that I was talking about the verb "to rape". Have a pat on the back.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 09:36:18 AM by pizaaplanet »
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Offline Gulliver

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Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2014, 09:59:01 AM »
So I guess I have to repeat the question: What do FEers mean by "theory"?
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline jroa

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Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2014, 10:09:32 AM »
So I guess I have to repeat the question: What do FEers mean by "theory"?

the·o·ry noun \ˈthē-ə-rē, ˈthir-ē\
: an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events

: an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true

: the general principles or ideas that relate to a particular subject

Thork

Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2014, 10:13:07 AM »
So I guess I have to repeat the question: What do FEers mean by "theory"?
What a dummy.

I stand by my statement. While it's possible that someone may refer to rapeseed as rape, it's overall unlikely. Also:

Some words may have different meanings depending on which context they're used in

But sure, I should have specified that I was talking about the verb "to rape". Have a pat on the back.
If you hadn't used the word 'rape' I probably would have ignored anyway. You are always thinking about rape. Don't be rapey, PP. No one likes a rapist.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2014, 10:43:20 AM »
So I guess I have to repeat the question: What do FEers mean by "theory"?

the·o·ry noun \ˈthē-ə-rē, ˈthir-ē\
: an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events

: an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true

: the general principles or ideas that relate to a particular subject
So FEers don't use the word as the referenced article suggests they should. Thanks. I always suspected that FEers left Science out of FET, given its inherent reliance on its conspiracy theory. Now I have confirmation.

Quote from: http://mentalfloss.com/article/58254/13-scientific-terms-you-might-be-using-wrong
According to AMNH’s website, “A theory not only explains known facts; it also allows scientists to make predictions of what they should observe if a theory is true.”
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2014, 03:25:09 PM »
So I guess I have to repeat the question: What do FEers mean by "theory"?
You don't need to repeat it, you need to make it coherent. As it stands, your question, combined with the premises you present, introduces a contradiction. If you really want to beg the question, be my guest, but I wouldn't expect anyone here entertaining it for too long.

After all, a hot dog isn't a dog at all. I knew those NYC vendors left biology out of their trade, those ignorant bastards, them.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 03:27:20 PM by pizaaplanet »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What do FEers mean by "theory"
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2014, 03:55:23 PM »
So I guess I have to repeat the question: What do FEers mean by "theory"?
You don't need to repeat it, you need to make it coherent. As it stands, your question, combined with the premises you present, introduces a contradiction. If you really want to beg the question, be my guest, but I wouldn't expect anyone here entertaining it for too long.

After all, a hot dog isn't a dog at all. I knew those NYC vendors left biology out of their trade, those ignorant bastards, them.

In this thread Thork implied that the definition of the word "theory" used in conjunction with evolution is:

Evolution is a theory. Its called the theory of evolution. I'm sure you'd go blue in the face convincing people that evolution is fact, but its called a theory as it is not conclusive.

But this is clearly an equivocation of the context as intended.  This equivocation of the word "theory" is common, mostly among Creationists, when speaking of evolution.

Rather than ask which one certain people use and dont use, I find it to be more useful to ask that people do not equivocate on the word.
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