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Offline Toddler Thork

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Let's do ships again
« on: March 05, 2021, 02:19:40 PM »
Round earthers love a ship on the horizon. What do you all make of this one?



This is from a BBC article here.

Let's pull out the juiciest quotes that when we say them, you all think we are crazy.

A bit of bendy light
Quote from: BBC meteorologist David Braine
BBC meteorologist David Braine said the "superior mirage" occurred because of "special atmospheric conditions that bend light".

A bit of looking out of your window and refusing to believe your own eyes
Quote from: Mr Morris
Mr Morris said he was "stunned" after capturing the picture while looking out to sea from the hamlet of Gillan

Objects appearing both above and below a horizon having absolutely nothing to do with earth being round
Quote from: BBC meteorologist David Braine
"Superior mirages can produce a few different types of images - here a distant ship appears to float high above its actual position, but sometimes an object below the horizon can become visible."


So ... next time I get presented with something like


You are going to receive a short response ... "superior mirages" or in the case of that Toronto image 'inferior mirage". I suggest we cobble a wiki page together on inferior and superior mirages. I'm dead sick of images of mirages on horizons being lauded as proof of roundness.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 02:52:38 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2021, 02:43:06 PM »
What fun! Unfortunately it’s not a mirage, it’s flat calm out near the ship and breeze stirring the water nearer the shore. Look carefully at the ship area and you’ll just make out the faint horizon, the real horizon.

Sorry!   ;D
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2021, 02:48:26 PM »
What fun! Unfortunately it’s not a mirage, it’s flat calm out near the ship and breeze stirring the water nearer the shore. Look carefully at the ship area and you’ll just make out the faint horizon, the real horizon.

Sorry!   ;D

I'll ignore BBC meteorologist David Braine then, and just take your word for it instead.  ::)
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2021, 03:47:27 PM »
I prefer 'doing' ships in front of, or nearer than, the horizon. They tell us more about the shape of the earth.

As regards the OP picture, I suggest anyone/everyone loads it into a photo-editing programme and plays with the levels and colour saturation. I would wager that this will show the true water level next to the ship, regardless of what the BBC's commentary says. I would do it myself, but I'm having issues with my preferred image hosting site at the moment. Maybe later.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 03:51:36 PM by Tumeni »
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Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2021, 06:15:56 PM »
In my personal working definitions of mirage (1. optical illusion that resembles water typically caused by heating of the air near the surface, 2. a hallucination born of desperation/dehydration), this doesn't really qualify - however I am somewhat surprised to see RE supporters claiming this is NOT a mirage.

I think most consider "mirage" to loosely mean "optical illusion", and this is how the majority come to the conclusion that this qualifies.

@Longitube & Tumeni

I think I am clear on what you are both talking about, but not what you are interpreting is happening to cause the effect.  If it isn't a mirage (I agree) then what is it?  Do you not think the ship is in fact beyond the optical/visible horizon at the time the photo was taken?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2021, 06:33:55 PM »
I think I am clear on what you are both talking about, but not what you are interpreting is happening to cause the effect.

Have you tried looking for the horizon by modifying the brightness, contrast et al, with an editing program, as I suggested? If you do, you will see what is happening. The horizon is exactly where you would expect it to be, meeting the hull of the ship.

If it isn't a mirage (I agree) then what is it?

See longitube's explanation. Differing sea conditions close to shore and close to the ship.

Do you not think the ship is in fact beyond the optical/visible horizon at the time the photo was taken?

No.

EDIT - because the horizon, when the photo is enhanced, meets the ship's hull, exactly where you would expect.

EDIT - same effect in this one (https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/813181276461359512/), but because you can see the clouds reflected on the water, it makes the water more obvious. The original post pic has less clouds, so the reflection of the sky on the water is more uniform
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 07:58:07 PM by Tumeni »
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2021, 08:49:57 PM »
Apart from the BBC explanation (much repeated elsewhere) you might find the local explanation interesting:–

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/ship-floating-clouds-cornwall-leaves-5070329

And I'll tell you a secret – the BBC don't get it right every time! You may remember another small mistake by a well-known BBC meteorologist: you might call it the Fish Effect.

You might also have seen another similar report from a Scot in recent days, with a similar explanation:–

https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/viral-man-spots-ship-floating-across-sky-heres-what-happened-2383287

I've seen similar things myself in light wind conditions over the years and it always causes a double-take until looking around at other clues solves the puzzle.
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2021, 10:15:10 PM »
@tumeni & longitube

How would you alter your understanding/description if you were given/took sufficient measurements to confirm that the ship WAS in fact beyond the visible horizon when this picture was taken?

It is my understanding that pictures like this are not unheard of and they are beyond the horizon.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 10:17:18 PM by jack44556677 »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2021, 10:42:38 PM »
How would you alter your understanding/description if you were given/took sufficient measurements to confirm that the ship WAS in fact beyond the visible horizon when this picture was taken?

The question is moot without any such measurements. Have you got any? Any suggestion, since the ship will by now have moved on, how they would be obtained?


It is my understanding that pictures like this are not unheard of and they are beyond the horizon.

Would you care to rephrase this? You appear to be suggesting the pictures are beyond the horizon....
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2021, 11:00:51 PM »
@tumeni & longitube

How would you alter your understanding/description if you were given/took sufficient measurements to confirm that the ship WAS in fact beyond the visible horizon when this picture was taken?

