[stevecanuck]

As an spin-off of my last thread, it occurred to me that for UA to work, three factors have to exist:

1. The force pushing the earth "upward" has to be at EXACTLY 90° to the surface of the earth to create straight-down pseudo gravity.
2 and 3. The earth would have to be perfectly symmetrical AND perfectly balanced in terms of weigh distribution* on the surface to keep it from wobbling and thereby throwing us all over the place.

Since the likelihood of that happening in nature is probably zero, the only thing that leaves is ID. We are an ant farm.

* The problems with creating perfect weight balance on the surface are legion. The weight of the oceans and land masses have to be distributed PERFECTLY evenly, or it's Weeble time. Any flat earth flat would have to reflect that fact, and that's impossible. The entire FE story turns to tatters when examined carefully.

[Clyde Frog]

That's not a far stretch from something theists of various flavors like to argue, about how the fine tuning of the universe also implies intelligent design. You can just as easily invoke something like the anthropic principle, we find the universe is the way it is because if it wasn't, we wouldn't be around to think about it.

[Dr David Thork]

That's not a far stretch from something theists of various flavors like to argue, about how the fine tuning of the universe also implies intelligent design. You can just as easily invoke something like the anthropic principle, we find the universe is the way it is because if it wasn't, we wouldn't be around to think about it.

That's like saying my car works and cars wouldn't exist if internal combustion didn't work. That doesn't mean BMW didn't sit down and design your car and that instead your car was just forced into existence because cars are a thing and therefore must exist. Just because the conditions for you to exist happen to be so, doesn't mean you weren't designed to live in those conditions.

Also ... imagine being a fluke on a tiny speck of dust whose insignificant life is over in the blink of an eye? No wonder so many atheists are depressed all the time.

Atheist


Also Atheist




I can't find it, but Dennis Prager once said something that struck me as profound. If was something along the lines of "Atheists are ingrates. And spend the rest of their life unhappy because they are unable to say thank you for my life".

... I'd rather just have my sky fairy and be happy.

[stack]

That's not a far stretch from something theists of various flavors like to argue, about how the fine tuning of the universe also implies intelligent design. You can just as easily invoke something like the anthropic principle, we find the universe is the way it is because if it wasn't, we wouldn't be around to think about it.

That's like saying my car works and cars wouldn't exist if internal combustion didn't work. That doesn't mean BMW didn't sit down and design your car and that instead your car was just forced into existence because cars are a thing and therefore must exist. Just because the conditions for you to exist happen to be so, doesn't mean you weren't designed to live in those conditions.

Also ... imagine being a fluke on a tiny speck of dust whose insignificant life is over in the blink of an eye? No wonder so many atheists are depressed all the time.

Atheist


Also Atheist

Completely out of context and not even relevant. The quote was in regard to his bi-polar depression, not his atheism. But I suppose you think theists never suffer from depression.

I can't find it, but Dennis Prager once said something that struck me as profound. If was something along the lines of "Atheists are ingrates. And spend the rest of their life unhappy because they are unable to say thank you for my life".

... I'd rather just have my sky fairy and be happy.

Dennis Prager also testified in 1996 that "the acceptance of homosexuality as the equal of heterosexual marital love signifies the decline of Western civilization." Seems like his profoundness is extremely narrow and relegated to only what his hard right religious notions will allow. Otherwise known as a bigot.

[Dr David Thork]

When you squeal wascist or bogit or reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! you are failing to provide a counter argument.

Also there are many links to decadence and the decline of empires and civilisations. Homosexuality becoming publicly acceptable is usually a harbinger of awful things to come. That's just a historical fact and facts don't care about your feelings.

Completely out of context and not even relevant. The quote was in regard to his bi-polar depression, not his atheism. But I suppose you think theists never suffer from depression.

It is utterly relevant. Every single civilisation, tribe and people through all time anywhere on earth have been religious. There is no atheist success story anywhere. You could be a pygmy in a rainforest or a medieval African. You believe in god/gods. We are utterly hard wired to believe in a creator. It is likely an evolutionary coping mechanism so you don't keep getting depressed and kill yourself. Suspend belief, believe there is more to life and get more out of life. As human brains evolved and people realised their own mortality ... evolve ... be susceptible to belief in things you cannot see hear or touch. It'll give you an advantage.

the question "Is there a God?" is very easy to answer. Because of the two choices one leads to futility, loneliness, fear and misery. And the other allows you to get the most out of the gift of life you were given. Is there a God? Yes. Only an idiot would arrive at the answer no ... and like Fry, would spend the rest of their life paying for that error.

Even famous atheist and philosopher Terry Pratchett (who had magnificent views on earth's shape) understood this.

Susan: “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."
Death: REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
Susan: "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"
Death: YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
Susan: "So we can believe the big ones?"
Death: YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
Susan: "They're not the same at all!"
Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET — Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
Susan: "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"
Death: MY POINT EXACTLY.

[stack]

When you squeal wascist or bogit or reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! you are failing to provide a counter argument.

Also there are many links to decadence and the decline of empires and civilisations. Homosexuality becoming publicly acceptable is usually a harbinger of awful things to come. That's just a historical fact and facts don't care about your feelings.

What's your counter argument? Evidence such as?

Completely out of context and not even relevant. The quote was in regard to his bi-polar depression, not his atheism. But I suppose you think theists never suffer from depression.

