UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« on: October 16, 2020, 06:32:18 PM »
The wiki says about GTD:
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Gravitational time dilation is a phenomenon in which the difference of elapsed time manifests between two events as measured by observers situated at varying distances from the Earth. Time is seen to dilate in accord with the Equivalence Principle, which predicts that all physical effects which would occur in an upwardly accelerating rocket ship should also happen in a gravitational field. Since the time dilation of clocks would occur at different elevations inside of an upwardly accelerating rocket, it must occur at different elevations in the Earth's gravitational field as well. Supposedly only a 'local' effect, the Equivalence Principle and its uniform nature[1] has been confirmed over various elevations

This is all true, but it seems to be used as evidence for universal acceleration, when in fact, it’s the opposite and is pretty convincing evidence against it.

General Relativity says that time dilation is due to a difference in gravitational potential.  According to UA, there shouldn’t be any difference in gravitational potential.at various elevations across the surface of the earth.  The point is repeatedly made on this forum that there is no evidence of that the strength of gravity varies.  Ironically, the wiki itself provides evidence that it does.

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NIST Pair of Aluminum Atomic Clocks Reveal Einstein's Relativity at a Personal Scale (Archive)
  “ BOULDER, Colo. – Scientists have known for decades that time passes faster at higher elevations—a curious aspect of Einstein's theories of relativity that previously has been measured by comparing clocks on the Earth's surface and a high-flying rocket.
Now, physicists at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) have measured this effect at a more down-to-earth scale of 33 centimeters, or about 1 foot, demonstrating, for instance, that you age faster when you stand a couple of steps higher on a staircase.

If you age faster at the top of the stairs than the bottom of the stairs due to gravitational time dilation, that means there is a difference in the gravitational potential between the top and bottom of the stairs.  Something, that FE/UA consistently denies is possible.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2020, 12:08:59 AM »
In a rocket ship accelerating 'upwards' through space at 1G there would be a time difference between the floor and the ceiling of the rocket. The time difference occurs in a rocket accelerating uniformly.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration

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Gravitational Time Dilation

Gravitational Time Dilation is predicted by the Equivalence Principle, which suggests that two clocks at different altitudes will seem to measure time at different rates when compared to each other.

The Five Ages of the Universe: Inside the Physics of Eternity
By Fred C. Adams, PhD and Prof. Greg Laughlin

On p.116 of The Five Ages of the Universe (Archive), its authors describe gravitational time dilation by giving an analogy of an upwardly accelerating rocket in space which contains a clock attached to the ceiling and an astronaut sitting on the floor of the rocket with another clock. The astronaut on the floor first observes his own clock, and then observes the ceiling clock:

    “ however, he observes that the ceiling clock is running faster. The ceiling clock sends a tone (in the form of a radio wave) down to the floor. Because the floor is accelerating upwards, it intercepts the radio wave sooner than if the rocket were merely coasting along. If the acceleration continues, subsequent tones also arrive earlier than expected. In the viewpoint of the astronaut on the floor, the ceiling clock is broadcasting its time intervals at an increased rate, and is running fast compared to the floor clock.

    According to the equivalence principle, the phenomenon of mismatched clock rates, which occurs in response to the acceleration of a rocket, also occurs in a uniform gravitational field. The equivalence principle therefore insists on a seemingly bizarre conclusion. Two clocks at different heights above Earth's surface must measure the flow of time at different rates. This strange behavior is an intrinsic feature of gravity. The variation of the flow of time within a gravitational field is entirely independent of the mechanism used to measure time. Atomic clocks, quartz watches, and biological rhythms all experience the passage of time to be dilated or compressed in the same manner. ”

The authors explain that time dilation should be a natural consequence in an upwardly accelerating rocket, and acknowledge that its application to gravity on earth is "strange" and "bizarre".
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 12:11:20 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2020, 01:15:22 AM »
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In a rocket ship accelerating 'upwards' through space at 1G there would be a time difference between the floor and the ceiling of the rocket. The time difference occurs in a rocket accelerating uniformly.

I know.  My point is this same time difference between elevations occurs on earth and according to relativity, is due to differences in gravitational potential.

According to UA, there shouldn't be any differences in gravitational potential on the earth.  You've said so many times yourself.  But you own wiki provides evidence that there is.

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NIST Pair of Aluminum Atomic Clocks Reveal Einstein's Relativity at a Personal Scale (Archive)

  “ BOULDER, Colo. – Scientists have known for decades that time passes faster at higher elevations—a curious aspect of Einstein's theories of relativity that previously has been measured by comparing clocks on the Earth's surface and a high-flying rocket.