It is my understanding that pictures like this are not unheard of and they are beyond the horizon.

It’s my opinion that the ship is nearer the observer than the horizon in the OP photo, that differing reflections in the water between ship and shore give rise in this case to the optical illusion where the ship appears to be floating in mid-air.

I too have seen examples of superior mirages where the subject of the mirage was beyond the horizon, but long experience leads me in Thork’s example to conclude this ship is relatively near to the photographer.

If someone has other information about this example I’ll happily re-evaluate that, so if you have then I’m all ears.
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2021, 05:30:57 PM »

I've seen a "floating ship" at Sharm El Sheikh (southern tip of the Sinai Peninsula). I believe it's an optical illusion similar to seeing "water" far ahead on the highway. When light passes through one medium (air) and impinges on another (water), it both reflects and refracts (like a stick appears to bend when put into a pond). There comes a point called the critical angle, where the angle of incidence is greater than the angle of refraction, and all the light reflects (none refracts anymore) causing a mirror-like effect (on the highway we see this as water). Just as the "water" on the highway is nothing other than total reflection, so the area appearing to make the ship float is beyond the critical angle and is so perfectly mirror-like as to "disappear" from our view. Hence the ship is "floating" "above" it.

Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2021, 09:20:31 PM »
@steve

Quote
I believe it's an optical illusion similar to seeing "water" far ahead on the highway.

Where is the "false water" (that that mirage causes) in the photo?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 09:22:06 PM by jack44556677 »

Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2021, 09:57:23 PM »
@steve

Quote
I believe it's an optical illusion similar to seeing "water" far ahead on the highway.

Where is the "false water" (that that mirage causes) in the photo?

Just in front of the ship, where the greatest angle of incidence occurs.

Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2021, 09:40:33 AM »
@steve

Quote
I believe it's an optical illusion similar to seeing "water" far ahead on the highway.

Where is the "false water" (that that mirage causes) in the photo?

Just in front of the ship, where the greatest angle of incidence occurs.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2021, 01:47:08 PM »
What fun! Unfortunately it’s not a mirage, it’s flat calm out near the ship and breeze stirring the water nearer the shore. Look carefully at the ship area and you’ll just make out the faint horizon, the real horizon.

To reinforce this with a few illustrations;

If the water is still, the reflection is clear.



If the water is disturbed, it is less clear.



In the OP's case, the water is calm near the ship, and simply reflects the sky. Since the reflection is almost the same colour as the sky, it becomes more difficult to tell sky and sea apart. If there are clear white clouds and blue sky, this task is made easier, but an overal greyish-white melange of clouds does not help.

Regardless of whether lands and sea are globe or flat, I would suggest the observer's view from onshore has disturbed water closer to shore, with still water beyond that and nearer to the ship. This leads to the still water reflecting, and looking like, the sky, making it appear as though the ship is in the sky.

Side on, this would be the geometry of it;



=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2021, 04:09:21 PM »
What fun! Unfortunately it’s not a mirage, it’s flat calm out near the ship and breeze stirring the water nearer the shore. Look carefully at the ship area and you’ll just make out the faint horizon, the real horizon.

To reinforce this with a few illustrations;

If the water is still, the reflection is clear.

If the water is disturbed, it is less clear.

In the OP's case, the water is calm near the ship, and simply reflects the sky. Since the reflection is almost the same colour as the sky, it becomes more difficult to tell sky and sea apart. If there are clear white clouds and blue sky, this task is made easier, but an overal greyish-white melange of clouds does not help.

Regardless of whether lands and sea are globe or flat, I would suggest the observer's view from onshore has disturbed water closer to shore, with still water beyond that and nearer to the ship. This leads to the still water reflecting, and looking like, the sky, making it appear as though the ship is in the sky.

Side on, this would be the geometry of it;


It is not a matter of calm water vs. disturbed water. That only aids the effect; it is not the cause of it. If what you said is true, then a calm pond would be 100% reflective like a mirror, and it isn't. It only happens when the angle of incidence exceeds the critical angle as I explained above. Light that impinges on the surface of the water past the critical angle no longer penetrates the water surface due to it's refractive index. Instead, all of it reflects, which causes the mirror effect. That's why you only see the effect at a distance.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 04:14:44 PM by stevecanuck »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2021, 05:44:51 PM »
Fair enough.

Crop it a bit, switch it to a negative, and the horizon line jumps out;

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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2021, 11:02:03 PM »
Fair enough.

Crop it a bit, switch it to a negative, and the horizon line jumps out;



Yup. The space between the ship and the apparent horizon is where the critical angle creates a mirror. Btw, this would occur on both a FE or a RE.

Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2021, 04:38:44 PM »
@stevecanuck

Same question for you then - if the boat was in fact beyond the visible horizon when this was taken, how would that alter your conception / diagrams?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Let's do ships again
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2021, 07:00:57 PM »
... if the boat was in fact beyond the visible horizon when this was taken, how would that alter your conception / diagrams?

The OP states it was ON the horizon.

I would suggest it was nearer than the horizon, based on my negative reversal showing the horizon.

From here, it would seem that the next move would be for you to either demonstrate that this particular ship was actually beyond the horizon, or provide a picture of one that is, such that we can discuss it or them.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 11:15:48 PM by Tumeni »
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?