About the conspiracy
« on: March 29, 2021, 10:38:38 PM »
Hi
I've been reading about Flat Earth Theory since a long time now and something always baffled me: how such a big scale conspiracy can exist.
According to what I read, the conspiracy exist in order to get some funding tunneled through NASA, to fund who-knows-what projects.
Another thing I found was to keep secret continents outside the "Ice Wall", to exploit their resources.
Whatever the reason, it raises some questions.
Bear with me, it'll be a bit long.

In order to enforce such a conspiracy, you'll need to involve all the astronomers in the world, or, at least, the vast majority of them.
There are approximately 10000 astronomers (https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/6328/how-many-astronomers-are-there-in-the-world-today), so that's already a big number.
But wait, if you want to make everybody believe in a round Earth, you'll need more, like cartographers. I don't know how many there are, but a few thousands is a good guess.
Also, in our modern days, we have planes, so if we don't want the pilots to find out that the maps are cheated, we need to trick the instruments. So, we need the aerospace engineers involved too: +90000 (https://studentscholarships.org/professions/527/employed/aerospace_engineers.php).
So, let's round the total to 100000 people. That's one level.

Because now, we have to involve some politicians too. And all the people to manage the logistics of collecting/transferring the money. Although you can have a large amount of them outside of the conspiracy, that adds some level of complexity which will increase the risk of leaks.

And that's not finished. Until recently, everything related to space was in the hands of a very few agencies: NASA (USA), Roscosmos (Russia), ESA (EU).
But in the past 20 years, new ones were created: JAXA (Japan), CNSA (China), ISRO (India), UAESA (United Arab Emirates)...
And more and more private space companies were created too. In US (SpaceX, Blue Origin...), China (i-Space), even New-Zealand (Rocket Lab).
It add a few thousands more people.

Those national agencies and private companies are launching satellites, so they need their theory correct.
Those satellites provide services, so there has to be a device somewhere. According to some Flat-Earther, satellites don't exist, but they are actually high-altitude balloons. So, it would involve all the people building those balloons too.

If we consider the "continents-beyond-the-Ice-Wall" thing, we have to add all the people transferring whatever comes and go there.

I could continue, but you should see my point, now.
We are speaking of hundred of thousands of people involved to have that conspiracy stay secret, without any leak. For several decades or even centuries, it bring that number to millions, potentially.

You can look at the study in that article to convince yourself how unlikely it would be:
https://www.popsci.com/how-many-minions-can-you-have-before-your-conspiracy-fails/

I find it very hard to believe that, since the Flat Earth Theory exists, nobody could find 1 whistle-blower to expose the Round Earth conspiracy, with some evidences.

I'm not stating that the Flat Earth Hypothesis is false, just that the arguments presented for a Round Earth Conspiracy are, at best, weak.

I'd like to listen to your arguments in favor or against that conspiracy.
Have a good day.

Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2021, 05:45:55 PM »
Hi
I've been reading about Flat Earth Theory since a long time now

You seem to have missed the wiki here!

It does a good job of helping to clear up some of your, common, misconceptions.

The shape of the world has no dependency on "conspiracy" nor does determining the shape of it with certainty.

No conspiracy is required for humanity to be stupid and wrong as it historically always is!  We require no assistance!

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Offline stack

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2021, 06:17:45 PM »
Hi
I've been reading about Flat Earth Theory since a long time now

You seem to have missed the wiki here!

It does a good job of helping to clear up some of your, common, misconceptions.

The shape of the world has no dependency on "conspiracy" nor does determining the shape of it with certainty.

No conspiracy is required for humanity to be stupid and wrong as it historically always is!  We require no assistance!

The wiki calls it a "Space Travel Conspiracy". Specifically: The purpose of NASA is to fake the concept of space travel to further America's militaristic dominance of space.

I don't think you'd get much of an argument that NASA was born out of the militaristic need for ICBM's, perhaps militaristic Space dominance, etc. But the issue with conspiracy is this: If NASA is faking space travel for whatever reason, that, in turn, knocks out any evidence, e.g., imagery, of a globe earth. So as a byproduct of a Space Conspiracy, regardless of motive or intent, the conspiracy renders all evidence from space of a globe earth as false. Which is rather convenient for FE. Because if the Space Conspiracy is not true, the evidence is overwhelming regarding the true shape of the earth.

