Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2020, 09:06:56 PM »
There are equivalence principle experiments which acts as experimental verification for UA.
Equivalence principle simply states in a local context you cannot distinguish between a downward force and an upward acceleration.
At best they show that UA is a plausible alternative.
BUT, note the "local context". Gravitational variations across the globe show that UA cannot be the correct explanation unless you invoke Celestial Gravitation which the Wiki gives a nod to but the page about it literally just says "this might be a thing".
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2020, 09:50:08 PM »
There are equivalence principle experiments which acts as experimental verification for UA. EA is pending testing, and may be untestable.

Choosing to point out the perceived weaknesses in FE when RE is called a pseudoscience is an admission that RE is pseudoscience and lacks experimental verification. That's like a "Yeah, it is pseudoscience, so?"

Saying EA may be "untestable" is saying that it is pseudoscience, by your own definition in your previous post above...
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 11:20:38 PM by Iceman2020 »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2020, 12:24:31 AM »
There are equivalence principle experiments which acts as experimental verification for UA. EA is pending testing, and may be untestable.

Choosing to point out the perceived weaknesses in FE when RE is called a pseudoscience is an admission that RE is pseudoscience and lacks experimental verification. That's like a "Yeah, it is pseudoscience, so?"

Saying EA may be "untestable" is saying that it is pseudoscience, by your own definition in your previous post above...

Yep. Our position on the matter is that astronomy is a peudoscience for whomever may practice it - https://wiki.tfes.org/Astronomy_is_a_Pseudoscience
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2020, 01:49:49 AM »
There are equivalence principle experiments which acts as experimental verification for UA. EA is pending testing, and may be untestable.

Choosing to point out the perceived weaknesses in FE when RE is called a pseudoscience is an admission that RE is pseudoscience and lacks experimental verification. That's like a "Yeah, it is pseudoscience, so?"

Saying EA may be "untestable" is saying that it is pseudoscience, by your own definition in your previous post above...

Yep. Our position on the matter is that astronomy is a peudoscience for whomever may practice it - https://wiki.tfes.org/Astronomy_is_a_Pseudoscience

So does it then follow that the FE explanation for the sun setting below the horizon, clouds lit from the underside during sunset, moon tilt illusion, phases of the moon, horizon dip at altitude, objects disappearing bottom-up across the horizon...basically any phenomena related to light travelling long distances... is an arm-wavy 'it's pseudoscience."?

Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2020, 12:38:30 AM »

Has anyone explained the purpose of saying the earth is round if it's really flat. What is achieved by perpetuating the lie?

It's all a great conspiracy so governments all over the world can continue to fund all kinds of different  endeavors and keep the cash coming in or something like that.
This standard answer of the flat Earthers is lame, exceedingly so.  In the first place, there is no explanation for WHY lying/conspiring about the Earth being round would bring in much cash.  Certainly the claim the Earth is flat has not raised much money.  Why would a preposterous conspiracy that also includes all governments and all explorers and travelers, all sailors who have circumnavigated the Earth, from Magellan until today, would also have to be 'in on it.'  There have been hundreds of thousands of such circumnavigations.  Somehow the secret has been kept.  :D

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2020, 01:55:24 AM »
Yep. Our position on the matter is that astronomy is a peudoscience for whomever may practice it - https://wiki.tfes.org/Astronomy_is_a_Pseudoscience

Einstein proposes the general theory of relativity and astronomers confirm it my making experimental measurements is pseudoscience?

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fscx2.b-cdn.net%2Fgfx%2Fnews%2F2017%2Feinsteinsimp.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fphys.org%2Fnews%2F2017-06-einstein-theory-relativity.html&tbnid=iGojnHJyjRVVkM&vet=12ahUKEwin6eeaq8ztAhWJVKwKHXvgBcEQMygAegUIARCnAQ..i&docid=lzhv-X1PMYG1DM&w=1500&h=857&q=confirmation%20of%20einstein%27s%20theory%20of%20relativity&ved=2ahUKEwin6eeaq8ztAhWJVKwKHXvgBcEQMygAegUIARCnAQ

Zeteticism differs from the usual scientific method in that using zeteticism one bases his conclusions on experimentation and observation rather than on an initial theory that is to be proved or disproved. A zetetic forms the question then immediately sets to work making observations and performing experiments to answer that question, rather than speculating on what the answer might be then testing that out.

It looks like Einstein and some astronomers are engaged in zeteticism.  Einstein came up with the question and the astronomers are providing the meaningful observations.  So I would translate your pseudoscience assertion to mean that the zetetic way is also pseudoscience.     

