Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2021, 07:25:19 PM »
Stack, it is at least pretty clear that they fly directly within the polar jet stream. As to why they didn't pick another route, well, my drawings of the jet streams arent perfect.  If you line them up perfectly with the flight path, then almost all of the jet streams have tradeoffs.  The polar jet is long but smooth, the middle stream is very curvey and far north anyway, and the southern jet is only available for maybe 50% of the trip and your still going out of your way.   The direct route you propose has no jet stream, you only pass through one twice at an intersection.



« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 08:36:46 PM by MetaTron »
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2021, 09:25:39 PM »

How does light bend to give the illusion of a celestial pole? On your map, I’m assuming the center is the South Pole and this has the southern celestial pole but how does the northern celestial pole works?

In the more traditional north centered flat Earth map, in the other thread, Tom tried to explain it away using crepuscular and anti crepuscular rays. That explanation was shaky but even more glaring issue was the ability of people on different continents to look at their own south directions (remember, different places on a flat Earth) and still see the same stars. I remember stack or someone else found a time of year when conditions are dark enough to see stars from Australia, tip of South America, and tip of Africa.

How do you explain that? On the Globe earth, South Pole is a single point. People looking south from all of those three locations are converging at a singular point. Therefore, they can easily see the same set of stars.

This issue was not resolved by the way and Tom has now abandoned that thread presumably because it’s not really recoverable without also bending logic. In a yet another thread about a similar discussion I believe the flat Earth proponents had to change wiki because of this issue.

Regarding light bending, in the summer months in NY, i can see the Sun rise to my North West and Set North East.
 If the sun is located below my latitude which it is, shouldn't it rise and set in front of me in SW and SE?  I went nuts over this, until I realized that during sunrise im seeing a reflection of the sun on the northern edge of the dome (which is North West). As it rises the suns rays are less distorted during the day (my viewing angle is closer to 90deg) and therefore passes in front of me (facing south) as one would expect. During the winter it rises and sets in front of me which (correct me if im wrong, but the sun is farther south and more perpendicular to the dome so theres less of a bending of light around the dome effect.  If you take a flashlight and point it at a huge glass dome, the sides will illuminate less as you point the flashlight down and center.  If you bring the light to the edge of the dome it will reflect on all sides.   

For star purposes, if you spin the earth which i believe happens, beneath a starry sky through the eyes of a dome, you will observe two seperate rotating circles that represent the two poles of axis.  It's in the wiki.  Further, if you admit being able to see a huge sun at sunset (despite being further away from your location), then you have to admit that the dome can share and magnify images of the sky to your location even if its not near you.  That's my understanding of stars as seen by people around the northern hemisphere.  They see a certain set of stars based on there viewing angle, and can see these stars during a big portion of the night and to there north because the Dome helps project these images to everyone as the starlight bends around it during the early hours of night and the later hours of night just like the sun in the morning! 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 09:38:03 PM by MetaTron »
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

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Offline stack

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Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2021, 04:13:11 AM »
Stack, it is at least pretty clear that they fly directly within the polar jet stream. As to why they didn't pick another route, well, my drawings of the jet streams arent perfect.  If you line them up perfectly with the flight path, then almost all of the jet streams have tradeoffs.  The polar jet is long but smooth, the middle stream is very curvey and far north anyway, and the southern jet is only available for maybe 50% of the trip and your still going out of your way.   The direct route you propose has no jet stream, you only pass through one twice at an intersection.

You're missing a key fact. Not only do planes fly that northerly path from LA to London, but they fly the same path, against the polar jetstream, from London to LA. Why don't planes take my straight route on your map over Africa and South America when flying London to LA? It's way shorter and they are not fighting a jetstream.

Average flight time, British airways non-stop LAX to LHR is 9:37
Average flight time, British airways non-stop LHR to LAX is 10:31

1 hour difference yet your northerly arcing flight path is at least a third longer than my straight line path on your map.




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Offline RazaTD

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Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2021, 05:10:07 AM »
These are good questions.  I attempted to reconcile these problems in the map below.  You'll notice that I shrunk all latitudes and longitudes below 30d north by 50% and increased latitude and longutudes by 150% above 60d north.  I also increased the distance between 60w to 30w and correspondingly150e to 120e.  This helps to modify and provide more accurate landmasses that we measure today,  identical in the most popular fly over areas.   Greenland, South America, Australia, and China are directly affected by this. 

I drew an exact map to size in another post called "new world map (south centered)".  This one is my best attempt at Photoshop on an android.

If your starting point is the 3D Globe Earth map and you are creating a 2D Flat Earth map, you will always face a loss of information. There is no way around it. You can do different projections to take different forms of the loss of information (distortion in distances, shapes, sizes etc) but there will always be a loss of information.
The 3D Globe Earth map is fiction.

All maps are flat.

Period.

When you take something that is flat to begin with and try to make it into a sphere, that is where the idiocy begins.

The Flat Earth map is a projection of the 3D Globe map. There are many flaws with this projection as it should be expected because of the loss of information that is incurs. There is a lot wrong with the Flat Earth map as it is presented. A lot of the flight distances and times don’t match up with reality. There is no single South Pole (see my thread about the issue of Southern Celestial pole related to this).

