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The ice wall - data support and
« on: January 25, 2021, 02:07:45 AM »
Going through the wiki articles for the Ice Wall and isostasy, there are some issues that jump out.

A reference to Drewry et al's 1983 compilation is made to point out that only 5%of Antarctica's coastline is rocky. This is a fantastic compilation that was well received by peers at the time. It seems to form the basis to quantify arguments that the ice wall is an insurmountable feature that meets you at the Antarctic coast.  But the Drewry compilation also included data for ~50% of the entire Antarctic continent, including ice surface elevation, thickness and bedrock elevation, measured through airborne Radio echo sounding. Much of this information is actually contained within the table provided, as it's the best way we were able to discern whether an ice mass was floating or grounded. If the Drewry compilation is good enough to prove the ice wall's existence and characteristics, then the other data that went into that table must also be evaluated. This is contrary to the claim on the page that "no one knows what lies far beyond the ice wall"

The page on the ice wall also cites Jamea Ross' testimony. And he wrote detailed accounts of his expeditions so why shouldn't it be included. But then why dont FEW authors accept the accounts of more recent experts who have travelled to (and collected data) well within the interior of the continent beyond the ice wall? Lake Vostok, for example is very intensively studied and is located over 1000 km from the nearest coastline.

The page on the ice wall mentions how the sheer weight of ice is enough to depress bedrock; a wonderful - and accurate - contradiction to the claims on the isostasy page, which relies heavily on the opinions of just two geologists, who have provided some interesting alternate theories to our reality.

Out of curiosity, does FES support the electric universe theory espoused by Hissink, or the aetherometry concepts provided by Pratt (https://www.aetherometry.com/Aetherometry_Intro/)?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 03:19:33 AM by Iceman2020 »

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Re: The ice wall - data support and
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2021, 07:10:13 PM »
To root some of the questions on isostasy a bit better into modern science, here are a few open access links that show the modern observations of crustal uplift for the formerly glaciated Great Lakes region:

modern water level gauge data and uplift modelling in Great lakes
http://www.greatlakescc.org/wp36/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/PresentDayTiltinggrlakes_gsab2005.pdf

GPS data showing vertical and horizontal movement across US, Canada, and parts of Greenland
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1029/2006GL027081


In addition to the modern observations of uplift rates, we have an understanding of total magnitude of uplift and past uplift rates by analyzing the tilt of past shorelines that formed around the Great Lakes while the Laurentide ice sheet was still present, blocking normal drainage outlets allowing for drastically higher water levels.

Compilation of data on past shorelines from glacial lakes indicating total amount of uplift and uplift rates throughout deglaciation to present
https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/gpq/2005-v59-n2-3-gpq1624/014754ar/

a review paper on a moraine system that developed along the St. Lawrence valley during deglaciation, when the crust was depressed enough to be flooded by sea water >200m above modern sea level
https://www.erudit.org/en/journals/gpq/2007-v61-n2-3-gpq3583/038987ar/

Note that the direction of tilting observed from modern data is consistent with the observed direction of tilting for deglacial shorelines, providing important correlations for consideration of potential causes of crustal movements. I would contend that these sources amount to a greater collection of empirical observations and knowledge than what is provided on the Wiki to refute the concept of (glacial) isostasy.

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Re: The ice wall - data support and
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2021, 02:14:40 AM »
A great talk from a modern glaciologist Jonny Kingslake who does work in Antarctica. Talk addressed to a wide audience so no real technical background required. He covers the basics of antarctic geology and importance of understanding glacier response to climate shifts (spoiler: Antarctica was smaller in the recent past: a few thousand years ago)



His lecture is only about 25 minutes long. The second half is Q&A which I didnt listen to

Re: The ice wall - data support and
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2021, 05:18:09 PM »
Thanks!  The q&a session with the glaciologist was pretty informative.  "How does water always seek its level" on a globe was interesting:  gravity (and the unequal and changing distribution of it), high/low air pressures and temperature changes brought in by storms and it's effect on sea level, etc..
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

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Re: The ice wall - data support and
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2021, 08:57:55 PM »
Thanks!  The q&a session with the glaciologist was pretty informative.  "How does water always seek its level" on a globe was interesting:  gravity (and the unequal and changing distribution of it), high/low air pressures and temperature changes brought in by storms and it's effect on sea level, etc..