Now, physicists at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) have measured this effect at a more down-to-earth scale of 33 centimeters, or about 1 foot, demonstrating, for instance, that you age faster when you stand a couple of steps higher on a staircase.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Gravitational_Time_Dilation

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2020, 01:19:30 AM »
You agreed that time would dilate between the floor and ceiling in an upwardly accelerating rocket ship, so the same should occur between the floor and the ceiling in an experiment like NIST performed.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2020, 02:05:40 AM »
You agreed that time would dilate between the floor and ceiling in an upwardly accelerating rocket ship, so the same should occur between the floor and the ceiling in an experiment like NIST performed.

You're missing the point.

The NIST experiment showed that time dilation occurs at different elevations on earth; time dilation (according to relativity) is caused by different degrees of gravitational potential; therefore, the NIST experiment indicates that there are different degrees of gravitational potential at different elevations on the earth.

Different degrees of gravitational potential at different elevations on the earth, directly contradicts UA; the NIST experiment you cite on your wiki contradicts UA.

Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2020, 02:14:58 AM »
Time dilation really matters for GPS, small errors in their clocks results in large errors is distance. You know for those satellites that orbit a spherical earth, to communicate with your car, smartphone, Garmin, etc.  The timescale difference is negligible for most other situations, particularly age, unless we get much faster.
http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html#:~:text=Because%20an%20observer%20on%20the,see%20the%20Special%20Relativity%20lecture

Link to NIST article
https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2010/09/nist-pair-aluminum-atomic-clocks-reveal-einsteins-relativity-personal-scale


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2020, 02:46:05 AM »
You agreed that time would dilate between the floor and ceiling in an upwardly accelerating rocket ship, so the same should occur between the floor and the ceiling in an experiment like NIST performed.

You're missing the point.

The NIST experiment showed that time dilation occurs at different elevations on earth; time dilation (according to relativity) is caused by different degrees of gravitational potential; therefore, the NIST experiment indicates that there are different degrees of gravitational potential at different elevations on the earth.

Different degrees of gravitational potential at different elevations on the earth, directly contradicts UA; the NIST experiment you cite on your wiki contradicts UA.

If the time dilation results are the same between floor and ceiling measurements in an upwardly accelerating rocket ship and floor and ceiling measurements in a room on Earth, then what is your point? The NIST doesn't say that it detected a difference that deviated from the Equivalence Principle which that says results on Earth would not be different than an upwardly accelerating rocket ship.

Your argument seems to hinge on your interpretation of the phrase "gravitational potential," which is irrelevant, since the effect would be the same.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 03:13:54 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2020, 03:08:54 AM »
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If the time dilation results are the same between floor and ceiling measurements in an upwardly accelerating rocket ship and floor and ceiling measurements in a room on Earth, then what is your point? The NIST doesn't say that it detected a difference that deviated from the Equivalence Principle which that says results on Earth would be different than an upwardly accelerating rocket ship.

Your argument seems to hinge on your interpretation of the phrase "gravitational potential," which is irrelevant, since the effect would be the same.

You are still missing the point.  I'm not disputing that the NIST experiment is consistent with the equivalence principle.  I am saying it is inconsistent with UA.

According to relativity, clocks "run slower" when there is "more gravity" and "faster" when there is "less gravity".  That's what causes time dilation. If you age faster at the top of the steps than at the bottom, that means there is "less gravity" at the top of the steps. Something that UA says is not possible.

The fact that the same thing happens in an accelerating rocket ship is irrelevant.  It just means that an accelerating rocket ship mimics what happens on earth.  And the NIST experiment shows, that on earth, there is less gravity with higher elevation.

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Offline JSS

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Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2020, 04:23:25 PM »
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If the time dilation results are the same between floor and ceiling measurements in an upwardly accelerating rocket ship and floor and ceiling measurements in a room on Earth, then what is your point? The NIST doesn't say that it detected a difference that deviated from the Equivalence Principle which that says results on Earth would be different than an upwardly accelerating rocket ship.

Your argument seems to hinge on your interpretation of the phrase "gravitational potential," which is irrelevant, since the effect would be the same.

You are still missing the point.  I'm not disputing that the NIST experiment is consistent with the equivalence principle.  I am saying it is inconsistent with UA.

According to relativity, clocks "run slower" when there is "more gravity" and "faster" when there is "less gravity".  That's what causes time dilation. If you age faster at the top of the steps than at the bottom, that means there is "less gravity" at the top of the steps. Something that UA says is not possible.

The fact that the same thing happens in an accelerating rocket ship is irrelevant.  It just means that an accelerating rocket ship mimics what happens on earth.  And the NIST experiment shows, that on earth, there is less gravity with higher elevation.