None of these issues happen with the Globe Earth map because it reflects reality without loss of information.
There is no single verifiable map of the entire world of any kind, RET or FET.

All maps are flat, however.

There is no such thing as a "Globe" map.

Quit posting false information.

Actually there is a Globe map that perfectly describes reality. The traditional Flat Earth map is literally just its projection. That is why, as I explained in my previous message, there is a loss of information.

This means the traditional Flat Earth map gets a lot of stuff wrong including the fact that South Pole is actually a singular point instead of a ring. Simple proof of this is observing the Southern Celestial Pole. If you claim that the South Pole is actually a ring, then how do three people living in Australia, tip of Africa, and tip of South America look to their South (different locations) and see the same stars.

Unless you are a troll, you will not deny the existence of the Southern Celestial Pole. How does the Flat Earth map explain this real life observation. The Glove Earth map has no trouble explaining this.

Also this problem occurs even if the two people are on the same continent but just far apart. The two people see the same set of stars even if their South Direction is different.
A rational man

Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2021, 05:49:03 AM »


You're missing a key fact. Not only do planes fly that northerly path from LA to London, but they fly the same path, against the polar jetstream, from London to LA. Why don't planes take my straight route on your map over Africa and South America when flying London to LA? It's way shorter and they are not fighting a jetstream.

Average flight time, British airways non-stop LAX to LHR is 9:37
Average flight time, British airways non-stop LHR to LAX is 10:31

1 hour difference yet your northerly arcing flight path is at least a third longer than my straight line path on your map.





As usual thank you for the mind bending information.   I can't answer this yet.  My first thoughts are why are planes travelling up a jet stream?  But I can see there trying to avoid it.  Jet streams are normally a few hundred miles wide.  And even if that was the shortest distance, why if the earth is spinning TOWARDS you on your flight from London to LAX, why would the flight take longer?  It should be shorter.?  The only answer I have is when you fly near the Artic Circle, you have entered the Twilight Zone!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 06:26:52 AM by MetaTron »
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2021, 09:15:44 AM »
@MetaTron

Centering the map on the south pole (or any other place on earth) does not solve distance problems - it just shifts it to another area.

But have a look how REers act.
They have a globe in their living room as decoration and to show where they have spent their holidays.
But for all practical purposes like planning a route or building a bridge they use flat maps and they call it "projections of a globe". Why are they using all this distorted maps if they have a globe???

So why not turning this around and using a flat earth map projected on a globe?
This would solve all shape and distance problems forever.
 ;)

Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2021, 10:50:44 AM »
All the usual talk of flights is all very well, but to bring the discussion down to earth I’d like to ask MetaTron what the distance on this new map is from Moscow to Vladivostock, as taken by the Trans Siberian Railway, overland. The route passes through Kirov, Yekaterinberg, Novosibirsk, Krasnoyarsk, Irkutsk, Ulan-Ude, Svobodny and Khabarovsk to name a few places along the way.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Railway

The actual distance is going to be a little longer than the direct measurement because the train route isn’t perfectly straight, but what sort of distance do you make it on your new map?
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Offline RazaTD

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Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2021, 01:58:04 PM »


You're missing a key fact. Not only do planes fly that northerly path from LA to London, but they fly the same path, against the polar jetstream, from London to LA. Why don't planes take my straight route on your map over Africa and South America when flying London to LA? It's way shorter and they are not fighting a jetstream.

Average flight time, British airways non-stop LAX to LHR is 9:37
Average flight time, British airways non-stop LHR to LAX is 10:31

1 hour difference yet your northerly arcing flight path is at least a third longer than my straight line path on your map.





As usual thank you for the mind bending information.   I can't answer this yet.  My first thoughts are why are planes travelling up a jet stream?  But I can see there trying to avoid it.  Jet streams are normally a few hundred miles wide.  And even if that was the shortest distance, why if the earth is spinning TOWARDS you on your flight from London to LAX, why would the flight take longer?  It should be shorter.?  The only answer I have is when you fly near the Artic Circle, you have entered the Twilight Zone!

Because the atmosphere of the Earth also spins with the Earth. If what you are proposing were true, helicopters could just hover and wait for their destination to come to them. Similarly, jumping in a train or plane would slam you across on the back of the vehicle.
A rational man

Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2021, 03:15:49 PM »

So why not turning this around and using a flat earth map projected on a globe?
This would solve all shape and distance problems forever.
 ;)

Lol, interesting idea.
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2021, 03:41:20 PM »
[quote author=MetaTron  Why don't planes take my straight route on your map over Africa and South America when flying London to LA? It's way shorter and they are not fighting a jetstream.


Stack, I discovered two more jet streams that run right through South America.   See attachments.
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2021, 03:58:54 PM »
All the usual talk of flights is all very well, but to bring the discussion down to earth I’d like to ask MetaTron what the distance on this new map is from Moscow to Vladivostock, as taken by the Trans Siberian Railway, overland. The route passes through Kirov, Yekaterinberg, Novosibirsk, Krasnoyarsk, Irkutsk, Ulan-Ude, Svobodny and Khabarovsk to name a few places along the way.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Railway

The actual distance is going to be a little longer than the direct measurement because the train route isn’t perfectly straight, but what sort of distance do you make it on your new map?

