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Offline Iceman2020

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Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« on: October 20, 2020, 01:07:58 PM »
Just came across this video that shows the orbital path of the ISS in both sphere and flat earth models.

***recommend muting volume so you dont have to hear the ridiculous added sound effects***



It's a pretty cool animation no matter how you look at it!

The downside is that it doesnt show day/night cycles along with the orbital path.

Curious if anyone has tried to model/visualize ISS paths with sun and moon path throughout the seasons?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 01:40:04 PM by Iceman2020 »
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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2020, 01:36:02 PM »
Holy shit that sound is annoying! Cool video though, if you put it on mute.

I'm interested in whether there's any FE thought about how the ISS is powered in their model. In RE it's in orbit so aside for occasional boosts as it loses height it doesn't need to do much to keep in orbit in terms of using fuel. With the path in the FE animation there would have to be fuel used constantly to keep changing its direction to go in those loops.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Iceman2020

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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2020, 01:44:29 PM »
Made a warning edit about the sound, because you're right, it's awful.

But yeah, that's what I was hoping to learn about.

From my understanding, based on the shape of the orbit of the ISS, there would have to be either some manual driving force to change the ISS' path over the course of multiple orbits, or there is some other force, different to that which controls the path of the sun and moon, to control its path.

I'm not claiming either of those to be right, or the only two options available. Just thought it was a cool video and it piqued my curiosity, so I put here here for alternative explanations and additional context hopefully!
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2020, 01:54:36 PM »
We already know that the Sun, Moon, and "Solar" system orbit around a point above the centre of the Earth - some presume it to be the centre of the Universe, but I prefer to call unknowns unknowns.

I'm not sure why you're looking for an alternative to orbital mechanics.
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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2020, 02:10:44 PM »
We already know that the Sun, Moon, and "Solar" system orbit around a point above the centre of the Earth

But that's not what the ISS is doing.
The sun's orbit keeps changing diameter for reasons which I don't think you have any real explanation for. That requires a force which keeps the sun's orbit diameter changing and keeps the speed of it changing so it keeps orbiting in 24 hours no matter the diameter.
Similarly, the ISS isn't just caught in a "whirlpool" or whatever you think is going on, the path shown above is pretty complicated and something which would require constant propulsion to keep it moving that way.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2020, 02:25:08 PM »
Similarly, the ISS isn't just caught in a "whirlpool" or whatever you think is going on, the path shown above is pretty complicated and something which would require constant propulsion to keep it moving that way.
It's not complicated at all. It's a fairly basic epicyclic pattern, identical to all orbital events around FE.
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Offline Iceman2020

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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2020, 06:00:24 PM »
Yeah so I can buy the idea that the shape that plots out above the FE map forms something akin to an encyclical orbit, but that begs the question as to why something that we launched would take that orbital path, while the sun and moon have simpler (near-circular) orbital paths, then the planets have much more complicated epicyclical paths.

Is there a fundamental/physical difference between these bodies? Does their altitude above earth affect the path?

I'll reiterate that I'm not trying to claim detailed knowledge of orbital mechanics, or set up some big 'gotcha' moment. Just saw that synced animation explaining the ISS path and got curious as to how other orbiting bodies would fit into the picture.

Thanks for any additional input
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Offline simon7495t

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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2020, 07:49:48 PM »
We already know that the Sun, Moon, and "Solar" system orbit around a point above the centre of the Earth - some presume it to be the centre of the Universe, but I prefer to call unknowns unknowns.

