How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« on: February 15, 2021, 08:55:38 PM »
Considering that the flat earth sun is a relatively small object (32 miles?) it should appear to be VERY small when it's close to the horizon and theoretically much further away from the observer than it is at midday for example.
The fact that the sun is the same size throughout the day is a HUGE dent in the flat earth model.
This model really is so eazy to debunk it's not funny.

Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2021, 06:06:59 PM »
The sun changes apparent size no matter what model you ascribe to.  Whether that change in size is discernable with our level of precision is the only question.

Wether the size of the sun will change depends on how far away it is, how much it moves away from the observer, and what we are looking through (and wilder stuff, like if the sun itself changes shape/size over the time viewed). 

Although we erronrously/disingenuously teach children that we know the answers to those questions - honestly/critically we do not.

There is no flat earth model to debunk.  You are beating up an inanimate strawman by yourself - alone.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2021, 06:28:23 PM by jack44556677 »

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2021, 08:39:36 PM »
The sun changes apparent size no matter what model you ascribe to.  Whether that change in size is discernable with our level of precision is the only question.

Wether the size of the sun will change depends on how far away it is, how much it moves away from the observer, and what we are looking through (and wilder stuff, like if the sun itself changes shape/size over the time viewed). 

Although we erronrously/disingenuously teach children that we know the answers to those questions - honestly/critically we do not.

There is no flat earth model to debunk.  You are beating up an inanimate strawman by yourself - alone.

So, if you’re saying the sun changes apparent size, you must presumably have some idea of by how much, and in what way? So what angular size is the sun at different times of the day, or viewed from different parts of the planet?

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Offline JSS

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2021, 10:01:37 PM »
The sun changes apparent size no matter what model you ascribe to.  Whether that change in size is discernable with our level of precision is the only question.

Wether the size of the sun will change depends on how far away it is, how much it moves away from the observer, and what we are looking through (and wilder stuff, like if the sun itself changes shape/size over the time viewed). 

Although we erronrously/disingenuously teach children that we know the answers to those questions - honestly/critically we do not.

There is no flat earth model to debunk.  You are beating up an inanimate strawman by yourself - alone.

All of these things can be calculated to put them in perspective.

Moving from the closest you can get on a round Earth to the furthest will see the Sun's angular width decrease by 0.000022 degrees. To put THAT in perspective, a camera with a 2.5 billion megapixel sensor would see the sun get smaller by ONE PIXEL.

On the other hand, if the Sun was only 5000 miles away and 50 miles wide (guessing since there is no authoritative Flat Earth model to draw from) it would change size a great deal.  Driving a mere 3000 miles away would see it shrink by 15%.  This would be easily measured by nearly any camera you can buy.

So in the real world the Sun does not change size at all on a round Earth, not by any amount you can measure without NASA level funding and effort.

We actually do know the answers to these questions.

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Offline stack

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2021, 10:36:35 PM »
Using one of the FE claims about Sun & Moon altitude and size, here's a simulation showing how a 3000 mile high, 30 mile wide Moon (Same for the sun) would change size as it "sets":


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2021, 02:21:42 AM »
Using one of the FE claims about Sun & Moon altitude and size, here's a simulation showing how a 3000 mile high

That's not a simulation of what FE claims to occur.

You know that the explanation is here and do not even attempt to address it: https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline JSS

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2021, 02:48:24 AM »
Using one of the FE claims about Sun & Moon altitude and size, here's a simulation showing how a 3000 mile high

That's not a simulation of what FE claims to occur.

You know that the explanation is here and do not even attempt to address it: https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset

We had this discussion before, the Wiki is confusing a cameras sensor being blown out with 'magnification' and is wrong.  Street lights are not changing size or being magnified nor is the Sun, and using the correct camera settings shows that in both cases.

Here is a picture of the Sun where the exposure is being blown out, and one with the correct techniques, both pictures taken seconds apart.  The Sun isn't bigger in the left image, it's just glare.

[img wirth=320]https://i.imgur.com/ANgcDSP.jpg[/img]


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2021, 02:50:04 AM »
Your explanation failed to explain why lights of various distances in the far field all stay the same size, and was summarily dismissed.

In the far field the lights are the same size:

« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 02:52:52 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline JSS

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2021, 03:12:56 AM »
Your explanation failed to explain why lights of various distances in the far field all stay the same size, and was summarily dismissed.

In the far field the lights are the same size:



The lights don't all stay the same size, you can see them shrinking off into the distance.

You are again mistaking glare for the actual size of the objects. The lights are not being magnified, the sensor is being overloaded. My picture shows this effect very clearly, and here is another.

