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Offline Iceman

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Gyroscopes - science and applications
« on: November 19, 2020, 07:55:55 PM »
Gyros have come up a lot in several different topics in the FE Theory board so I figured I'd make a topic here to discuss the application of gyros to the discussion of the shape of the earth, as well as any issues anyone has with the science that underpins their use.

I've seen numerous examples from people on both side of the debate attempting to use gyros to validate claims so I figured a one-stop shop for all things gyro-related might be worthwhile.

I'll start: the gyro mounted within early Russian rockets caused it to accidentally trigger the emergency ejection of the crew module 27 minutes after a failed launch attempt, where the rocket never left the launch pad. The rotation of the earth made it appear as if the rocket was off course compared to it's intended trajectory of it had actually launched.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2020, 05:49:40 PM »
Interesting accident - I hadn't heard of that one. That kind of gyro error is known as apparent wander, and is well known and understood by gyro-driven navigation system designers and users. Gyros, both the traditional moving-part type and the more modern ring laser design, are affected by the rotation of the earth and by an aircraft (or spacecraft, or boat etc) moving around the globe, creating an error known as transport wander. All of these things are well documented, their correction is a fundamental part of the design of numerous navigation systems, and they are of course completely inconsistent with a non-rotating flat earth. I have never seen a credible FET explanation for any of this, probably because there isn't one.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2020, 06:14:19 PM »
This claim appears to have something to do with a space agency and gyroscopes in space, so that's an automatic dismissal from me, personally. But, if the earth is spinning, that should be recognizable on terrestrial gyroscopes without the need of alleged truth from a space agency.

In the following video several gyroscope tests are tried, including one with a rotating platform on a very slow 24 hour clock. It was found that the gyroscope could detect the rotation of the rotating platform, but not the rotation of the earth without the presence of that rotating platform. The 'official' RE explanation to this is that... well I don't believe there is one.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 06:31:54 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2020, 06:46:33 PM »
@Tom Bishop

As a gyro of sorts, care to explain how FE theory reconciles the fact that a Foucault Pendulum rotates clockwise in the northern lattitudes, doesn't near the equator, and rotates counterclockwise in the southern lattitudes?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 06:50:46 PM by WTF_Seriously »
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2020, 06:58:15 PM »
@Tom Bishop

As a gyro of sorts, care to explain how FE theory reconciles the fact that a Foucault Pendulum rotates clockwise in the northern lattitudes, doesn't near the equator, and rotates counterclockwise in the southern lattitudes?

I'm not sure that is true. See our page on that topic: https://wiki.tfes.org/Foucault_Pendulum
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2020, 07:10:19 PM »
@Tom Bishop

As a gyro of sorts, care to explain how FE theory reconciles the fact that a Foucault Pendulum rotates clockwise in the northern lattitudes, doesn't near the equator, and rotates counterclockwise in the southern lattitudes?

I'm not sure that is true. See our page on that topic: https://wiki.tfes.org/Foucault_Pendulum

Yet when Foucault pendulums are started at various lattitudes repeatedly they tend to rotate not only in the expected direction but also at the expected frequency for the lattitude.  If the phenomenon was strictly based on initial conditions, you wouldn't get the repeatablility you see.
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

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Online stack

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2020, 07:10:29 PM »
This claim appears to have something to do with a space agency and gyroscopes in space, so that's an automatic dismissal from me, personally. But, if the earth is spinning, that should be recognizable on terrestrial gyroscopes without the need of alleged truth from a space agency.

In the following video several gyroscope tests are tried, including one with a rotating platform on a very slow 24 hour clock. It was found that the gyroscope could detect the rotation of the rotating platform, but not the rotation of the earth without the presence of that rotating platform. The 'official' RE explanation to this is that... well I don't believe there is one.



It seems that Globe Busters, the original maker of the video experiment you referenced, has taken down this one. Probably because of the debacle that occurred in the documentary, "Behind the Curve", where Bob Knodel (Globe Buster) is caught on camera stating that a ring laser gyro they had acquired was indeed showing earth rotation as predicted by RE.

Bob Knodel:
"The community actually purchased one for twenty thousand dollars but what we found is is when we turned on that gyroscope we found that we were picking up a drift a 15-degree per hour drift now obviously we were taken aback by that Wow that's kind of a problem right...
We want to have proved there's no curvature and if we can do that it's game over but the rotation is not looking good at this point we don't want to blow this you know right and they've got twenty thousand dollars and his freaking gyro better yeah if we if we dumped what we found right now we would be, it'd be bad it would be bad, so what I just told you is confidential.
"

Full clip here:

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2020, 07:16:00 PM »
Mechanical Gyroscopes don't see the rotation of the Earth.

