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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2020, 01:59:41 AM »
Ok, I can completely accept the potential motivation for faking space supremacy ( I firmly believe the evidence is overwhelming that they actually did what they say, but I definitely get the sentiment).

How are amateur HAM radio ops part of the space supremacy or NASA? I'm not trying to be a jerk here I'm just not understanding the connection at all

Long range communications techniques are valued information. The falsity could have nothing to do with faking space, only that is what one would expect to see at that time the claim was made. We are told that the military announced to the world exactly what frequencies it used, how it did it, and what it saw, for a military tactical advantage. It would be an absurdity that they would give to their enemies what is essentially a weapon. Claiming an that organization which prides itself on deception is providing truthful information would be a logical contradiction.

The "overwhelming evidence" for space comes from the government making those claims and citing their own confirmations of those claims, or otherwise providing others the software and tools necessary for verification
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2020, 02:03:02 AM »
Yeah, you've covered a lot of the readings for skepticism on the wiki so let's save that for another thread... but I'm interested in what tactical advantage is offered by knowing the precise distance to the moon.

I'm not an astronomy buff by any means, but I'm sure we had it nailed down pretty close to the actual distance  before HAM radio?
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Offline stack

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2020, 03:07:29 AM »
Yes, the internet has been around for decades. And HAM Earth-Moon-Earth transmissions are decades older than the internet. In fact, from an article published by The National Association of HAM Radio (ARRL):

"A team of folks at the Signal Corps Engineering Laboratories accomplished the first attempt at bouncing signals off the Moon on January 10, 1946 on a frequency of

You must be getting pretty desperate of you have to cite something that the military allegedly did during the cold war. I guess you really do have nothing.

I'm not sure how, but you seemed to miss everything after that sentence - You must be getting pretty desperate that you have to have to disregard 9/10's of a post - Here's what you seemed to have missed:

The first amateur work at receiving one’s own echoes was accomplished back in 1953 on 144 MHz by W4AO and W3GKP... It was not until after many years of work that the first 2304 MHz EME QSO took place between W4HHK and W3GKP on October 19, 1970.[/i]"
https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/0210028.pdf

Regarding W4HHK and W3GKP moon bounce transmission (and others), here is what their transmission looked like:



From the same article, here's what W5LUA had to say about his first attempt at an EME, "On a cold winter night in December, I was poised and ready to “bleep” at the Moon. My four 14 element Swan antennas, 500 W at the antenna and my 1.5 dB highly optimized homebrew LNA were ready. At the sight of the Moon coming across the horizon in Richardson, I sent out three dashes and upon returning to receive, I heard dah-dah-dah! I could not believe it. I did it again and again. Every time I heard my echoes. Boy, was I in heaven! "

And, btw, he was a solo operator. In other words, he transmitted and received his own signal. I don't know why you're hung up on this 'you need the internet' thing, because you don't. And this 'you can't do it alone' thing, because you can. And this 'kids can't do it' thing, because it's pretty straight forward with the right gear and license a kid could do it.

The first amateur HAM moon echo bounce looked like this:



Neat that amateur, non-military, non-NASA HAM Radio operators around the world have been doing moon bounce echos and transmissions since the 50's, wouldn't you say? The National Association for Amateur Radio even has annual contests to see how far and with what clarity they can bounce them.
http://www.arrl.org/eme-contest

Super cool that even amateur, non-military, non-NASA folks can do it, right?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2020, 07:32:09 AM »
My friend doesnt understand why that's a bad thing... or how that hurts that argument if HAMheads  have been doing that 'since the cold war'.