As you can see, overexposing the picture makes the lights look bigger.  But the bottom picture shows that the lights are not actually larger, it's just the glare.

This is a very simple concept, bright lights wash out a camera's sensor and causes bloom and highlight blowouts, as I have shown.


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2021, 03:16:49 AM »
The lights in your example are all different sizes, as would be expected if they were shrinking to perspective with distance.

The lights don't linearly shrink in the example I gave. The last five lights don't shrink as much as much as the first five lights. They simply are not shrinking to perspective to tiny specs as you imagine they should be.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline JSS

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2021, 03:33:12 AM »
The lights in your example are all different sizes, as would be expected if they were shrinking to perspective with distance.

The lights don't linearly shrink in the example I gave. The last five lights don't shrink as much as much as the first five lights. They simply are not shrinking to perspective to tiny specs as you imagine they should be.

If you took the picture with the proper exposure they would shrink to tiny dots, just as they should be.  Of course they are not shrinking correctly, the pictures are overexposing the bright lights. 

You seem to keep missing the point that you are seeing glare, not magnification.

All your examples just show badly exposed bright lights, none of them show the same scene taken with two settings like the photos I took and posted.  Your examples are incomplete.

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Offline stack

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2021, 12:49:50 PM »
Using one of the FE claims about Sun & Moon altitude and size, here's a simulation showing how a 3000 mile high

That's not a simulation of what FE claims to occur.

You know that the explanation is here and do not even attempt to address it: https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset

Sure it is an FE claim. Are you not familiar with your own wiki?

Distance to the Sun
"Later researchers with the Universal Zetetic Society estimated the sun to be at about 3000 miles above the surface of the earth, with the stars at about 100 miles above that."
"The distance between the equator and the points at 45 degrees north or south is approximately 3,000 miles . Ergo, the sun would be an equal distance above the equator."
"Modern Mechanics describes how on a Flat Earth the sun can be computed to 3,000 miles via triangulation"

https://wiki.tfes.org/Distance_to_the_Sun

The Setting of the Sun as a Perspective Effect
"This explains how the sun descends into the horizon as it recedes."
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Setting_of_the_Sun_as_a_Perspective_Effect

And good old Magnification of the Sun fails when confronted with the reality of sunsets (rises) viewed through a solar filter. No magnification change as suggested.

Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2021, 01:33:49 PM »
Your explanation failed to explain why lights of various distances in the far field all stay the same size, and was summarily dismissed.

In the far field the lights are the same size:
You can't even distinguish the far away lights in that image, it's all an over-exposed mess.

But the change in apparent size is not linear. For the apparent size to half the distance has to double.
So as something close to you gets further away then initially the apparent size changes a lot.
As lights (or any other objects) recede into the distance the change in apparent size will become less.
And in that photo it's all such an low resolution over-exposed mess anyway that it's hard to draw any conclusions from.

Look at this film of a car driving towards the camera:



Note how for the first 8 seconds or so the apparent size of the car changes very slowly and then it starts to get bigger much quicker.
This is how perspective works.

And none of this changes that through a solar filter the sun's apparent size remains the same whether it's overhead (about 3,000 miles away), or on the horizon when it must be at least 2 or 3 times as far away. That is completely impossible.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 01:54:08 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2021, 05:53:29 PM »
The lights in your example are all different sizes, as would be expected if they were shrinking to perspective with distance.

The lights don't linearly shrink in the example I gave. The last five lights don't shrink as much as much as the first five lights. They simply are not shrinking to perspective to tiny specs as you imagine they should be.

If you took the picture with the proper exposure they would shrink to tiny dots, just as they should be.  Of course they are not shrinking correctly, the pictures are overexposing the bright lights. 

If they were really tiny dots in the distance, then the halo of overexposure around those tiny dots should shrink too, just as they are doing in your second image with multiple lights.
 
These two halos are shrinking to perspective:



So according to this effect the halos should shrink to perspective as they grow more distant.

They are not appropriately shrinking to perspective in the scene I posted, however. The last five lights don't shrink as much as the first five lights closest to the observer. The shrinking slows down in the distance. The shrinking is not linear.

https://vimeo.com/342791916



 Therefore something else is occurring and this explanation of "overexposure" does not provide a sufficient explanation.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 06:03:12 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2021, 06:03:08 PM »
The last five lights don't shrink as much as the first five lights. Therefore something else is occurring.
The video of the car is your friend in understanding what.
Something 10 meters away will appear twice as big as when it's 20 meters away.
To halve in size again it has to be 40 meters away.
To halve again then it's 80 meters.