So, in short, FE has to have the "conspiracy". FE relies tremendously on a "conspiracy" regardless of whether said "conspiracy" is to hide the true shape of the earth or not. So yes, FE is massively dependent on the "conspiracy". Without the "conspiracy" there is definitively no flat earth. But a Globe.


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2021, 06:52:21 PM »
On the Assorted Quotations page there is a former Congressman who says that we should distrust the government by default.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Assorted_Quotations

“ I tell people that they shouldn't believe what the government tells them. Just start with the assumption that it isn't right, it isn't true, and that they are lying to us. ”
                  —Ron Paul, Former American Congressman (Source 1 2)

I don't see how you can convince us that you know any better, and that the government should be trusted by default.

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2021, 07:06:08 PM »
On the Assorted Quotations page there is a former Congressman who says that we should distrust the government by default.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Assorted_Quotations

“ I tell people that they shouldn't believe what the government tells them. Just start with the assumption that it isn't right, it isn't true, and that they are lying to us. ”
                  —Ron Paul, Former American Congressman (Source 1 2)

I don't see how you can convince us that you know any better, and that the government should be trusted by default.

Where did I say the government is to be trusted? I didn't.

Just simply put, FE is massively dependent on a Space Conspiracy. Because if the is no Space Conspiracy, everything we get from space agencies/companies around the world definitively shows the true shape of the earth as a Globe. With a Space Conspiracy, all Globe evidence from space agencies/companies around the world can be dismissed. Simple as that. No where did I say the conspiracy is true or not or one should trust the government or not.

Why you're bringing up a Ron Paul quote about distrusting the Government is a complete non sequitur. It's neither here nor there to what I wrote.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2021, 07:20:49 PM »
That quote has everything to do with it. Since you can't prove that NASA is exploring the solar system it's basically a trust issue.

Ron Paul's point is that the government is already a disreputable conspiracy which lies through its teeth. We could characterize RE space travel as a claim based on the words of liars who work against the people's interests. RE is massively dependent on accepting the words of known liars as fact.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 09:17:13 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2021, 07:34:18 PM »
That quote has everything to do with it. Since you can't prove that NASA is exploring the solar system it's basically a trust issue.

Ron Paul's argument is that the government is already a disreputable conspiracy which lies through its teeth. We could characterize RE space travel as a claim based on the words of liars who work against the people's interests. RE is massively based on accepting the words of known liars as fact and accepting authority.

That's great and all, but has nothing to do with what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that FE is heavily dependent on a Space Conspiracy. FE, conspiracy exists = Dismiss all evidence from space travel/exploration. FE, if conspiracy does not exist, all evidence from space travel/exploration definitively shows a Globe earth.

No where have I said the space conspiracy exists or not. Bottomline, you, FE, absolutely can't trust NASA or any of the space agencies/companies around the world right out of the gate. And absolutely have to have the Space Conspiracy. I don't know how many other ways of stating it.

I guess a question would be, contrary to my thinking, do you think FE can not believe in a Space Conspiracy?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2021, 07:40:06 PM »
That quote has everything to do with it. Since you can't prove that NASA is exploring the solar system it's basically a trust issue.

Ron Paul's argument is that the government is already a disreputable conspiracy which lies through its teeth. We could characterize RE space travel as a claim based on the words of liars who work against the people's interests. RE is massively based on accepting the words of known liars as fact and accepting authority.

That's great and all, but has nothing to do with what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that FE is heavily dependent on a Space Conspiracy. FE, conspiracy exists = Dismiss all evidence from space travel/exploration. FE, if conspiracy does not exist, all evidence from space travel/exploration definitively shows a Globe earth.

No where have I said the space conspiracy exists or not. Bottomline, you, FE, absolutely can't trust NASA or any of the space agencies/companies around the world right out of the gate. And absolutely have to have the Space Conspiracy. I don't know how many other ways of stating it.

I guess a question would be, contrary to my thinking, do you think FE can not believe in a Space Conspiracy?

It's a terminology and perception issue. What you call a conspiracy belief I call skepticism of the words of liars. A belief in a "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theorist" somewhat implies that the government is otherwise good and honest, except for a wayward theory that they are lying about something.

If the government is a group of liars who are prolifically dishonest, then the matter more of basic skepticism against those who lie to us. We don't call the Jews who distrusted Nazi Germany "conspiracy theorists" and "conspiracy believers" because we know that Nazi Germany lied a lot and did a lot of bad things against their people's interests.

