Sunsets in EA
« on: October 16, 2020, 01:40:39 AM »
So I understand the argument for EA influencing the apparent azimuth of the sun as it sets or rises, and how it accounts for an observer on the ground seeing the clouds illuminated from below.

But for a second observer, located above the clouds, how does EA account for what both of them see? Why doesnt the second observer, above cloud deck, see the sun anymore? Does the bending of light from EA apply to both observers simultaneously?

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Offline JSS

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Re: Sunsets in EA
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2020, 02:08:39 AM »
So I understand the argument for EA influencing the apparent azimuth of the sun as it sets or rises, and how it accounts for an observer on the ground seeing the clouds illuminated from below.

But for a second observer, located above the clouds, how does EA account for what both of them see? Why doesnt the second observer, above cloud deck, see the sun anymore? Does the bending of light from EA apply to both observers simultaneously?

The Wiki describes clouds being lit from underneath due to light curving back upwards.

The following image is from the Electromagnetic_Acceleration Wiki page.



I have additional questions and observations related to yours.

The above image could work for a single cloud, but how does it work for a larger amount of cloud cover?  I made a modification below to illustrate. I would think you also would still be able to see light hitting the tops of the clouds over in Brazil.  So at some point the clouds would transition from being lit at the top to being lit at the bottom?

I understand cloud cover isn't continuous over the entire surface, but just the next two clouds would block all the light from the first.


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunsets in EA
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2020, 02:20:33 AM »
Quote from: JSS
I have additional questions and observations related to yours.

The above image could work for a single cloud, but how does it work for a larger amount of cloud cover?  I made a modification below to illustrate. I would think you also would still be able to see light hitting the tops of the clouds over in Brazil.  So at some point the clouds would transition from being lit at the top to being lit at the bottom?

I understand cloud cover isn't continuous over the entire surface, but just the next two clouds would block all the light from the first.

Fallacy. If there were clouds thousands of miles long curving around the "globe" it would also block the Sun under the RE idea.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline stack

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Re: Sunsets in EA
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2020, 03:53:53 AM »
Quote from: JSS
I have additional questions and observations related to yours.

The above image could work for a single cloud, but how does it work for a larger amount of cloud cover?  I made a modification below to illustrate. I would think you also would still be able to see light hitting the tops of the clouds over in Brazil.  So at some point the clouds would transition from being lit at the top to being lit at the bottom?

I understand cloud cover isn't continuous over the entire surface, but just the next two clouds would block all the light from the first.

Fallacy. If there were clouds thousands of miles long curving around the "globe" it would also block the Sun under the RE idea.

How about a cloud right next to it? What's the calculation for how EA knows to curve up and reflect the underside of it too? Is it always like a Brazil to California distance thing?

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: Sunsets in EA
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2020, 05:42:31 AM »
If the light coming from the Sun curves up, then the phenomenon show the Sun lower than it really is.
In that case the light coming from horizon also shows horizon lower than it really is.
Which means the horizon is higher than the horizontal plane.
So many people directly measure so many things.
And they are getting more precise each day.

Re: Sunsets in EA
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2020, 10:50:14 AM »
If there were clouds thousands of miles long curving around the "globe" it would also block the Sun under the RE idea.

That does happen. Ever been to Europe in winter?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Sunsets in EA
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2020, 11:14:58 AM »
That does happen. Ever been to Europe in winter?
It does indeed happen. And because it does happen, we know that the clouds in this scenario would not be lit from below. That's why JSS's claim is bunk.
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Re: Sunsets in EA
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2020, 12:00:58 PM »
I guess I did a poor job outlining the question here, that's on me.

The thought was to accept EA as true and ask why those observations fit - why doesnt any light go straight to the hypothetical observer above the clouds (or in my image, the observer from the plane). I assume the answer relates to the spotlight nature of the sun in FE framework, as is illustrated in the diagrams provided above: all the light from the sun is emitted downwards, or at least in a relatively narrow cone.

Given that we all accept that the sun is round, based on the changing appearance of sun spots as they are observed passing across the sun, what is the phenomena that causes the light to only be emitted towards us, instead of radially, such that an observer located directly above someone observing sunset on earth would also only see the clouds lit from below.

Hopefully I've explained that a bit better, thanks to all who have offered clarification so far though.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Sunsets in EA
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2020, 12:30:46 PM »
why doesnt any light go straight to the hypothetical observer above the clouds (or in my image, the observer from the plane)
Evidently, it does - you wouldn't be able to see any of the sky if no light was reaching you.

I assume the answer relates to the spotlight nature of the sun in FE framework, as is illustrated in the diagrams provided above: all the light from the sun is emitted downwards, or at least in a relatively narrow cone.
No, this is a misunderstanding. The "spotlight nature" of the Sun is caused by EA. The illustration focuses on some light rays of particular interest (specifically, it was adapted from an illustration demonstrating different times of day on the Earth), but this does not mean other rays are absent. The reason most of them are irrelevant is that they'd simply curve away before reaching the observer.

In both models, the explanation for your photograph is identical: the apparent position of the Sun is above the Earth's surface, but below the clouds. Each scenario can be projected onto the other.

I think it would be helpful if you were to elaborate on this part of your question:

Does the bending of light from EA apply to both observers simultaneously?

What do you mean by properties of light "applying to both observers"? If we think of light as particles for a moment (and if we ignore any relativistic effects which will not be significant here), light either is present in a certain location or it isn't. As long as both observers have a sense of sight, there is nothing to "apply" or "not apply" to them.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 12:37:17 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Sunsets in EA
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2020, 01:28:25 PM »
Yep I will concede I've still not done a great job explaining my question, but I think your answer has taken care of my confusion... just to hopefully wrap this up:

As an analogy to explain the observed path of light rays in from the sun in EA, would it be best to think of them like magnetic field lines coming out of a dipole, like a bar magnet?

If that's reasonable (and I'm not trying to claim it is), what direction(s) is light being emitted from the opposite side of the sun above and away from earths surface? Predominantly upwards?
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Sunsets in EA
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2020, 02:02:21 PM »
As an analogy to explain the observed path of light rays in from the sun in EA, would it be best to think of them like magnetic field lines coming out of a dipole, like a bar magnet?
I don't want to speak with too much confidence (because someone will no doubt jump in with a "gotcha"), but I'm not immediately seeing an issue with thinking of it that way.

what direction(s) is light being emitted from the opposite side of the sun above and away from earths surface? Predominantly upwards?
If we imagine a point light source instead of a large object, then yes - there will be an angle at which all light will start curving up relatively soon, and will thus not be seen by many observers. By extension, this will be true of every point on the Sun's surface.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 02:04:05 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Sunsets in EA
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2020, 02:16:43 PM »
As an analogy to explain the observed path of light rays in from the sun in EA, would it be best to think of them like magnetic field lines coming out of a dipole, like a bar magnet?
I don't want to speak with too much confidence (because someone will no doubt jump in with a "gotcha"), but I'm not immediately seeing an issue with thinking of it that way.

what direction(s) is light being emitted from the opposite side of the sun above and away from earths surface? Predominantly upwards?
If we imagine a point light source instead of a large object, then yes - there will be an angle at which all light will start curving up relatively soon, and will thus not be seen by many observers. By extension, this will be true of every point on the Sun's surface.

Ok, thanks Pete. I'll leave it there - that tackles my confusion around that aspect of EA at least.
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