Ring Laser Gyroscopes do claim do see earth rotation, but functioning on a different principle of interpretation - https://wiki.tfes.org/Ring_Laser_Gyroscope

You have been here for a while and already knew that all of this was long addressed. The fact that mechanical gyroscopes don't see it and you have to rely on these indirect methods is evidence that the earth is not rotating.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2020, 07:17:55 PM »
All you have to do is lookup the info on Anshutz or Sperry marine gyros.  Admittedly the service information that's available on the internet isn't nearly as good as what's supplied with the units themselves, but the basic fact is that a ship's directional gyro requires that the earth rotates to work correctly.  If these units are shut down and dismantled during a routine maintenance procedure you can see that these are very professionally made pieces of equipment.  After everything is put back together and the gyro is fired up it typically takes many hours for everything to stabilize and for the instrument to start giving meaningful readings again. Now the main desirable output is just the ship's bearing relative to geographical North, but there is other information available if you have access to the service port. It was my job to keep track of the gyros on board and make sure they were outputting accurate readings to the ship's internal data buss.  Typically the 2 or 3 gyros aboard would be within 0.5 degrees with each other and would agree with the known heading of the berth when we were doing cargo operations.  If I were to access the service port while at the dock in the USA and again at the dock in China, for example, it was clear that the readings indicated that the earth was spherical.  Then after the trip back to the USA other reading were taken that was almost the exact image of the original reading at the dock in the USA. I have been on multiple ships (nothing to do with the government or NASA) and my readings were typical of what would be expected.  If a gyro was off 1 degree or so and wouldn't hold an adjustment, then it was time for maintenance. After that was done then usually everything would be back to normal again.  These are just my personal observations over many, many years.  This is an unambiguous indication that the earth is spherical and rotating.  Gyros are just heartless pieces of electro-mechanical machinery and just follows the rules of physics and doesn't really care what the shape of the happens to be.  The Gyros is always had an unanimous vote for a rotating & spherical earth.  I'm simply reporting what I would see on a routine basis.

PS:  You are incorrect about a mechanical gyro not detecting a rotating earth.  Most all the older ship's gyros were mechanical and did detect that the earth was not only rotating, but spherical. 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 07:22:58 PM by RonJ »
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2020, 07:24:10 PM »
@Tom Bishop

As a gyro of sorts, care to explain how FE theory reconciles the fact that a Foucault Pendulum rotates clockwise in the northern lattitudes, doesn't near the equator, and rotates counterclockwise in the southern lattitudes?

I'm not sure that is true. See our page on that topic: https://wiki.tfes.org/Foucault_Pendulum

Yet when Foucault pendulums are started at various lattitudes repeatedly they tend to rotate not only in the expected direction but also at the expected frequency for the lattitude.  If the phenomenon was strictly based on initial conditions, you wouldn't get the repeatablility you see.

The sources in the link say that the repeatability and reliability is false.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2020, 07:32:49 PM »
@Tom Bishop

As a gyro of sorts, care to explain how FE theory reconciles the fact that a Foucault Pendulum rotates clockwise in the northern lattitudes, doesn't near the equator, and rotates counterclockwise in the southern lattitudes?

I'm not sure that is true. See our page on that topic: https://wiki.tfes.org/Foucault_Pendulum

Yet when Foucault pendulums are started at various lattitudes repeatedly they tend to rotate not only in the expected direction but also at the expected frequency for the lattitude.  If the phenomenon was strictly based on initial conditions, you wouldn't get the repeatablility you see.

The sources in the link say that the repeatability and reliability is false.

I can't argue with the pillar of science Lady Blount.
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

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Online stack

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2020, 07:39:26 PM »
Mechanical Gyroscopes don't see the rotation of the Earth.

Ring Laser Gyroscopes do claim do see earth rotation, but functioning on a different principle of interpretation - https://wiki.tfes.org/Ring_Laser_Gyroscope

You have been here for a while and already knew that all of this was long addressed. The fact that mechanical gyroscopes don't see it and you have to rely on these indirect methods is evidence that the earth is not rotating.

You are incorrect. Mechanical gyroscopes do detect earth's rotation.

