*

Online stack

  • *
  • Posts: 1907
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2020, 12:41:15 AM »
Quote from: WTF_Seriously
Incorrect. You can measure ocean current with a stationary device. You need no information about distance whatsoever. It’s called math and science.  You should look into it sometime.

Source? What device was used?

In general, several methods are used. Ask NOAA:

How do we monitor currents?
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/currentmon.html#:~:text=The%20Acoustic%20Doppler%20Current%20Profiler,off%20particles%20in%20the%20water.

As well, I think the Global Ocean Observing System (GOOS) plays a role. They've got a gajillion buoys and such all over the seas and oceans constantly collecting data. Their network looks like this:


https://www.goosocean.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=24&Itemid=123


Quote from: stack
I know I'm correct because those folks know they are correct

In other words you are admitting that you don't know that you are correct. I see.

No, I'm admitting that the sailors know they are correct as the race and their lives depend on it. Do you personally know everything is correct in ENAG?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 8248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2020, 12:50:05 AM »
Not many moored buoys in the SH there. Looks like a loss on your part.

Quote
No, I'm admitting that the sailors know they are correct as the race and their lives depend on it.

You are admitting that you are relying on third party knowledge, which you assume to be correct according to your own faith.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

*

Online stack

  • *
  • Posts: 1907
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2020, 01:04:34 AM »
Not many moored buoys in the SH there. Looks like a loss on your part.

Who said moored buoys are the only way to collect data? In any case, actually the loss is for you to have and to hold. They've got plenty of collection points:



Quote
No, I'm admitting that the sailors know they are correct as the race and their lives depend on it.

You are admitting that you are relying on third party knowledge, which you assume to be correct according to your own faith.

That would be second party knowledge. The first party being the sailors and their successful predictable movements from points A to B throughout the 70 some odd days of the race. Are you a second party to Rowbotham's data, which you assume to be correct according to your own faith?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline WTF_Seriously

  • *
  • Posts: 149
  • Sorry folks. The Earth is round
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #43 on: December 25, 2020, 07:21:43 PM »
Quote from: WTF_Seriously
Incorrect. You can measure ocean current with a stationary device. You need no information about distance whatsoever. It’s called math and science.  You should look into it sometime.

Source? What device was used?


Not to difficult to find a link regarding ocean current measuring devices.

https://uskess.whoi.edu/components/cpies/

Your continued attempt at discrediting years of ocean research is getting ridiculous.  It's really beginning to make you look rather foolish.

I'll paraphrase an argument you made in another post.  Are you more knowledgeable about the oceans than all of these ocean research institutes?  If not, then who are you to say that they are wrong?

The onus is now on you, Tom.  No more of the B.S.  You've been given plenty of accurate data.  If you want to argue the data further then it's now up to you to provide proveable references and sources from knowledgeable, qualified people explaining exactly how the stated low velocity ACC estimates are incorrect.  Simple statements or questions will simply be viewed as irrelevant and meaningless to the debate and as an admission that you have nothing to refute the current accepted values of the ACC. Actual sources and data are what is now required of you to continue your line of defense.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 07:31:16 PM by WTF_Seriously »
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 8248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2020, 08:01:37 PM »
Not many moored buoys in the SH there. Looks like a loss on your part.

Who said moored buoys are the only way to collect data? In any case, actually the loss is for you to have and to hold. They've got plenty of collection points:



I don't see any evidence that those are fixed.

https://www.aoml.noaa.gov/phod/argo/

"Argo is an international program that calls for the deployment of 3,000 free drifting profiling floats, distributed over the global oceans, which will measure the temperature and salinity in the upper 2,000m of the ocean providing 100,000 T/S profiles and reference velocity measurements per year."

And there is a distinction between platforms and fixed platforms:



Quote from: WTF_Seriously
Incorrect. You can measure ocean current with a stationary device. You need no information about distance whatsoever. It’s called math and science.  You should look into it sometime.

Source? What device was used?


Not to difficult to find a link regarding ocean current measuring devices.

https://uskess.whoi.edu/components/cpies/

That says nothing about oceans of the Southern Hemisphere.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 08:30:05 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline WTF_Seriously

  • *
  • Posts: 149
  • Sorry folks. The Earth is round
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2020, 08:26:41 PM »

That says nothing about oceans of the Southern Hemisphere.

