Motivation to believe in flat earth?
« on: January 06, 2021, 12:03:28 PM »
I live in Austria (Europe) and read in the local news, that still many people are believing in a flat earth, especially in the USA. I don't know if this is really the case but I was curious.
So I asked myself what could attract people to be convinced by this theory. I found this place and applied my personal logic and values to understand the model. I totally failed and will not continue on that.
Now I try to understand it from a different perspective. I asked myself, what would be if my highest believe is that the place where I live must be unique and special. Then I probably would not care if everything can be explained, I would acknowledge that we cannot understand everything.

Most discussions I see is about the model - but maybe that's not the most important thing?

I would be very interested in what makes you (FE'er) beeing convinced by this theory and I hope this the right place to ask.
Does the model convince you? Or is it anything else?

Re: Motivation to believe in flat earth?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2021, 02:41:30 PM »
Hey there! Welcome!

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I asked myself, what would be if my highest believe is that the place where I live must be unique and special. Then I probably would not care if everything can be explained, I would acknowledge that we cannot understand everything.

Regardless of the shape of the world, both things are obviously true and must be accepted by the knowledgable/learned.  The earth is indeed unique and special, as is the life that is only found there. We also all must acknowledge that we cannot understand everything (and furthermore, many of the things we currently "understand" are incorrect).

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Most discussions I see is about the model - but maybe that's not the most important thing?

It almost certainly is not! There is no alternative model to discuss or evaluate, nor would that be an important thing to begin with.

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Does the model convince you? Or is it anything else?

The only model is the presumptive one (the globe model), there are no others - though there are more than a few conceptions (embryonic / fledgling models if you wish) out there to peruse and consider.

Personally, I do not know what shape the entire world is but I have concluded it (most likely) is not and cannot be spherical.  The most straightforward reason is that water's surface at rest (under natural conditions, and of non minuscule surface area) is always flat, level, and horizontal.  It never curves in the sustained convex manner the globe model requires, nor has anyone ever measured it to. Furthermore, whenever water's surface at rest IS measured, it is always flat, level, and horizontal.

The posit that the earth is spherical is little more than an unvalidated assumption over 2 millennia old.  That is the reason no one knows who determined the world was spherical, when, or how (and the names they do know - like eratosthenes and columbus - are wrong). It's because it never occurred.  It was simply taught as fact, erroneously and disingenuously, to children for millennia.

Re: Motivation to believe in flat earth?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2021, 08:31:39 AM »
Thanks Jack for this interesting insight.

The earth is indeed unique and special, as is the life that is only found there.

Well, this is the absolute opposite of my base believe. For me the earth is neither unique nor special, it's just special for us because we live there.
I think with such a different base believe it's no surprise to come to different conclustions.

We also all must acknowledge that we cannot understand everything (and furthermore, many of the things we currently "understand" are incorrect).

I fully agree with this opinion. "Understanding" for me means that I'm convinced that I can judge something with my personal expertise and way of logical thinking. I'm aware that this might differ from other peoples interpretation of "understanding". Even knowing, that my way of thinking can lead me to a wrong direction sometimes, it's the only one I personally  can rely on.

Personally, I do not know what shape the entire world is but I have concluded it (most likely) is not and cannot be spherical.  The most straightforward reason is that water's surface at rest (under natural conditions, and of non minuscule surface area) is always flat, level, and horizontal.

I read a lot about experiments related to flat water level. This experiments are claimed by both (RE'er and FE'er) to proof their position. Explanation is based on optical effects. Since I don't have expertise in this area, I cannot judge it.

For me personally the most convincing things, which I think I can judge, are:
- Global prediction of celestial events is always based on orbits and spheres
- Most maps are projections of a globe (different map layouts, one single globe layout)
- Satellite TV and GPS
If one of this would be proven wrong, I probably would start doubting.


Re: Motivation to believe in flat earth?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2021, 04:50:38 PM »
@fourtytwo

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Well, this is the absolute opposite of my base believe. For me the earth is neither unique nor special, it's just special for us because we live there.
I think with such a different base believe it's no surprise to come to different conclustions.

Belief is unwelcome (and across purposes) in knowledge/fact, most of all scientific.  You are, of course, permitted to believe any fantasy you like - but the science is clear and undeniable; the earth is the only place like it and there is ONLY data attesting to this fact.  There are weak statistical arguments that there may be other objects with similar size, but we have no idea what they are / how far away they are / or if they have anything in common with the earth (nor will we in the conceivable future).  The belief you profess is most likely not your own (not organic), it was taught to you and many others through conditioning through rote under the guise of education.  The anti-intellectual/anti-science worship of aliens and sci-fi is required in the religion of scientism.

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I fully agree with this opinion.

Then why do you feel it is an opinion? It is a contemporarily and historically demonstrable fact.

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Even knowing, that my way of thinking can lead me to a wrong direction sometimes, it's the only one I personally  can rely on.

Yes, and often what we are taught to know is wrong.  This is also an obvious contemporarily and historically demonstrable fact.

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I read a lot about experiments related to flat water level.

Cool.  However you should be aware that there is no experiment that has anything to do with the shape of the world.  Experiment is not used in any way to determine the shape of physical objects in reality.  People who talk (and are taught) about experiment this way, don't even know the proper definition - let alone other fundamentals of the scientific method.

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This experiments are claimed by both (RE'er and FE'er) to proof their position.

Experiment has a rigorous and inflexible definition.  It is scientific technical vernacular, and you are using it incorrectly (as were the people you encountered who claimed their mere measurements/observations were experiments).  I agree that pointing to these measurements as proof of the shape of the entire world is deluded and indefensible.

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Explanation is based on optical effects

It simply MUST be, otherwise it contradicts their religious worldviews.  That presumptive/default/apologist "explaination" is one of the reasons that globe believers don't critically evaluate their beliefs, or conduct science to get to the bottom of the issue.  They just stick their fingers in their ears and repeat the holy prayer mantra of "refraction" to keep the "bad data" at bay.

However, the natural law of water's surface always being flat at rest easily empirically proves that water does not and (due to its fundamental properties) cannot curve in the sustained convex manner that the globe requires.  The belief that the water does curve (because it simply MUST in the minds of the devout) the way the globe model requires has never been confirmed/measured in empirical science even once in all of human history.  It's not science, it's merely speculation as it always was.  The natural law is inarguable, has stood unchallenged for centuries in hydrostatics, and can be demonstrated by anyone at any time.  The belief in "curv-a-level" and bendy water are just religious dogmas misrepresented as "scientific fact" to children.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 04:53:52 PM by jack44556677 »