Just a few of the many references in the Sperry Mechanical Gyroscope Manual, Gyro-compass Mark XIV, Mod. 1, 17-1400D, 1944. Used on most ships in WWII

OPERATING PRINCIPLES OF THE GYRO-COMPASS
22. In the Gyro-Compass the characteristics of the gyroscope, "inertia" and "precession", which we have just explained, are combined with two constant, natural phenomena -- the earth's rotation and the force of gravity, with the result that the instrument aligns itself with the geographic meridian and provides a constant true north indication regardless of the rolling, pitching, and yawing of the vessel.

The horizontal component of the earth's rotation causes the north end of the axle to rise. The vertical component causes it to turn to the east.

SHIP'S SPEED AND COURSE

55. It has been shown that the relatively slow angular movement of the earth's rotation (only one revolution in 24 hours) provides the motive force for the north-seeking precessional movement of the compass.



https://maritime.org/doc/gyromk14/index.htm

So yes, mechanical gyroscopes do show earth's rotation and that element is critical to many features and functions of the gyroscope’s usefulness in navigation.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 07:41:34 PM by stack »
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2020, 07:51:05 PM »
Nope. That's not the same experiment as in the video I showed, and is not registering opposite results.

The gyrocompass is a different kind of device and claims to have a North-seeking element.

Rather than staying static in space while the earth rotates beneath it like the static mechanical gyroscope in the video, it is claimed that the gyrocompass actively seeks North.

See your quote:

Quote
55. It has been shown that the relatively slow angular movement of the earth's rotation (only one revolution in 24 hours) provides the motive force for the north-seeking precessional movement of the compass.

So we see that you have to bring up different kinds of experiments and devices and say "What about THIS?" rather than simply contradicting the experiment shown.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2020, 08:13:24 PM »
it is claimed that the gyrocompass actively seeks North.
A gyro compass actively seeks North because the earth rotates.  That's not my opinion, that's the 'opinion' of the gyroscope.  It follows the rules of physics, seeks North and gives you other information as well. A good gyro compass can provide so much more if you know where to look.  When the service port is accessed other comprehensive information is available that unambiguously indicates that the earth is spherical.  That's not my opinion, it's just what multiple instruments say.  If you have 2 or 3 instruments all telling you the same thing, it's a really good idea to believe them!  If sufficient time is spent it's possible to understand how a marine gyro compass works internally.  Unfortunately, what's available on the internet isn't nearly as good as the information that you have when you have the manufacturer's service manuals.  Some of these manuals are quite comprehensive and they always work as advertised.  I've worked around dozens of these instruments and they seldom let us down.   

I have worked a lot with both Sperry and Anschutz gyrocompass units.  The compass in the video wasn't set up correctly, as near as I could tell from the video.  It was hard to see all the details.  Some marine gyro spheres actually have two separate gyros installed at 45 degree angles.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 08:47:14 PM by RonJ »
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2020, 08:36:49 PM »
Mechanical Gyroscopes don't see the rotation of the Earth.


They most definitely do. As long as a gyro's spin axis is not aligned with the earth's axis of rotation, and a long as it has the freedom to rotate via a gimbal assembly or similar, then it will be appear to change orientation as the earth rotates. Aircraft directional gyros, for example, often have either a fixed 'drift nut' (sometimes known as a 'latitude nut' which is adjusted during maintenance to match the local latitude, or sometimes have a cockpit-selectable dial where latitude can be set. This sets a correcting force which causes an equal and opposite precession to that caused by the earth's rotation. Here's an old manual: http://ed-thelen.org/pics4/C1Gyro-ro.pdf. Take a look at page 6, for example:

Quote
The latitude corrector (10, figure 2) is a calibrated nut which may be adjusted in or out on a threaded stud (11) on the gyro hous- ing to minimize gyro drift due to the earth1 s rotation. This dri:ft is zero at the equator and a maximum at the poles.

The important thing to note is, of course, that if the earth doesn't rotate as promised, the drift correction system will induce a significant error in the system, which is clearly not what is wanted.

There's some other good explanations here: https://www.pilot18.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/2-INS-Gyro-Instruments.pdf (section 3.5) and here: https://www.pilot18.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/2-INS-Gyro-Instruments.pdf

I can't really comment on what's going on in that video you linked to. They don't really show what the equipment is, or what it's actually doing, so it's very difficult to work out why they didn't see any rotation. That said, given the narrator's triumphalism at not finding anything, they don't seem like objective researchers with open minds. On the other hand, are you not even a tiny bit open to the possibility that all these different aviation instrument experts might be on to something? Why would they go to the bother of designing correction systems that make their instruments worse? And why would people use them? It would be very obvious if they didn't work as advertised.