If we believe in the quote "All warfare is deception" from the Art of War, which military commanders and generals often tout, then should not believe in a word they say. It's also why we shouldn't have blind belief in NASA.
We don't have blind belief in NASA. The Australians were relaying Apollo signals for the Americans.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/jul/19/they-nailed-it-how-a-little-dish-in-australia-broadcast-the-moon-landing-to-the-world
Jodrell Bank in the UK were tracking the craft and a Russian unmanned one
https://www.jodrellbank.net/20-july-1969-lovell-telescope-tracked-eagle-lander-onto-surface-moon/
There is lots of 3rd party evidence, there's a whole Wiki page about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_evidence_for_Apollo_Moon_landings

And in terms of the moon bounce stuff being explained to you here...you're a zetetic, you're an empiricist. Do your own tests if you're that invested in finding out the truth.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2020, 09:23:43 AM »
No, I just see words of someone presenting themselves as an authority. You provide zero references or examples of amateurs doing this.

Like Rowbotham?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2020, 06:03:30 PM »
Yes, the internet has been around for decades. And HAM Earth-Moon-Earth transmissions are decades older than the internet. In fact, from an article published by The National Association of HAM Radio (ARRL):

"A team of folks at the Signal Corps Engineering Laboratories accomplished the first attempt at bouncing signals off the Moon on January 10, 1946 on a frequency of

You must be getting pretty desperate of you have to cite something that the military allegedly did during the cold war. I guess you really do have nothing.

I'm not sure how, but you seemed to miss everything after that sentence - You must be getting pretty desperate that you have to have to disregard 9/10's of a post - Here's what you seemed to have missed:

The first amateur work at receiving one’s own echoes was accomplished back in 1953 on 144 MHz by W4AO and W3GKP... It was not until after many years of work that the first 2304 MHz EME QSO took place between W4HHK and W3GKP on October 19, 1970.[/i]"
https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/0210028.pdf

You're wrong though. Even that reference references Sam Harris. From your source:

"The first amateur work at receiving one’s own echoes was accomplished back in 1953 on 144 MHz by W4AO and W3GKP. VHF pioneer Sam Harris, W1FZJ, was also very active in the late '50s. Having heard his echoes on both 50 and 144 MHz, Sam decided it was time to switch to 1296 MHz"

From A short history of geophysical radar at Arecibo Observatory

"The Higuillales location was that of an earlier 15-m parabolic dish built by – and at the then residence of – the famed ham radio operator Sam Harris (W1FZJ) and his wife Helen (W1HOY). Sam Harris was the head receiver engineer for AO. He pioneered early moon bounce communications at 432 MHz using this dish, as well as the main AO dish (DeMaw, 1965)."

AO = Arecibo Observatory

From To See the Unseen: A History of Planetary Radar Astronomy on Arecibo Observatory:

Quote
In 1961, when the first successful detections of Venus took place, virtually the sole funder of planetary radar astronomy in the United States was the military. The one exception was JPL's Goldstone facility, which NASA funded. Ten years later, the NSF took over the role of prime underwriter of the Arecibo Observatory from ARPA, and NASA agreed to support a major S-band upgrade of the facility‘s radar. As a result, NASA became the de facto patron of planetary radar astronomy at Arecibo, Goldstone, and Haystack. NASA supported planetary radar at those three centers through a variety of financial arrangements. Only at Arecibo, however, did NASA formally agree to support a planetary radar facility, as well as the research conducted with it. That agreement, moreover, was an obvious departure from its policy formulated in the wake of the Whitford Report.

NASA and the military (ARPA) has been funding this facility from the start.

NASA continues to provide funding: Arecibo Observatory Gets $19 Million NASA Grant

So this conclusion you made:

Quote
Super cool that even amateur, non-military, non-NASA folks can do it, right?

Is dead wrong. An engineer for a NASA-connected facility isn't an amateur, or unconnected to NASA.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 06:29:52 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline JSS

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2020, 06:04:00 PM »
Yes, the internet has been around for decades. And HAM Earth-Moon-Earth transmissions are decades older than the internet. In fact, from an article published by The National Association of HAM Radio (ARRL):

"A team of folks at the Signal Corps Engineering Laboratories accomplished the first attempt at bouncing signals off the Moon on January 10, 1946 on a frequency of

You must be getting pretty desperate of you have to cite something that the military allegedly did during the cold war. I guess you really do have nothing.