Simple statements or questions will simply be viewed as irrelevant and meaningless to the debate and as an admission that you have nothing to refute the current accepted values of the ACC. Actual sources and data are what is now required of you to continue your line of defense.
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 8248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #46 on: December 25, 2020, 08:31:38 PM »

That says nothing about oceans of the Southern Hemisphere.

Simple statements or questions will simply be viewed as irrelevant and meaningless to the debate and as an admission that you have nothing to refute the current accepted values of the ACC. Actual sources and data are what is now required of you to continue your line of defense.

I don't see anything about the ACC in the link you provided: https://uskess.whoi.edu/components/cpies/

Please quote it for us.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline WTF_Seriously

  • *
  • Posts: 149
  • Sorry folks. The Earth is round
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #47 on: December 25, 2020, 08:38:33 PM »

That says nothing about oceans of the Southern Hemisphere.

Simple statements or questions will simply be viewed as irrelevant and meaningless to the debate and as an admission that you have nothing to refute the current accepted values of the ACC. Actual sources and data are what is now required of you to continue your line of defense.

I don't see anything about the ACC in the link you provided: https://uskess.whoi.edu/components/cpies/

Please quote it for us.

Simple statements or questions will simply be viewed as irrelevant and meaningless to the debate and as an admission that you have nothing to refute the current accepted values of the ACC. Actual sources and data are what is now required of you to continue your line of defense.
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2020, 05:10:31 PM »
Well, instead of arguing about this endless buoys debate, here is another one:
If the currents were that strong in the SH oceans, how do you explain they looked for Escoffier, who was on an inflatable survival boat, around a stationary point for 12 hours. With a strong 20 knots current, we would have seen the 4 boats looking for him moving by 200 miles between Nov 30th 14:00 UTC and Dec 1st 2:UTC .

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 8248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2020, 06:04:56 PM »
Well, instead of arguing about this endless buoys debate, here is another one:
If the currents were that strong in the SH oceans, how do you explain they looked for Escoffier, who was on an inflatable survival boat, around a stationary point for 12 hours. With a strong 20 knots current, we would have seen the 4 boats looking for him moving by 200 miles between Nov 30th 14:00 UTC and Dec 1st 2:UTC .

Assuming that I can find a sufficient stretch of highway, I can drive 200 miles in three hours at 67mph, and it would seem to me in my car that I am not moving that much over the duration.

Why not relative motion of winds and water of 200 miles over 12 hours?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline WTF_Seriously

  • *
  • Posts: 149
  • Sorry folks. The Earth is round
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2020, 07:21:20 PM »
Well, instead of arguing about this endless buoys debate, here is another one:
If the currents were that strong in the SH oceans, how do you explain they looked for Escoffier, who was on an inflatable survival boat, around a stationary point for 12 hours. With a strong 20 knots current, we would have seen the 4 boats looking for him moving by 200 miles between Nov 30th 14:00 UTC and Dec 1st 2:UTC .

Assuming that I can find a sufficient stretch of highway, I can drive 200 miles in three hours at 67mph, and it would seem to me in my car that I am not moving that much over the duration.

Why not relative motion of winds and water of 200 miles over 12 hours?

Perhaps you misunderstood the post.  What we would have witnessed in a 15-20 knot current would have been a search zone that traveled 200 miles over the course of the search.  What actually occurred was that Escoffier was actually found near where he reported going in the water.

Since your going to say, "How do you know he was found close to where he went in the water." I went back to the date on the tracker map.  You can see the track of Yes We Cam, the boat that found him.  His search path covers less than 1/2 a degree longitude which is around 25 miles at 40 deg. S.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 07:38:29 PM by WTF_Seriously »
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1384
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2020, 08:40:42 PM »
I have been watching the race myself and the winds & seas conditions encountered.  What I see would be far from 'roaring'  conditions.  When you see 1 to 4 meter seas & average winds in the Southern seas you have good sailing conditions.  The boats are making good progress on a daily basis.  You can easily use the displayed race maps to measure distances between the longitude lines.  My measurements indicate that the lines are converging the further South you go.  You can see the indicated distances made good, according to the data sent back.  It's also possible to see the track from the 2016 race that was completed on day 74.  A study of the chart with the noon to noon positions marked is possible and distance measurements made.  These all match the ballpark speeds of 16 to 18 knots.  That is impressive for a wind powered vessel (blow boat).  Many powered ocean going ships don't go much faster. 