So, you are stuck with showing that the government is good and should be trusted by default if you want to prove your perception of the matter.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 09:04:36 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2021, 07:57:59 PM »
That quote has everything to do with it. Since you can't prove that NASA is exploring the solar system it's basically a trust issue.

Ron Paul's argument is that the government is already a disreputable conspiracy which lies through its teeth. We could characterize RE space travel as a claim based on the words of liars who work against the people's interests. RE is massively based on accepting the words of known liars as fact and accepting authority.

That's great and all, but has nothing to do with what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that FE is heavily dependent on a Space Conspiracy. FE, conspiracy exists = Dismiss all evidence from space travel/exploration. FE, if conspiracy does not exist, all evidence from space travel/exploration definitively shows a Globe earth.

No where have I said the space conspiracy exists or not. Bottomline, you, FE, absolutely can't trust NASA or any of the space agencies/companies around the world right out of the gate. And absolutely have to have the Space Conspiracy. I don't know how many other ways of stating it.

I guess a question would be, contrary to my thinking, do you think FE can not believe in a Space Conspiracy?

Nope. It's a terminology issue. What you call belief in a conspiracy I call a skepticism of the words of liars.

A belief in a "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theorist" implies that the government is otherwise good and honest, except for a wayward theory that they are lying about something.

If the government is a group of liars who are prolifically dishonest, then the matter more of basic skepticism against those who lie to us. We don't call the Jews who distrusted Nazi Germany "conspiracy theorists" because we know that Nazi Germany lied a lot and did a lot of bad things against their people's interests.

Who calls the Jews who distrusted Nazi Germany conspiracy theorists? No one.

So, you are stuck with proving that the government should be trusted by default if you want to prove your perception of the matter.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I guess maybe you should change the wiki from "There is a Space Travel Conspiracy" to something like, There is Space Travel skepticism if you're hung up on me using the terminology that you yourself use.

I'm not even remotely arguing whether there is a space conspiracy or not. I'm simply asking you the question, do you think FE can not believe in a Space Conspiracy?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2021, 08:04:32 PM »
The Jews who were skeptical of the Nazi actions and activities building up to the holocaust fled the country are celebrated. Although Nazi Germany was a massive conspiracy of propaganda, the Jews who fled are not called conspiracy theorists.

We now describe Nazi Germany as a conspiracy without describing the Jews as "conspiracy theorists" or "conspiracy believers".

The usage of conspiracy as a descriptive matter for Nazi Germany is appropriate, and is how it is used in the Wiki for the conspiracy. The labeling of of a "conspiracy believer" or a "conspiracy theorist" or "FE'ers are conspiracy believers" is mostly something that the RE are trying to tar things with on this subject, since the people who visit the forum have come here to troll.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 04:33:28 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2021, 08:12:20 PM »
The Jews who were skeptical of the Nazi actions and activities building up to the holocaust fled the country are celebrated. Although Nazi Germany was a massive conspiracy of propaganda, the Jews who fled are not called conspiracy theorists.

We can describe Nazi Germany as a conspiracy without describing the Jews as "conspiracy theorists" or "conspiracy believers". That is just something that you guys are trying to tar things with on this subject, since you guys tend to be dishonest RE trolls.

Wow, are you even reading what I wrote? Your own wiki says there is a "Space Travel Conspiracy". Which, I don't know, call me crazy, but tends to lead one to think that FEr's are believers, for lack of a better term, in a "Space Travel Conspiracy" considering your FE wiki says there is a "Space Travel Conspiracy".

So I'm simply asking you the question, do you think FE can not believe in a Space Conspiracy, Space skepticism, whatever you want to call it?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2021, 08:16:42 PM »
Your own wiki says there is a "Space Travel Conspiracy"

Yes, it does. And Nazi Germany was a massive conspiracy of propaganda. That is descriptive against the entity. But people who were skeptical of Nazi Germany are not called "Conspiracy believers" or "conspiracy theorists", and nor would anyone say "the Jews believed in a government conspiracy". That is labeling and insulting. You absolutely know what you are doing, and I think that you are a poor person for it.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 08:34:43 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Elyn95

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2021, 08:17:58 PM »
That quote has everything to do with it. Since you can't prove that NASA is exploring the solar system it's basically a trust issue.

Ron Paul's argument is that the government is already a disreputable conspiracy which lies through its teeth. We could characterize RE space travel as a claim based on the words of liars who work against the people's interests. RE is massively based on accepting the words of known liars as fact and accepting authority.