There are two different measurements being discussed here and the Equivalence Principle only applies to one of them.  I think you are both talking about slightly different things.

Tom is correct that a clock on the ceiling of an accelerating rocket ship will have the same time dilation as if the rocket were sitting on the surface the Earth.

The equation for time dilation would use the units ('g' = 9.8m/s for standard Earth acceleration) and distance (lets say the ceiling height is, 'h' = 5 m). 

(Time elapsed at ceiling in seconds) = (Time elapsed at the floor) x (1+gh/c^2)

So one second at the floor will be 1.0000000000000005 seconds at the celling.  This is the same for being on a round Earth or being on a rocket (or Flat Earth under UA) at the same acceleration, you can't tell which you are in simply by measuring time dilation.  The same equation is used in both cases, giving identical results.

On the other hand, measuring the force of acceleration on the ceiling will be different in an accelerating rocket than sitting on the surface of the Earth.  You can tell the difference if you can measure with enough precision.

The formula for the rocket is... ('g' is the acceleration at the floor which would be 9.2m/s in our case and 'h' the height of the ceiling.)

(Force of gravity on the ceiling) = g - g^2 h/c^2

The formula for the force of gravity on Earth is... ('G' is the universal gravitational constant, 'M' is the mass of the Earth, 'h' is the distance from the center you are measuring at.)

G M/h^2

These two equations are clearly not the same, which is why with a sensitive enough gravimeter you can tell the difference between a rocket (or Flat Earth under UA) accelerating at 1G and being in the gravity well of a large round planet.  This is what fisherman seems to be talking about with differences in gravitational potential.

Acceleration and time dilation are somewhat but not completely related.  It took me a LOT of re-reading to remember (and relearn) all of this. 

Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2020, 04:40:58 PM »
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There are two different measurements being discussed here and the Equivalence Principle only applies to one of them.  I think you are both talking about slightly different things.

I agree.  Tom seems to be stuck on the equivalence principle aspect, which I completely agree that the NIST experiment is consistent with.  The same time dilation effect will happen in an accelerating rocket that will happen on earth. But that is irrelevant to the point I am making.

The reason time dilation happens in the first place, no matter where it happens, is because there are differences in how strong gravity is at different elevations.  Tom has consistently rejected the idea that there are differences in the strength of gravity at different locations on earth, but the experiment cited on the wiki shows there is.  It simple logic.

NIST experiment=time dilation on earth; time dilation on earth=varied strength of gravity on earth; NIST experiment=varied strength of gravity on earth.

Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2020, 06:33:32 PM »
@fisherman

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The reason time dilation happens in the first place

It is my contention that time dilation does not happen, under any circumstances.  The now of all observers is the same, and it matters not how fast you travel or other such things.  There is no time of any kind.  It is a non-real human concept.

Light, as a pressure wave, varies most with the media it is traveling through.  Fictional/conventional concepts like "time" are not involved.  The media is what is different.  Light, as a pressure wave, requires direct interaction with matter in order to be affected in any way. This is experimental fact with no refutation, to the chagrin of the silly relativists who are no less than an entire (fictional) revolution behind in terms of "current" theories in physics.

I am aware my views are unpopular. However, if it is not consistent with experiment - it's junk. There is no time that exists, and no "spacetime" that can in any way be demonstrated or verified experimentally.  The aether on the other hand...  The age of aether-mcarthyism must come to an end.

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Offline JSS

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Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2020, 07:03:33 PM »
@fisherman

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The reason time dilation happens in the first place

It is my contention that time dilation does not happen, under any circumstances.  The now of all observers is the same, and it matters not how fast you travel or other such things.  There is no time of any kind.  It is a non-real human concept.

Light, as a pressure wave, varies most with the media it is traveling through.  Fictional/conventional concepts like "time" are not involved.  The media is what is different.  Light, as a pressure wave, requires direct interaction with matter in order to be affected in any way. This is experimental fact with no refutation, to the chagrin of the silly relativists who are no less than an entire (fictional) revolution behind in terms of "current" theories in physics.

I am aware my views are unpopular. However, if it is not consistent with experiment - it's junk. There is no time that exists, and no "spacetime" that can in any way be demonstrated or verified experimentally.  The aether on the other hand...  The age of aether-mcarthyism must come to an end.

We have extremely precise clocks that can measure the time differences both from changes in altitude and speed.  Not just one clock or type, but many different kinds and they all agree with each other and give us numbers that match what the theory predicts.  This is strong evidence that time dilation does in fact exist.