Maybe I'll have to check out the Q&A part then after all - glad you enjoyed :)

Yeah the questions of what defines water 'level' and how its surface and flow are controlled by external forces as always going to be an interesting discussion. There are a few threads in the FE Theory board dedicated to just that, in case you wanted to check out some of the back and forth people have had on that topic.

Kingslake's data is interesting because it points to a time in the recent past when Antarctica was smaller than present, meaning the position of the ice wall was drastically different then. This matches with the response of alpine glaciers worldwide, as well as the Greenland ice cap (though it's tough to say because he doesnt actually provide the bracketed ages for the shrunken ice sheet).

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Re: The ice wall - data support and
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2021, 03:02:41 AM »
A nice, short open access summary paper on the history of exploring for subglacial lakes, and potential future investigation, as some of these lakes are being drilled and sampled for studying microbial life inhabiting the water bodies.

Maps show locations of subglacial lakes identified at various stages of research, as well as the wealth of geophysical data covering a huge portion of Antarctica.

A nice point is the mention that the breakthroughs were made through international collaboration between scientists, as opposed to a race between countries.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317227104_A_60-year_international_history_of_Antarctic_subglacial_lake_exploration

Re: The ice wall - data support and
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2021, 03:28:46 PM »
That's cool.   I like how sensitive they were to the enviornments.
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

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Re: The ice wall - data support and
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2021, 07:46:40 PM »
Here's a link that shines a high-level light on the risk of ice shelf collapse under future warming conditions and, more importantly, evidence that it happened in the not-too-distant past.

http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/antarctica-2/west-antarctic-ice-sheet-2/marine-ice-sheets/

The famous marine ice wall in the Ross Sea probably wasnt there at all during the last interglacial period when things were a few degrees warmer than today.

Re: The ice wall - data support and
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2021, 10:51:34 PM »
 that's amazing info.   It's amazing how wicket done of these ice shelves can collapse sometimes.   I watched a 40 sec clio of an ice shelf collapse near the rosd sea in under a year?  The mountains are beautiful btw, amazing.
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

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Re: The ice wall - data support and
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2021, 01:45:30 AM »
Open data sets available for download:

Marine coastal and southern ocean from US Antarctic Survey expeditions:
https://www.marine-geo.org/collections/#!/collection/USAP#dataSets

A wide variety of data sets from multiple sources, covering geophysical, geological, ice velocity mapping
http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/antarctica-2/antarctic-datasets/

And a GIS data for a wide variety of commonly collected and requested data from across the continent, including glaciological data
http://www.quantarctica.org

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Re: The ice wall - data support and
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2021, 02:46:39 AM »
In light of the data provided above, a few questions for consideration:

What is the explanation for marine sediments and shorelines deposited to elevations far above modern sea level in the vicinity of formerly glaciated coastal areas?

What is the explanation for the modern measurement of uplift in formerly glaciated regions (without active tectonics)? Why is the magnitude of uplift greatest near the central parts of former ice sheets, and why is the direction of increasing uplift rates identical to the observed warping of paleo shoreline elevations than have been dated to various time intervals throughout deglaciation, with the older and more northern shorelines warped to a greater extent?

The ice wall wiki page has one peer-reviewed source. This is a compilation of all the available data at the time (1982). Why is the wealth of data that was found in that compilation ignored save for the coastline mapping found in the table? How did the authors quantify the proportion of floating vs grounded ice wall margins?

Does FES discount all the available data from the interior of Antarctica? Ice cores, subglacial lake sampling, rock sampling, radio echo sounding, satellite velocity measurements, gravity data?

Why dont we talk about the similarities between Antarctica and greenland? Aside from much higher summer insulation and surface melting, the two ice caps are very similar.

I just really like glaciers. And it kills me that a big chunk of FET relies on discounting some amazing advances weve made in what is absolutely one of the most hostile research environments on the planet. Really what bugs me is the wiki articles on ice-related phenomena, the ice wall and isostasy. Proposing radically different ideas is fine, but neither page contains references that are anywhere near adequate for the claims made.