That's great and all, but has nothing to do with what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that FE is heavily dependent on a Space Conspiracy. FE, conspiracy exists = Dismiss all evidence from space travel/exploration. FE, if conspiracy does not exist, all evidence from space travel/exploration definitively shows a Globe earth.

No where have I said the space conspiracy exists or not. Bottomline, you, FE, absolutely can't trust NASA or any of the space agencies/companies around the world right out of the gate. And absolutely have to have the Space Conspiracy. I don't know how many other ways of stating it.

I guess a question would be, contrary to my thinking, do you think FE can not believe in a Space Conspiracy?

Nope. It's a terminology issue. What you call belief in a conspiracy I call a skepticism of the words of liars.

A belief in a "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theorist" implies that the government is otherwise good and honest, except for a wayward theory that they are lying about something.

If the government is a group of liars who are prolifically dishonest, then the matter more of basic skepticism against those who lie to us. We don't call the Jews who distrusted Nazi Germany "conspiracy theorists" because we know that Nazi Germany lied a lot and did a lot of bad things against their people's interests.

Who calls the Jews who distrusted Nazi Germany conspiracy theorists? No one.

So, you are stuck with proving that the government should be trusted by default if you want to prove your perception of the matter.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I guess maybe you should change the wiki from "There is a Space Travel Conspiracy" to something like, There is Space Travel skepticism if you're hung up on me using the terminology that you yourself use.

I'm not even remotely arguing whether there is a space conspiracy or not. I'm simply asking you the question, do you think FE can not believe in a Space Conspiracy?

I think there's another aspect to this that you're missing. A global conspiracy does not require a vast number of willing participants, only a select number need know the full extent, and feed snippets of information to those who work beneath them. For example: within Nasa even, it is perfectly possible to emply hundreds of technicians who simply operate within the mathematical parameters handed down to them and never see the active results of their work with their own eyes. Consider a multinational company like Amazon: do you think the employees have the faintest idea of what Jeff Bezos is planning, just because they work at Amazon? Do we look at the amazon delivery driver and berate them for being part of an abusive multinational? No, we strive to improve their working conditions and to empower them. In the same way, we should try to empower all those who think that they are working for an honest employer but who are really working for a corrupt one. Like Nasa.
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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2021, 08:36:31 PM »
That quote has everything to do with it. Since you can't prove that NASA is exploring the solar system it's basically a trust issue.

Ron Paul's argument is that the government is already a disreputable conspiracy which lies through its teeth. We could characterize RE space travel as a claim based on the words of liars who work against the people's interests. RE is massively based on accepting the words of known liars as fact and accepting authority.

That's great and all, but has nothing to do with what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that FE is heavily dependent on a Space Conspiracy. FE, conspiracy exists = Dismiss all evidence from space travel/exploration. FE, if conspiracy does not exist, all evidence from space travel/exploration definitively shows a Globe earth.

No where have I said the space conspiracy exists or not. Bottomline, you, FE, absolutely can't trust NASA or any of the space agencies/companies around the world right out of the gate. And absolutely have to have the Space Conspiracy. I don't know how many other ways of stating it.

I guess a question would be, contrary to my thinking, do you think FE can not believe in a Space Conspiracy?

Nope. It's a terminology issue. What you call belief in a conspiracy I call a skepticism of the words of liars.

A belief in a "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theorist" implies that the government is otherwise good and honest, except for a wayward theory that they are lying about something.

If the government is a group of liars who are prolifically dishonest, then the matter more of basic skepticism against those who lie to us. We don't call the Jews who distrusted Nazi Germany "conspiracy theorists" because we know that Nazi Germany lied a lot and did a lot of bad things against their people's interests.

Who calls the Jews who distrusted Nazi Germany conspiracy theorists? No one.

So, you are stuck with proving that the government should be trusted by default if you want to prove your perception of the matter.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I guess maybe you should change the wiki from "There is a Space Travel Conspiracy" to something like, There is Space Travel skepticism if you're hung up on me using the terminology that you yourself use.

I'm not even remotely arguing whether there is a space conspiracy or not. I'm simply asking you the question, do you think FE can not believe in a Space Conspiracy?

