Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2021, 07:59:16 PM »
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

Offline scomato

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Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2021, 08:09:24 PM »
The map is an azimuthal projection centered on wherever you happen to be at any given time. The map changes based on the position of the observer.

If you are standing at the North Pole then the Flat Earth looks like this - there is an Antarctic Ice Wall surrounding the Earth.


Standing in Florida the Flat Earth looks like this, the Ice Wall transmorphing itself into a continent based on your changed location:


Standing in Japan it looks like this:


Standing in New Zealand it looks like this - instead of an Antarctic Ice Wall the Earth is now bounded by the Africa and Russia Wall.


Standing at the South Pole it looks like this:

Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2021, 08:11:00 PM »
Okay, so if I can transpose the new Princeton projection onto the southern hemisphere (and I'll need to use Google's North Hemisphere Azi. Proj) and incorporate known distances then we'll have a better map.
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2021, 08:46:07 PM »
SteelyBob,  Brisbane to Perth is the same distance on my map, about 3000 miles  If you look closely, I doubled the size of Australia, to compensate for halving it in the new projection.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 08:47:46 PM by MetaTron »
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2021, 08:57:23 PM »
There are anomalous winds in the southern hemisphere - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

If you are going to try to use travel times to show evidence for a particular model, you need to do better than provide information from an area known to be anomalous.

I used road journeys in my example Tom. The wind doesn't affect them. And I didn't say 'times', I said 'distances'. As in: 'what people measure using their car odometers', for example.

What data did you base your statement on and where can we find it?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2021, 09:40:58 PM »
What data did you base your statement on and where can we find it?

You want evidence to support the distance across australia? I got my figure(s) from google maps, but the point is that the data you get from google, or indeed any other app, is backed up by thousands of people making journeys every day. At the extreme end of the scale, you have people like this:

https://www.tailoredmedia.com.au/blog/the-4-lessons-i-learned-cycling-across-australia-with-my-son/

If the distance wasn't what it was said to be, then their planning simply wouldn't work, would it? And nor would countless others. And every long journey in Australia done by car would trigger an odd mismatch between the planned distance and the reality recorded on the vehicle's odo. In road haulage particularly, those differences would get noticed very quickly.

Are you suggesting that it is not, in fact, about 4800km across Australia as I described?

Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2021, 10:04:32 PM »
So you're telling me of all the hundreds of thousands of FE believers in the world today, none of them is able to draw up a detailed map ?

As Pete has already implied, I am saying nothing about an ability to draw up a detailed map, only (as Pete also says) that there is no consensus on a definitive map.

And thanks for the humour, Pete, it was appreciated.  ;D
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2021, 10:51:11 PM »
What data did you base your statement on and where can we find it?

You want evidence to support the distance across australia? I got my figure(s) from google maps, but the point is that the data you get from google, or indeed any other app, is backed up by thousands of people making journeys every day. At the extreme end of the scale, you have people like this:

https://www.tailoredmedia.com.au/blog/the-4-lessons-i-learned-cycling-across-australia-with-my-son/

If the distance wasn't what it was said to be, then their planning simply wouldn't work, would it? And nor would countless others. And every long journey in Australia done by car would trigger an odd mismatch between the planned distance and the reality recorded on the vehicle's odo. In road haulage particularly, those differences would get noticed very quickly.

Are you suggesting that it is not, in fact, about 4800 km across Australia as I described?

So first you claim to have odometer data, and now you don't have that data after all?

Now you backtrack on that and instead show a link which says that two young people cycled 4800 km in 30 days. Here is another link which says that an elderly grandfather cycled 11,616 km in 30 days.

Doesn't look like you've provided much in the way of solid evidence on this to me.

Also, the shape and size of Australia is different among all of the Flat Earth maps. Which one are you trying to debunk?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 11:03:14 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline stack

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Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2021, 12:08:12 AM »
What data did you base your statement on and where can we find it?

You want evidence to support the distance across australia? I got my figure(s) from google maps, but the point is that the data you get from google, or indeed any other app, is backed up by thousands of people making journeys every day. At the extreme end of the scale, you have people like this:

https://www.tailoredmedia.com.au/blog/the-4-lessons-i-learned-cycling-across-australia-with-my-son/

If the distance wasn't what it was said to be, then their planning simply wouldn't work, would it? And nor would countless others. And every long journey in Australia done by car would trigger an odd mismatch between the planned distance and the reality recorded on the vehicle's odo. In road haulage particularly, those differences would get noticed very quickly.