Time may or may not exist from a philosophical standpoint, but it certainly exists from a scientific and evidential based one.

Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2020, 08:56:19 PM »
There are two different measurements being discussed here and the Equivalence Principle only applies to one of them.  I think you are both talking about slightly different things.

What Tom is really talking about in the wiki is the rocket accelerating in space experiment demonstrates time dilation due to velocity time dilation. What is measured in the NIST experiment is gravitational time dilation. Both are predicted by relativity theory and both have been experimentally verified. Unfortunately for the wiki, the rocket experiment involves an acceleration which uniformly affects the whole rocket, so the results by definition do not show equivalence with the NIST experiment because that would require a uniform gravitational field – and gravity on Earth has been experimentally shown to vary with height. Tidal forces must also be absent.

If he read a little farther in that book quoted in the wiki (The Five Ages of the Universe by Fred C. Adams, Greg Laughlin) he would find this described exactly on p122:–
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Einstein showed that the curvature of space caused by a concentration of mass produces a tidal force. Stellar black holes derive a great deal of their infamy from the extreme nature of the tidal forces near their event horizons. But what exactly is a tidal force? The answer is best given by way of an example. If you stand on Earth's surface, your head is slightly farther away from the centre of Earth than your feet. Because of this difference, your feet are being pulled away from your head. Fortunately, this effect is rather small. Because the curvature of space produced by Earth is extremely tiny, the tidal stretching force is about two million times smaller than the force of gravity itself, and we don't notice this extra force as we walk around on Earth's surface.

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Offline JSS

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Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2020, 09:19:15 PM »
There are two different measurements being discussed here and the Equivalence Principle only applies to one of them.  I think you are both talking about slightly different things.

What Tom is really talking about in the wiki is the rocket accelerating in space experiment demonstrates time dilation due to velocity time dilation. What is measured in the NIST experiment is gravitational time dilation. Both are predicted by relativity theory and both have been experimentally verified. Unfortunately for the wiki, the rocket experiment involves an acceleration which uniformly affects the whole rocket, so the results by definition do not show equivalence with the NIST experiment because that would require a uniform gravitational field – and gravity on Earth has been experimentally shown to vary with height. Tidal forces must also be absent.

If he read a little farther in that book quoted in the wiki (The Five Ages of the Universe by Fred C. Adams, Greg Laughlin) he would find this described exactly on p122:–
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Einstein showed that the curvature of space caused by a concentration of mass produces a tidal force. Stellar black holes derive a great deal of their infamy from the extreme nature of the tidal forces near their event horizons. But what exactly is a tidal force? The answer is best given by way of an example. If you stand on Earth's surface, your head is slightly farther away from the centre of Earth than your feet. Because of this difference, your feet are being pulled away from your head. Fortunately, this effect is rather small. Because the curvature of space produced by Earth is extremely tiny, the tidal stretching force is about two million times smaller than the force of gravity itself, and we don't notice this extra force as we walk around on Earth's surface.

Yes, that is exactly what I was talking about.   I quoted the formula for calculating those tidal forces below.  If you run this calculation twice, one with a radius of 6357000m and then again at 6357005m you will get a smaller value for the calculation for 5 meters above your head.

The formula for the force of gravity on Earth is... ('G' is the universal gravitational constant, 'M' is the mass of the Earth, 'h' is the distance from the center you are measuring at.)
G M/h^2

You will also get a smaller value if you calculate the g-force inside a rocket but that uses a different formula, thus giving you a way to determine if you are in a rocket or in a gravity well.

To sum up...

You can't tell if you are in a rocket or on a planet using time dilation as both clocks on the ceiling will run the same speed in either location.

You can tell by measuring gravity, the ceiling measurement will not be the same value inside the rocket as on a planet.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2020, 09:36:56 PM »
You can tell by measuring gravity, the ceiling measurement will not be the same value inside the rocket as on a planet.
You generously assume that you can create an experimental setup in which there are no external sources of gravitation. I look forward to you designing such a setup.
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Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2020, 11:07:45 PM »
Tanaka and Honda (2018). Vertical Gravimeter Array Observations and Their Performance in Groundwater‐Level Monitoring

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2017EA000311

I skimmed through the article above, it's a pretty interesting set up of relative gravimeters both above and below the ground.

A bit above my pay grade, I do more applied work typically, but it's a pretty good example of working to negative external and atmospheric effects. Obviously not perfect, but a good example nonetheless!
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Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2020, 05:19:46 PM »
@JSS

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We have extremely precise clocks that can measure the time differences both from changes in altitude and speed.