I think there's another aspect to this that you're missing. A global conspiracy does not require a vast number of willing participants, only a select number need know the full extent, and feed snippets of information to those who work beneath them. For example: within Nasa even, it is perfectly possible to emply hundreds of technicians who simply operate within the mathematical parameters handed down to them and never see the active results of their work with their own eyes. Consider a multinational company like Amazon: do you think the employees have the faintest idea of what Jeff Bezos is planning, just because they work at Amazon? Do we look at the amazon delivery driver and berate them for being part of an abusive multinational? No, we strive to improve their working conditions and to empower them. In the same way, we should try to empower all those who think that they are working for an honest employer but who are really working for a corrupt one. Like Nasa.

That's all fine and good and a common argument. And if that's what you want to believe across all the space agencies/companies/contract companies of the world and perhaps that they all fall under the umbrella, guise, and dominion of NASA and only a few would have to be "in on it", and the other 10's of thousands of engineers, scientists and such are just handed the tasks and math they need and don't question it, fine.

But my question is can an FE proponent not believe in the "Space Travel Conspiracy" as defined in the wiki?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2021, 09:10:14 PM »
A few points of order:
  • You really, really, really don't need to include the entire thread's history in your quotes. Please don't. A cursory look at your own post should do it. Does what you posted look much smaller than what you've quoted? If so, fix your post. If you can't stop yourself, just don't use the quote function.
  • Avoiding derogatory terms should be a common sense request, and doesn't warrant a massive off-topic debate. Stack, I understand that you don't find the term derogatory. Your conversation partner informed you that he does. Exercise common sense.

But my question is can an FE proponent not believe in the "Space Travel Conspiracy" as defined in the wiki?
Of course. Many FE'ers accept that the space travel folk may simply be mistaken.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2021, 09:20:18 PM »
But my question is can an FE proponent not believe in the "Space Travel Conspiracy" as defined in the wiki?
Of course. Many FE'ers accept that the space travel folk may simply be mistaken.
Do what? So the astronauts and space tourists who have been to the ISS just think they're orbiting a globe earth when they aren't really?
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2021, 09:26:50 PM »
Do what? So the astronauts and space tourists who have been to the ISS just think they're orbiting a globe earth when they aren't really?
Something along those lines, yes.
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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2021, 09:37:20 PM »
A few points of order:
  • You really, really, really don't need to include the entire thread's history in your quotes. Please don't. A cursory look at your own post should do it. Does what you posted look much smaller than what you've quoted? If so, fix your post. If you can't stop yourself, just don't use the quote function.
  • Avoiding derogatory terms should be a common sense request, and doesn't warrant a massive off-topic debate. Stack, I understand that you don't find the term derogatory. Your conversation partner informed you that he does. Exercise common sense.

Which term is derogatory? "Conspiracy"? It's used in the wiki associated with Space Travel. I'm not following.

But my question is can an FE proponent not believe in the "Space Travel Conspiracy" as defined in the wiki?
Of course. Many FE'ers accept that the space travel folk may simply be mistaken.

It never occurred to me that anyone thought NASA and everyone else could just be "mistaken". If they are "mistaken" NASA and other agencies/companies are willfully altering their math and imagery to that of the incorrect shape, a Globe. If so, they would be conspiring to hide the fact that they are mistaken as all that is presented must be doctored in some way. No?

So I guess in rephrasing the question, can an FE proponent not believe that NASA, et al, is mistaken or conspiring?

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2021, 09:44:59 PM »
Do what? So the astronauts and space tourists who have been to the ISS just think they're orbiting a globe earth when they aren't really?
Something along those lines, yes.

Can you expand on that Pete? That's a massive, massive statement. Roughly 550 people are recorded as having been into space. So you're saying that, aside from those participating in the conspiracy, a large chunk of them were somehow duped? How on earth could you simulate space? The life-changing enormity of the view...the endless 0g conditions with all the effects on the human body etc? Even today, in 2021 we don't have the tech to do that, let alone 1960 or 1980 or whenever.

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2021, 10:22:10 PM »
Which term is derogatory? [...] I'm not following.
Tom explained it in quite some detail, and you will not continue derailing this thread with your trolling.

So you're saying that, aside from those participating in the conspiracy, a large chunk of them were somehow duped?
I'm not saying anything of the sort. I simply pointed out that people with this viewpoint exist.

So I guess in rephrasing the question, can an FE proponent not believe that NASA, et al, is mistaken or conspiring?
Probably. Who are you (or I, for that matter) to prohibit it?
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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