A normal laboratory scientist would setup a specific state in a device (perform an experiment) then alter that state and observe what happens.  If what happens is expected & predicted by a scientist then a theory or part of a theory may be confirmed.  It's hard to move a planet or star into a particular desired state so an astronomer can only observe and has no influence on a bodies state to perform an experiment.  An astronomer could come up with a theory of how light or gravity works, for example, and then search around to find a particular alignment or natural state of bodies to confirm a theory just like a laboratory scientist would but with a lot less control of the conditions of the experiment.  For that reason being an astronomer is actually a more difficult discipline than being a laboratory scientist.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 04:59:53 AM by RonJ »
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2020, 02:48:49 AM »
The round-earth position has major implications on the way we live.

At present, we are told we're a short-lived species, living on a minuscule ball of rock hurtling through an unfathomably massive galaxy - in an unfathomably massive universe - and that all of the answers regarding the formation of this improbably vast expanse are 'out there' to be discovered, maybe, by sending tiny probes to far off asteroids. etc.

Or put another way, 'you're insignificant, really, in the grand scheme of things.'

Alternatively, we're not on a small lump of rock, the solar system is local, the Earth is special, and we're more important than a fleeting moment in the history of the planet.

I reckon the round-earth position is easier to market to. Life is short. So buy Starbucks; get into debt; fall in line.

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2020, 02:56:34 AM »
I totally get that it can be (un)easy to feel insignificantly small compared to the universe, but if that worldview is part of a kind of marketing hoax, what's the flip side?

If you're right and the solar system is local, earth is special, and we're more important than a fleeting moment in history...how does that make it different?

Is there pressure now to be more successful, be a better person, help out our fellow man? Is it all part of a larger plan, and if so, do we really have any say in anything?

Those are over the top, granted, but I'm curious, how does (should?) knowing the earth is flat and were more important shape (y)our worldview?

Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2020, 03:16:16 AM »
I'm curious, how does (should?) knowing the earth is flat and were more important shape (y)our worldview?
If you're genuinely curious, then ask yourself the same question. If you were to discover that Earth - and by extension, you - were the centre of the universe - would that change your worldview?

And I suppose the bigger question then is: would that worldview be harder to keep in line? Would a certain agenda be harder to enforce? If so, there's one potential reason for the round-earth hoax (to answer the original question).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 03:19:13 AM by HonestTruth »

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2020, 03:39:09 AM »
Yeah it was just curiosity - I dont think there is a 'right' way to approach dealing with the realities we all face on a day to day basis.

Personally, seeing myself as a single person on a huge planet that is infinitesimally small compared to the rest of the universe, it's very humbling but I also see it as an extremely fortunate chance. A chance to do anything. Despite that, I underachieve. I try to be a good person (I do okay at it - im nice at the very least). And I do it because it's just the right thing to do. It's how I hope people will treat me.

Theres no points for doing it, or a golden ticket to Valhalla waiting for me. We get our chance, to make the best use we can of the time were given on this watery rock, then that's it.

The control issue is always an interesting question... powerful groups, be they religious, military, or political, will use anything they can my take is that being a small part of a large universe gives them the least power over me, but that's an entirely different tin of beans.

Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2020, 10:24:55 PM »
I'm sure many of those personal achievements you're striving for - however noble - are formed on the basis of how you see your place in the universe.

But let's hypothetically say that it became clear that the FE theory was correct, and the Earth held a vastly more important place in the universe as compared to the RE model of relative insignificance, how do you think that would change the conversation on topics such as climate change, conflict, or any number of other issues facing society?


Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2020, 07:13:16 AM »
Okay, I can't really miss my opportunity to chime in here.  To answer the threads creator, it's not an easy answer.   It's almost a little sad really.  Why aren't all people and all children told the truth about everything and everybody all the time?  Because sometimes that may not benefit the well being of the child or everyone at large.

   It's my belief that the round earth phenomenon was propped up after WW2 in an effort to separate two warring bodies of people.  The great thing about science is that you don't really need a textbook to get to the truth.   And the better news is I think the world is ready for the truth and anything held "top secret" no longer needs to be hidden.  The knee jerk reaction we all share when first learning about flat earth theory is slowly fading and a more intelligent/friendly conversation can commence.

I can just also say, learning about other science ideas has not changed me.   It's just made me a more understanding person.
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2020, 03:30:05 PM »
Okay, I can't really miss my opportunity to chime in here.  To answer the threads creator, it's not an easy answer.   It's almost a little sad really.  Why aren't all people and all children told the truth about everything and everybody all the time?  Because sometimes that may not benefit the well being of the child or everyone at large.