It is utterly relevant. Every single civilisation, tribe and people through all time anywhere on earth have been religious. There is no atheist success story anywhere. You could be a pygmy in a rainforest or a medieval African. You believe in god/gods. We are utterly hard wired to believe in a creator. It is likely an evolutionary coping mechanism so you don't keep getting depressed and kill yourself. Suspend belief, believe there is more to life and get more out of life. As human brains evolved and people realised their own mortality ... evolve ... be susceptible to belief in things you cannot see hear or touch. It'll give you an advantage.

the question "Is there a God?" is very easy to answer. Because of the two choices one leads to futility, loneliness, fear and misery. And the other allows you to get the most out of the gift of life you were given. Is there a God? Yes. Only an idiot would arrive at the answer no ... and like Fry, would spend the rest of their life paying for that error.

That's all very odd. I have no sense of futility, loneliness, fear and misery. How would you know that all humans who don't believe in a God or Gods suffer from futility, loneliness, fear and misery. How did you become an authority on all of humanities belief systems and how they feel? You come across as miserable and lonely most of the time yet I don't run around saying all people who believe in God are lonely and miserable.

[Dr David Thork]

Think of all the people throughout history. Vikings. Romans. Gauls. Normans. Aztecs. Koreans. Africans. Native Americans. Literally any group of people from anywhere in history. Give me just one example of a civilisation that rose up as atheist.

You will draw a blank. You cannot be civilised without religion. It is not possible. There are likely more than a million historical cases studies ... you won't find an atheist anywhere. So why, when you know what works ... when you know what is successful ... would you choose something as stupid as atheism as a way to lead your life?

[stack]

Think of all the people throughout history. Vikings. Romans. Gauls. Normans. Aztecs. Koreans. Africans. Native Americans. Literally any group of people from anywhere in history. Give me just one example of a civilisation that rose up as atheist.

You will draw a blank. You cannot be civilised without religion. It is not possible. There are likely more than a million historical cases studies ... you won't find an atheist anywhere. So why, when you know what works ... when you know what is successful ... would you choose something as stupid as atheism as a way to lead your life?

Buddhism comes pretty close at least in the sense of taking the sort of, "Almighty Creator" bit not so much into account:

"The nonadherence[26] to the notion of a supreme deity or a prime mover is seen by many as a key distinction between Buddhism and other religions. While Buddhist traditions do not deny the existence of supernatural beings (many are discussed in Buddhist scripture), it does not ascribe powers, in the typical Western sense, for creation, salvation or judgement, to the "gods"; however, praying to enlightened deities is sometimes seen as leading to some degree of spiritual merit.

Buddhists accept the existence of beings in higher realms, known as devas, but they, like humans, are said to be suffering in samsara,[27] and not particularly wiser than we are. In fact the Buddha is often portrayed as a teacher of the deities,[28] and superior to them.[29] Despite this they do have some enlightened Devas in the path of buddhahood."

And, historically speaking, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting tons of horrible and atrocious things done in the name of God/Gods. The list is endless.

I don't choose atheism to lead my life. That's another weird misconception. If a belief in a creator makes someone less miserable, why are you so miserable? It doesn't seem to be working that well for you.

And where's your evidence for "Homosexuality becoming publicly acceptable is usually a harbinger of awful things to come. That's just a historical fact..."?

[Clyde Frog]

That's not a far stretch from something theists of various flavors like to argue, about how the fine tuning of the universe also implies intelligent design. You can just as easily invoke something like the anthropic principle, we find the universe is the way it is because if it wasn't, we wouldn't be around to think about it.

<A lot of words>

I really am not sure what you are taking issue with in my post. I'm pointing out that FET doesn't imply intelligent design much more so than RET, as both schools of thought have very fine tuned mechanics that make life as we know it possible.

[scomato]

That's not a far stretch from something theists of various flavors like to argue, about how the fine tuning of the universe also implies intelligent design. You can just as easily invoke something like the anthropic principle, we find the universe is the way it is because if it wasn't, we wouldn't be around to think about it.

<A lot of words>

I really am not sure what you are taking issue with in my post. I'm pointing out that FET doesn't imply intelligent design much more so than RET, as both schools of thought have very fine tuned mechanics that make life as we know it possible.

Conditions for life only appear fine-tuned because we evolved to settle the niche provided to us by our environmental conditions. I don't think Flat Earth holds up to the Anthropic Principle let alone any real observational or investigative evidence. There was life on Earth before there was any Oxygen in the atmosphere. Humanity is just another species of animal that evolved to occupy an environmental niche. Any notion that humanity is special or different or ascended in any way is just ignorant, it's nothing more than anthro-ego.

The thought that our whole world is just a speck of dust trailing a speck of light in a galaxy that is just another speck of light in a vaster web of entwined galaxies, might be depressing. When you understand the scale of the universe you realize how little you matter, how little everything and everyone matters.

For the God-fearing types, it should inspire terror. It would mean God is much, much, much mightier than He is presented in the Bible. It means the effort He invested into the creation and curation of this world, is no different than the effort He invested into the creation and curation of a Trillion other worlds. All with intelligent life and all those without, all part of Gods plan, Quintillions of lives shaped into being by His hand. I can see how this is a hard pill for religious believers to swallow, the God of the Bible is an insignificant powerless speck compared to the true scale of the Universe.

But when nothing matters, you know what that really implies? It doesn't mean that you should kill yourself and get this pointless existence over with. It means that there is no scale of greater or lesser meaning. When nothing matters, all things matter the same. A baby's first words, a black hole consuming a passing star, having lunch with your colleagues, the political affairs of a galactic empire, the breeze through a wheat field, a dog making friends with a kitten, the extinction of all living things - they all matter the same. And I think that is a beautiful way to approach life, and is far from the oppressive nihilism people seem to think plagues atheism.