Are you suggesting that it is not, in fact, about 4800 km across Australia as I described?

So first you claim to have odometer data, and now you don't have that data after all?

Now you backtrack on that and instead show a link which says that two young people cycled 4800 km in 30 days. Here is another link which says that an elderly grandfather cycled 11,616 km in 30 days.

Doesn't look like you've provided much in the way of solid evidence on this to me.

Also, the shape and size of Australia is different among all of the Flat Earth maps. Which one are you trying to debunk?

Are you saying humans don't yet know the size of Australia?

Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2021, 12:22:46 AM »
Journeybeyondrail.com.au. 

The Company quotes a distance of 4352 km from Sydney (East coast) to Perth (West coast) via Adelaide on its Indian Pacific rail service.  One imagines that they know how much track they laid. 

I don't know if locomotives have odometers, but they definitely have speedometers and clocks, and have some resistance to anomalous winds. 

And as for which Flat Map is to be debunked, I think we should wait for nominations from the many that are available.

Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2021, 07:56:48 AM »
I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused.

Is this the map? And if so, how am I supposed to read this? That there is a "top" and "bottom" half of the flat earth ?

https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps offers a lot of varying high-level sketches of the Flat-Earth.
Without at least a general concensus I'd just be checking one person's view of the Flat Earth.
I'm not sure which map to use though. And I'm unable to perform even educated guess-measurements on distances on the sketched versions of course.

From the link, the last 2 seem to make most sense in terms of layout. (Though it'd then be impossible to have a flight time of 11 hours from the US to Japan, when flying from most of Western-Europe to Japan takes the same time, sometimes more, even though that is half the distance.)

I've come to understand there is not a singular map I can look at, based on responses.
But it made me wonder, if there is no such map, how do Flat Earthers navigate the globe ? Doing a sailing trip, or flying with your personal plane long distances.

Again, if anyone can give me a more accurate map, showing at least capitals on it, I'd be grateful.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2021, 08:41:03 AM »
So first you claim to have odometer data, and now you don't have that data after all?

No, I didn't say that, did I Tom? I said:

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If it wasn't, for example, about 4800km by road from Brisbane to Perth, then we would know about it because lots of people would be pointing out that their odometers bore no resemblance to the distance predicted by google, or waze, or their old-fashioned road atlas.

Now you backtrack on that and instead show a link which says that two young people cycled 4800 km in 30 days. Here is another link which says that an elderly grandfather cycled 11,616 km in 30 days.

I was using that as one example of a journey where people meticulously planned a journey and then lived and breathed every mile of it. If the distances were wrong, they would know about it. And that, as you well know, is merely one example of many if you cared to look. There are countless websites documenting routes, with distances and rough times, and they are all entirely coherent with the distances you get from google, or indeed any road atlas. Here's just one:
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https://www.mynrma.com.au/travel/road-trips/sydney-to-perth-10-day-road-trip
Likewise, as mentioned by Duncan, all the other travel methods, such as rail, are also completely coherent.
Doesn't look like you've provided much in the way of solid evidence on this to me.

Well what do you need? What would you accept as proof of the dimensions of Australia, or North America, or anywhere? You presumably don't require first-hand experience of a country to believe that it exists, otherwise you would need to have visited everywhere yourself to verify that each country does in fact exist, so what makes you think that Australia is even vaguely shaped the way it is? All of the FE maps in the wiki have some kind of nod to Australia, with some kind of shape, but what makes you accept them as valid? You must therefore presumably accept some kind of consensus view on the subject, which then raises the question: why would you reject an overwhelming consensus on dimensions?

Also, the shape and size of Australia is different among all of the Flat Earth maps. Which one are you trying to debunk?

All of them. They are all wrong in at least one very obvious way. Take just a handful of useful rules of thumb - Australia is about 4800km across and 3600km north to south from the tip of the 'horn' of Northern Queensland down to Melbourne. Australia is also roughly the same width as mainland USA, at its widest point. So any FE map where Australia doesn't roughly match the width of the USA is obviously wrong, which immediately rules out most of the ones on the wiki. Likewise, any FE map where Australia is taller than it is wide is also obviously wrong, ruling out both of the bi-polar maps.

As an aside, if there was genuine curiosity in the FE community about the size and shape of the world, why is there a complete absence of enquiry regarding which of the competing maps is correct? You all just seem perfectly content to have a set of maps that are completely at odds with each other, despite being equipped with the tools you need to verify simple distances between known places. It's almost as if you'd rather not know...

   

Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2021, 08:46:14 AM »
I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused.