Hi, the distance is the same.  I dont like to question well documented distance measurements on earth.   
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2021, 04:36:11 PM »
Hi, the distance is the same.  I dont like to question well documented distance measurements on earth.

That’s probably wise, thank you.
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2021, 06:16:49 PM »


Because the atmosphere of the Earth also spins with the Earth. If what you are proposing were true, helicopters could just hover and wait for their destination to come to them. Similarly, jumping in a train or plane would slam you across on the back of the vehicle.

Raza, if the helicopter hovered over the earth for 10 hours i bet it would still move east (opposite the earths rotation) even with normal wind conditions because the atmosphere still must trail the earth because it is a gas after all.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 06:19:14 PM by MetaTron »
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2021, 06:49:29 PM »
Raza, if the helicopter hovered over the earth for 10 hours i bet it would still move east (opposite the earths rotation) even with normal wind conditions because the atmosphere still must trail the earth because it is a gas after all.

Do you think so? If you put a mixing rotor like a food mixer’s paddle in a bowl of water and start it going for 5 hours, does the water still spin slower than the paddle by the end? It does, because the bowl isn’t turning and that drag of the bowl slows the water down.

But with a round earth there’s nothing containing the air, so what apart from the earth drags on the air? What is to slow the air from turning with the earth, at the same turning rate as the earth?
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Offline JSS

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Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2021, 07:13:11 PM »
Raza, if the helicopter hovered over the earth for 10 hours i bet it would still move east (opposite the earths rotation) even with normal wind conditions because the atmosphere still must trail the earth because it is a gas after all.

Do you think so? If you put a mixing rotor like a food mixer’s paddle in a bowl of water and start it going for 5 hours, does the water still spin slower than the paddle by the end? It does, because the bowl isn’t turning and that drag of the bowl slows the water down.

But with a round earth there’s nothing containing the air, so what apart from the earth drags on the air? What is to slow the air from turning with the earth, at the same turning rate as the earth?

A better analogy is to put a bowl of water on a steady turntable. At the start the water is still, then it slowly starts to move, and eventually will move with the bowl.

You won't be able to see any difference in the speed of the bowl and the water anywhere in it as it will all be moving together.

This used to be easier to demonstrate when everyone had record players. :)

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Offline stack

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Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2021, 07:31:37 PM »


Because the atmosphere of the Earth also spins with the Earth. If what you are proposing were true, helicopters could just hover and wait for their destination to come to them. Similarly, jumping in a train or plane would slam you across on the back of the vehicle.

Raza, if the helicopter hovered over the earth for 10 hours i bet it would still move east (opposite the earths rotation) even with normal wind conditions because the atmosphere still must trail the earth because it is a gas after all.

Answered by Kelly Chipps
Postdoctoral Fellow
Department of Physics
Colorado School of Mines

Ask a Physicist Answers
If a helicopter hovers in a fixed position for 24 hours will the earth rotate around it?


"Since the helicopter is also sitting on the ground, it's also inside this moving reference frame, and has the momentum that goes with it so the helicopter is also moving at one revolution per day. In fact, so is the air! Now, when the helicopter takes off, it flies straight up to some height above the Earth's surface. But though the helicopter has exerted a force (through the use of its rotors) to lift it straight up, it hasn't exerted a force in the horizontal direction to counter the motion (momentum) it already had that one revolution per minute! So though the helicopter is no longer touching the ground, unless the pilot purposely exerts a force against the helicopter's initial momentum, the helicopter will continue to move at one revolution per day, and thus remain above the same spot on the Earth's surface from where it took off."
https://www.physicscentral.com/experiment/askaphysicist/physics-answer.cfm?uid=20110218025229

Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2021, 09:07:40 PM »
This is interesting,  thank you. 
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2021, 12:48:11 AM »
I find that nonsense interesting too.

No sane person with competency in physics should ever fall for it.

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2021, 01:23:25 AM »
I find that nonsense interesting too.

No sane person with competency in physics should ever fall for it.

Not a particularly productive contribution to call the physicist insane / incompetent just because you dont believe them.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Why are lines of latitude longer south of the equator than north?
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2021, 06:27:00 AM »
I find that nonsense interesting too.

No sane person with competency in physics should ever fall for it.

Curious to know which part of it, precisely, you disagree with? It’s no different to being on a train and walking around - if the track is straight, and the train isn’t accelerating or decelerating, you feel just like you’re walking around normally. Your inertial frame of reference has just moved. In the hovering helicopter example, the helicopter has whatever velocity that latitude of the earth’s surface has at the point of lift off, as does the air mass around it, give or take local wind speed.

As an aside, if you want to quibble at all, you could point out that we aren’t technically in an inertial reference frame, as we have a small centripetal acceleration. However, if you work out the acceleration, it is so trivial that for all intents and purposes it can be ignored.