This is true.  However time isn't real, so you are only measuring with a slide ruler.  The speed at which thermodynamic (yes, including radiometric) processes occur vary with a variety of factors, but time never varies - ever.  The now is the same and simultaneous for all observers.  Look how many irreconcilable paradoxes I just solved!  Relativity is only for children.

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This is strong evidence that time dilation does in fact exist.

With the accompanying conditioning / religious dogma / bias - yes, it does appear that way! It is intended to.

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Time may or may not exist from a philosophical standpoint, but it certainly exists from a scientific and evidential based one.

It is quite the opposite. It only exists in philosophy. It is a human concept and has no physical reality whatsoever.

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Offline JSS

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Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2020, 05:30:32 PM »
@JSS

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We have extremely precise clocks that can measure the time differences both from changes in altitude and speed.

This is true.  However time isn't real, so you are only measuring with a slide ruler.  The speed at which thermodynamic (yes, including radiometric) processes occur vary with a variety of factors, but time never varies - ever.  The now is the same and simultaneous for all observers.  Look how many irreconcilable paradoxes I just solved!  Relativity is only for children.

What exactly have you solved?

Can you use this solution of yours to calculate the correct frequency adjustments for satellites in Relativistic orbits?

Some new method to data transmission or logic processing or math?

Can you break the speed of light limit? Travel back in 'time' since it doesn't exist?  How?

Science produces results, it gains us understanding of the world and universe around us. Your belief that time isn't real... what are the results of that?

This is why I say what you are talking about is just philosophy. It might be fun to talk about and debate, but it has no bearing on the physical world. It can't produce results, it can't do any work.  Relativity on the other hand, gives us many things, the ability of GPS to function and compensate for time dilation simply being one of them.

Re: UA and Gravitational Time Dilation
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2020, 01:54:52 AM »
@JSS

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What exactly have you solved?

All time and simultaneity paradoxes introduced, and worse - REVERED/HALLOWED - if you can fathom that level of stupidity, by relativists.

Time is not an independent variable, and it cannot be manipulated (for one reason) BECAUSE it is non real.  The now is the same for all observers.

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Can you use this solution of yours to calculate the correct frequency adjustments for satellites in Relativistic orbits?

If the equations work, why change them? Deluding yourself into thinking that because your equations work (in limited use cases, with error) that you understand the way reality works is a logical flaw all bayesians fall for.  Scientists who practice science (the scientific method) are not so easily deluded (though they do, regrettably, often still find a way...). Equation worship is a scourge.

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Some new method to data transmission or logic processing or math?

Nope! Much like relativity, i have nothing like that for you!

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Can you break the speed of light limit?

The limit is defined by the media of which the light wave is composed and travels through.  It is not a fundamental law, as much as a property.  If aether dragging (or manipulation) is possible (I think it is), then yes - much like in the relativistic framework you can have "faster than light" speed depending on frame of reference (galilean/newtonian).  If not, then no - BUT you get absolute motion and time as a trade off, which is totally worth it.

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Your belief that time isn't real... what are the results of that?

I try to avoid belief, especially in matters of knowledge/fact and most especially in science.  I'm just stating facts, matter of factly, as most all do!  If you have some evidence to refute these facts - lay 'em on me!

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This is why I say what you are talking about is just philosophy.

That's true!  Science is JUST philosophy (natural philosophy) but it has experiment to keep it "grounded"/connected to the manifest objective reality we all share.

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It can't produce results, it can't do any work

We were lied to / mistaught about philosophy (and all of science, a branch of philosophy).  It can (help us to) do great work!  But it must be demonstrated to be so!  I side with einstein on this point - a scientific theory must be judged by the biblical maxim, "from its fruits shall it be judged".  I am not saying that recognizing that time is a human fiction with no manifest reality will be particularly fruitful (initially, anyhow) - however it will cut down a large part of a rotten tree blocking out the sun and preventing new growth!  This is the same case with the true shape of the world.

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Relativity on the other hand, gives us many things, the ability of GPS to function and compensate for time dilation simply being one of them.

Relativity really didn't give us much of anything (but TOOK our time in a mathematical cul-de-sac instead of practicing physics), but that is a much longer discussion.  There are things that happen as a result of moving quickly, that affect the rate of certain thermodynamic/radiologic processes.  This was discovered through experiment and observation - relativity came afterwards.  This is mostly a case of correlation being mistaken for causation - EXACTLY the sort of delusion that the scientific method was designed/created to avoid! This is WHY relativity is based so heavily on unsound and irreconcilable paradox as well as complicated mathematics and "thought experiment". It is intended to dazzle and confuse - that is all it really ever "gave" us.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 01:57:52 AM by jack44556677 »