   It's my belief that the round earth phenomenon was propped up after WW2 in an effort to separate two warring bodies of people.  The great thing about science is that you don't really need a textbook to get to the truth.   And the better news is I think the world is ready for the truth and anything held "top secret" no longer needs to be hidden.  The knee jerk reaction we all share when first learning about flat earth theory is slowly fading and a more intelligent/friendly conversation can commence.

I can just also say, learning about other science ideas has not changed me.   It's just made me a more understanding person.

People have been successfully navigating their way around the world based on RET for over 500 years. WWII has nothing to do with it.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2020, 04:51:39 PM »
The great thing about science is that you don't really need a textbook to get to the truth.   

Indeed you do not. Go outside on a starry night with a weighted string and a protractor, and measure the angle between the horizon and the North star (assuming you're in the northern hemisphere). That angle will almost exactly equal your latitude, wherever you are in the northern hemisphere. Check the result on a map, or google maps etc. Ask your self how that exercise would be possible if the earth was flat.

If you're really keen, jump in a car and drive for a few hours north or south of your starting position. For every 69 miles north or south (ie 60 nautical miles), your measured latitude will change by one degree. Again, ask yourself how that would be possible on a flat earth.

It's possible because the earth is (roughly) spherical, and its axis of rotation is aligned with the distant bright start that we call the north star. It isn't flat. 

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2020, 05:32:58 PM »

Indeed you do not. Go outside on a starry night with a weighted string and a protractor, and measure the angle between the horizon and the North star (assuming you're in the northern hemisphere). That angle will almost exactly equal your latitude, wherever you are in the northern hemisphere. Check the result on a map, or google maps etc. Ask your self how that exercise would be possible if the earth was flat.


FE will answer that with EA and bendy light.


If you're really keen, jump in a car and drive for a few hours north or south of your starting position. For every 69 miles north or south (ie 60 nautical miles), your measured latitude will change by one degree. Again, ask yourself how that would be possible on a flat earth.


The monopole map is accurate in the N-S direction.  Where the monopole map fails is longitudinally the further south you travel from the north pole.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 08:16:24 PM by WTF_Seriously »
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2020, 09:47:40 PM »
Quote
FE will answer that with EA and bendy light.

There is so much wrong with the bendy light hypothesis it's difficult to know where to start.

Quote
The monopole map is accurate in the N-S direction.

In terms of distances, it may well be. The problem for FET comes from the measured 'altitude' (ie elevation angle) of polaris from different points. If you stand at the north pole and look for Polaris, you will see it almost directly above you, at essentially 90 degrees (it's actually a touch under, but never mind), hence your latitude of 90N. If I'm at the southern tip of Greenland, 60N, and you phone me up and ask for a sighting on Polaris, I'll measure it at 60 degrees. That has to work for FET too. The problem for FET though is that, because you and I are allegedly standing on the same flat surface, we should be able to triangulate and thereby measure the distance to Polaris. We're 1800 nautical miles apart, looking at something that subtends an angle of 30 degrees between us. It must be 3600nm to Polaris.

But the problem now is that if I go to 30N and repeat the exercise, there is now 3600nm between me and you and I'm sighting Polaris at 30 degrees, which means Polaris must be 4157 miles away. We get a different result depending on where we sight from.

So, presumably, at this point the FET proponents would invoke bendy light (although the wiki seems to invoke perspective, which just makes no sense whatsoever, as the angular distance between the stars remains the same). So your sighting at the north pole is correct, because the wiki EA page shows the lines going vertically up, but then the light curves as I get closer and closer to the equator. So my challenge to the FET proponents is to come up with a definitive rule for the EA curvature that completely explains the apparent positions of the various stars, as well as the sun and the moon, which we know to be close to the earth as it obscure the stars. The truth is that they can't, because you would require different curvatures to explain different things in different places. Moreover, this magical correcting curvature would be easily testable - you could just shine a light across a long flat surface and observe a measurable curvature. But of course that doesn't happen, because EA doesn't exist, and the earth isn't flat.   

Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2020, 10:12:47 AM »
I’m not questioning your calculations or the results, but it would help understanding if you also mention the apparent height of Polaris above the North Pole as calculated from these positions. At 60 degrees north, Polaris is apparently 3,118 miles above the pole and at 30 degrees north it’s apparently 2,078 miles above a flat earth pole. So Polaris goes up and down in height as an observer on a flat earth travels towards and away from the pole. Similar problems beset calculations of the sun’s height above a flat earth, but Samuel Whirling Roundbottom didn’t mention these in ENAG.
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.