The bottom line that I see here is, if the earth is flat with a monopole model, then the race times & distances all have to be faked.  Ocean currents are not a viable line of defense to make up the disparity between the required distances to be traveled on a flat earth map in 74 days.  Yes, there are ocean currents out there, but they are fairly narrow and are only about 3 or 4 knots.  The chances that a sail boat would both have a favorable current and a wind for a long time are about zero. There is no way to complete the race on a flat earth map in the time indicated unless the race data is being faked, or the earth is a sphere, as indicated on the race map.  Use your best judgement as to which possibility to believe.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 08:42:40 PM by RonJ »
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2020, 09:49:44 PM »
Well, instead of arguing about this endless buoys debate, here is another one:
If the currents were that strong in the SH oceans, how do you explain they looked for Escoffier, who was on an inflatable survival boat, around a stationary point for 12 hours. With a strong 20 knots current, we would have seen the 4 boats looking for him moving by 200 miles between Nov 30th 14:00 UTC and Dec 1st 2:UTC .

Assuming that I can find a sufficient stretch of highway, I can drive 200 miles in three hours at 67mph, and it would seem to me in my car that I am not moving that much over the duration.

Why not relative motion of winds and water of 200 miles over 12 hours?

Perhaps you misunderstood the post.  What we would have witnessed in a 15-20 knot current would have been a search zone that traveled 200 miles over the course of the search.  What actually occurred was that Escoffier was actually found near where he reported going in the water.

Since your going to say, "How do you know he was found close to where he went in the water." I went back to the date on the tracker map.  You can see the track of Yes We Cam, the boat that found him.  His search path covers less than 1/2 a degree longitude which is around 25 miles at 40 deg. S.

Thank you, I never thought it would have been a necessity to explain something so obvious.

Also, catching stronger winds doesn't always relate to faster speed. At some point, the see becomes to rough and sails can't withstand so much force. Sailors are obliged to reduce their sails size to slow down and protect their boat.

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12603
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2020, 11:16:09 PM »
Please alter your post to remove the words "as per FES wiki" from your diagram. It is not an accurate description of what is being proposed, and this sort of deception will not be allowed. Similarly, I am asking you to eliminate any suggestions that your imagination here is in any way supported by the Wiki. Thanks.

EDIT: Since this request was rejected, the post is being moved down to CN where it belongs. Longitube, you're welcome to recreate your post without misleading others about the views being proposed by your opponents.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 07:06:19 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
<Parsifal> I don't understand any of it but the symbols look nice

Offline SteelyBob

  • *
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2020, 05:37:19 PM »
Quote
It is not an accurate description of what is being proposed

What is an accurate description of what is being proposed?

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 8248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2020, 05:53:15 PM »
I have been watching the race myself and the winds & seas conditions encountered.  What I see would be far from 'roaring'  conditions.

This comment here seems to discard the possibility of relative motion. Do you notice "roaring" conditions inside of your car when traveling at 60mph?

Over the eons, would would it be possible at all for the winds and water in such a current to standardize to similar velocities?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1384
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: Vendée Globe
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2020, 06:28:16 PM »
Do I see 'roaring conditions' when in my car at 60 mph?, why yes, if I roll the window down.  I used to have a convertible and conditions were 'roaring' with the top down as well.  Some people like that, as I did, 40 years ago. 
I haven't lived for eons but in my thousands of days at sea over the last 20 years things haven't standardized.  There were times when I would be out for 120 days and the vast majority of the time we were in gentle sea conditions.  You can sometimes say to another sailor 'May you have fair winds and following seas'.  This is what you want.  Other times there would be typhoon after typhoon along the way and we did the best to avoid the worst of it so the cargo would stay on the ship undamaged.  There have been times when it was calm in the morning but one hour later the winds had picked up to 140+ knots and we were all hanging on the best we could.

The sailboat races are in fairly nice conditions.  Anytime you have seas less than 5 meters in that area you can thank your lucky stars.  King Neptune is a harsh task master and can surprise you very quickly and you better have your vessel rigged for heavy seas.  You never know what will happen out there.  I have seen times when we actually took the great circle route thru the Bering Sea that is notorious for being rough because conditions were even worse further South in the Pacific.  The Southern oceans can be the same.  Don't think that the winds & waters out there will standardize to anything.  King Neptune will never be that kind to a sailor.   
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.