I was also quite confused by this topic when I came here. Here my findings so far ...

FE maps are either projections of a globe or fantasy maps. I have not seen any FE map based on distance and angle measurements. It should be quite simple (at least on land) - just measure and scale. But it seems there are a lot of obstacles preventing exact measurement. Bendy light, refractions and whatever effects lead to wrong measurements and finally to unknown or wrong distances.

Some still try to figure out a “working FE map”, others seem to accept that we just cannot know the detailed layout of earth.

The general problem is, that all known angles, areas and distances are based on a globe and the surface of a sphere cannot be flattened without distortion. If the measures fit on a globe, the cannot fit on a flat map.

If someone accepts these measures to be correct (and not faked or erroneous) he “must” accept the globe earth. I put “must” in quotes, because I have the impression that some see this differently.

If the measures are not correct, then how to check a “working map”?

For practical reasons the map answer is quite simple:
Just use google maps, bing, OSM or any printed map you like. It is already flat and it is accepted as “working”! Just imagine it is not a projection of a globe but a scale from flat earth and you are done. I bet you will not find any better solution  ;)

Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2021, 10:40:04 AM »
Also, the shape and size of Australia is different among all of the Flat Earth maps.
Why?
Different shapes and sizes for land masses only make sense if the earth is a globe (or some other non flat shape). In that case some projection between the earth's true shape and a flat map is necessary which will inevitably distort sizes, shapes or distances.

Maps are flat. If the earth is flat too then it should be possible to make a map of Australia, indeed the whole earth, which accurately depicts the reality of landmass shapes and known distances between places. Why can't you?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2021, 11:07:59 AM »
Maps are flat. If the earth is flat too then it should be possible to make a map of Australia, indeed the whole earth, which accurately depicts the reality of landmass shapes and known distances between places. Why can't you?


I'm interested in this too. If the spherical representation of the planet functions in all aspects of common day life, and there is approved-by-majority flat alternative of FE-ers, FE-ers must be using a spherical representation for everything in their daily life as well, no ? Why has nobody made an attempt to create a detailed map based on the known country-and city locations alone ? That would be my first step if I believed the world to be flat, to create a working alternative.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2021, 03:21:44 PM »
Why has nobody made an attempt to create a detailed map based on the known country-and city locations alone ? That would be my first step if I believed the world to be flat, to create a working alternative.

They probably have, but I would guess they very quickly ran into a fundamental problem. If you take a large place, like Australia, and try to draw a FE map of it on a flat piece of paper, you might get all the distances working pretty well, but you will very quickly discover that directions stop working. If you want keep places that are far apart and on a north-south relationship, for example, you will find that you can't keep them all north-south and preserve the distances between them. This is because, of course, lines of longitude get closer together as you get further south. So if you want to keep north-south relationships, and retain some kind of lat-long consistency, then you have to distort the shapes of countries to achieve that. And that, I think, is what has happened in most of the FE maps in the wiki - they seem to be trying to keep the RE lat-long system, and in so doing, everything gets distorted.

For most people, you might think, the impossibility of representing the known world on a flat map might be a cue to reconsider your understanding of the shape of it, but that does not seem to bother the FE community.

Peter Winfield

Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2021, 07:10:36 PM »
So you're telling me of all the hundreds of thousands of FE believers in the world today, none of them is able to draw up a detailed map ?
The reality is that there are multiple competing models, some with a long history (and arguably mainstream), some rather new and original. You can find some of them at https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps

Can any of those models draw a detailed "working" map of the Earth?

Peter Winfield

Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2021, 07:19:54 PM »

Also, the shape and size of Australia is different among all of the Flat Earth maps.

Since the size and shape of Australia does not change, this means that all but one of the models is wrong.

Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2021, 05:46:30 PM »

Also, the shape and size of Australia is different among all of the Flat Earth maps.

Since the size and shape of Australia does not change, this means that all but one of the models is wrong.

You’re missing another possibility: it’s impossible for all of them to be correct but they could quite easily be all wrong.
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

Peter Winfield

Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2021, 04:00:46 PM »
The reality is that there are multiple competing models, some with a long history (and arguably mainstream), some rather new and original. You can find some of them at https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps

This is a huge problem for FE, since the RE model has one highly detailed model that is almost universally accepted. FE claims a longer history than RE but can't even agree on simple data such as the radius of the Equator or Tropics.

And those aren't models on the wiki, they are very low resolution pictures. Show an A0 300 dpi map and then we can see if it matches reality.