So yes. Lights in the foreground will appear to change in size quickly because relative to you the difference in distance is marked.
As they get further away the difference in distance relative to you is much smaller.
As I said, the difference in distance between 10 and 20 meters is double. So if lights are spaced 10m apart then the second will appear twice as small as the first.
But the 10th and the 11th. That's the difference between 100m and 110m. Yes, there will be a difference but it's harder to discern, particularly in a low resolution image which is overexposed and has loads of glare. And taken from an angle where all the distant lights overlap anyway.

The sun in your model is 3 or 4 times as far away at sunrise and sunset as it is when it's overhead.
What does Occam's Razor and perspective tell you about the expected angular size at those two times?
What is the simplest explanation?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2021, 06:09:28 PM »
Addendum. Here's another photo of a row of lights

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/FD86AM/street-lights-lit-up-at-night-in-row-FD86AM.jpg

Lots of glare on this one too but, crucially, because of the angle it's taken from each light is distinct. And if you look at the last few lights:



The red lines I've drawn aren't parallel because the lights are getting smaller as they go into the distance. Just more slowly as they get further away.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2021, 06:21:24 PM »
Just more slowly as they get further away.

Seeing as you've admitted that the size of the lights do not shrink linearly as they progress into the distance, I don't see that there is anything further to discuss on this matter. You admit that the lights do not linearly shrink.

The first three lights in the scene are clearly shrinking much more in proportion to each other:



As compared to the last three lights in the scene:



This supports the previous picture showing that the shrinking size of the lights seems to slow down into the distance to the point where they don't look like they are shrinking at all. Hence, the effect in the Wiki is supported and upheld.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 06:22:58 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2021, 06:31:35 PM »
Seeing as you've admitted that the size of the lights do not shrink linearly as they progress into the distance

Your claim is that the lights do not shrink at all at a certain distance. Incorrect.
Of course the difference in size between a light at 10m and one at 20m is much easier to discern than the difference at 100m and 110m.
One is double the distance, the other is 10%.
So of course the further away something is, the less a small difference in distance will make. But we are not talking about the sun changing from 3000 miles away to 3100 miles.
That would be hard to discern (although it could certainly be measured with the right equipment).
We are talking about a difference between 3000 miles and ~9000 miles. That would mean an apparent size 3 times greater at midday as at sunset - maybe more, I don't know exactly what your estimate for the distance to the sun at sunset is.

So which is more likely? You're an Occam's Razor kinda' guy. What's the simplest explanation for a constant angular size. Is it:
1) The sun really is 3 or more times further away at sunset than it is at midday, but there's an unexplained optical effect which means that no matter the distance the sun maintains the same angular size 2) The sun is actually a consistent distance from us

PS: I made a bit of a hash of that image above. Here's another go. I've used a fill tool with the same sensitivity to fill in the last few lights in the stock image:



And then overlaid them



The change in size is clear.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline JSS

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Re: How does the size of the sun remain the same throughout the day?
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2021, 06:35:53 PM »
If they were really tiny dots in the distance, then the halo of overexposure around those tiny dots should shrink too, just as they are doing in your second image with multiple lights.

You may believe this is what should happen, but that doesn't make it true. It's just a claim you are making.


These two halos are shrinking to perspective:

Again you are mixing up glare with 'shrinking'. These are not the same and you will continue to misunderstand what is happening in these pictures as long as you continue to make this mistake.

So according to this effect the halos should shrink to perspective as they grow more distant.

No, according to you this should happen, but your assumptions are wrong, as are your conclusions. You can't just make up effects and claim how they behave.

They are not appropriately shrinking to perspective in the scene I posted, however. The last five lights don't shrink as much as the first five lights closest to the observer. The shrinking slows down in the distance. The shrinking is not linear.

Once more, it's only your claim that things are not 'appropriately' shrinking.  You continue to make statements as if they were fact when they are simply your own opinions of how you imagine light should behave.

Therefore something else is occurring and this explanation of "overexposure" does not provide a sufficient explanation.

Again, a series of misunderstandings and incorrect assumptions leads to yet another claim based entirely on your own idea of what you think should happen.  I'm sorry you can't understand overexposure but that doesn't mean something else has to occur.

I've shown this before, the Sun is the SAME SIZE taken with the same lens no matter what the time of day and no matter where you are on the planet if you avoid glare. I have taken thousands of pictures of the sun and can assure you, it does not change size. This is the Sun with glare when taken with normal settings, and again with the correct settings and filter which shows the real size.  Glare is NOT enlarging the image, it's not magnification. It's just overwhelming the sensor.