I'm not sure why you're looking for an alternative to orbital mechanics.
How do we see other Planets through a telescope that SHOWS that the planets are round, though? Being able to see surface details and atmospheres and their shape, how are other planets not flat, same with our Earth?  ::)

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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2020, 08:10:47 PM »
while the sun and moon have simpler (near-circular) orbital paths
I disagree that that's the case. The Sun and Moon also follow epicycles, just with a much slower period.
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Offline Iceman2020

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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2020, 09:17:26 PM »
Can you give me a link that explains the sun/moon epicycles? I've only seen the material from the wiki and similar models on youtube that have the sun and the moon moving in circular(ish) paths around the north pole, moving from tropic to tropic.
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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2020, 09:38:14 PM »
Can you give me a link that explains the sun/moon epicycles? I've only seen the material from the wiki and similar models on youtube that have the sun and the moon moving in circular(ish) paths around the north pole, moving from tropic to tropic.
There currently isn't one. But the "circular(ish)" pattern you describe is precisely (ish) because of its epicyclic nature.
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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2020, 09:55:13 PM »
Hmm. I'm having a hard time visualizing what the epicyles of the sun and moon would look like.

I realize it's not the only view out there, but the FAQ says the sun and moon move in circles around the north pole (in the day and night subsection of the page), hence my original question(s) and confusion around different potential mechanisms to explain the orbits of different bodies.
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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2020, 11:17:42 PM »
I realize it's not the only view out there, but the FAQ says the sun and moon move in circles around the north pole (in the day and night subsection of the page), hence my original question(s) and confusion around different potential mechanisms to explain the orbits of different bodies.
Yeah, "circles" is clearly a bad choice of words (especially since the question right after that shows the radius changing - so the motion clearly can't be plainly circular). I'll put that down to "it's all massively a work in progress, give us a few centuries".
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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2020, 01:00:15 AM »
Yeah, that's why I went with circle(ish) above, because they couldn't be quiiiite circular if theres the wander from tropic to tropic.

The crux of the question was about why the orbits of different objects take such drastically different shapes (or orbital period, as you've suggested).

But if there's no answer, theres no answer, I'll leave 'er there!

 
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2020, 03:49:11 AM »
There is an example diagram of FE's sun epicycle on https://wiki.tfes.org/Sun

Scroll down to the "Rendered Picture of the Sun in Relation to the Earth" section.

I don't really agree that it's an epicycle, however. I didn't come up with that.
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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2020, 08:35:11 AM »
Yeah so I can buy the idea that the shape that plots out above the FE map forms something akin to an encyclical orbit, but that begs the question as to why something that we launched would take that orbital path, while the sun and moon have simpler (near-circular) orbital paths, then the planets have much more complicated epicyclical paths.
But this all implies that NASA DO know that the earth is flat and have managed to get the ISS in orbit around the central point that other bodies orbit around. But for some reason they're covering up that discovery. And presumably they're completely faking other missions to other planets.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2020, 11:07:58 AM »
There is an example diagram of FE's sun epicycle on https://wiki.tfes.org/Sun

Scroll down to the "Rendered Picture of the Sun in Relation to the Earth" section.

I don't really agree that it's an epicycle, however. I didn't come up with that.

Whatever the wiki graphic may show, the Sun doesn’t move across the sky like that, it moves in a smooth arc from sunrise to sunset. An epicyclic path would have a wobbling sun that occasionally moved from west to east in the course of a day. Or stopped moving altogether!
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2020, 11:35:38 AM »
There is an example diagram of FE's sun epicycle on https://wiki.tfes.org/Sun

Scroll down to the "Rendered Picture of the Sun in Relation to the Earth" section.

I don't really agree that it's an epicycle, however. I didn't come up with that.

Thanks for adding that Tom, when i was searching for 'sun' in the wiki all that came up was the sun topics page which never brought me to that image.

Would you be willing to elaborate a bit for me? The diagram appears to show the sun and moon on the same orbital path (yellow line/circle) with an additional smaller yellow circle around the sun. What is the smaller yellow circle the sun sits on?

Thanks in advance
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Offline simon7495t

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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2020, 07:53:50 PM »
I'm confused on why the ISS never goes to the poles on the Round Earth.

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Re: Low earth orbits, vs. Sun and moon
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2020, 07:57:36 PM »
It was designed that way to keep the astronauts out of the polar regions where radiation in the Van Allen belt is closer to the earth's surface. (I just googled that, there are a bunch of explanations if you're more curious than that)

EDIT: a huge part of the reason is also just logistics and convenience.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 08:05:13 PM by Iceman2020 »
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