I'm not sure how, but you seemed to miss everything after that sentence - You must be getting pretty desperate that you have to have to disregard 9/10's of a post - Here's what you seemed to have missed:

The first amateur work at receiving one’s own echoes was accomplished back in 1953 on 144 MHz by W4AO and W3GKP... It was not until after many years of work that the first 2304 MHz EME QSO took place between W4HHK and W3GKP on October 19, 1970.[/i]"
https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/0210028.pdf

Super cool that even amateur, non-military, non-NASA folks can do it, right?

You're wrong though. Even that reference references Sam Harris. From your source:

"The first amateur work at receiving one’s own echoes was accomplished back in 1953 on 144 MHz by W4AO and W3GKP. VHF pioneer Sam Harris, W1FZJ, was also very active in the late '50s."

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c5f9/2309b0e5c0ebb434e3df89b6876292f62f74.pdf

"The Higuillales location was that of an earlier 15-m parabolic dish built by – and at the then residence of – the famed ham radio operator Sam Harris (W1FZJ) and his wife Helen (W1HOY). Sam Harris was the head receiver engineer for AO. He pioneered early moon bounce communications at 432 MHz using this dish, as well as the main AO dish (DeMaw, 1965)."

AO = Arecibo Observatory

To See the Unseen: A History of Planetary Radar Astronomy

Quote
In 1961, when the first successful detections of Venus took place, virtually the sole funder of planetary radar astronomy in the United States was the military. The one exception was JPL's Goldstone facility, which NASA funded. Ten years later, the NSF took over the role of prime underwriter of the Arecibo Observatory from ARPA, and NASA agreed to support a major S-band upgrade of the facility‘s radar. As a result, NASA became the de facto patron of planetary radar astronomy at Arecibo, Goldstone, and Haystack. NASA supported planetary radar at those three centers through a variety of financial arrangements. Only at Arecibo, however, did NASA formally agree to support a planetary radar facility, as well as the research conducted with it. That agreement, moreover, was an obvious departure from its policy formulated in the wake of the Whitford Report.

So NASA has been funding this facility from the start.

NASA continues to provide funding: Arecibo Observatory Gets $19 Million NASA Grant

Look at the dates you listed.

He performed his Moon bounce experiment as a amateur in 1953.

NASA was founded in 1958.

Th Arecibo Observatory started construction in 1960.

He did his experiments ten years before the Arecibo Observatory went into operation in 1963, and five years before NASA was even in existence.

So NASA could not have been funding him from the start, since he was doing it before NASA was even founded.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2020, 06:13:10 PM »
The NASA facilities existed. It just wasn't called NASA. The US allegedly put up a satellite before NASA was "founded". It was just a name change of existing organizations.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline JSS

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2020, 06:13:41 PM »
The NASA facilities existed. It just wasn't called NASA. You are aware that the US allegedly put up a satellite before NASA was "founded" right? It was just a name change of existing organizations.

Then you need to find documentation of whatever agency you think paid him to do his 1953 moon-bounce.

It wasn't NASA.  He didn't work for the Arecibo Observatory yet.

All indications I can find was that he was just what is claimed, an amateur HAM operator who bounced a signal off the Moon.

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Offline stack

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2020, 06:22:39 PM »
Yes, the internet has been around for decades. And HAM Earth-Moon-Earth transmissions are decades older than the internet. In fact, from an article published by The National Association of HAM Radio (ARRL):

"A team of folks at the Signal Corps Engineering Laboratories accomplished the first attempt at bouncing signals off the Moon on January 10, 1946 on a frequency of

You must be getting pretty desperate of you have to cite something that the military allegedly did during the cold war. I guess you really do have nothing.

I'm not sure how, but you seemed to miss everything after that sentence - You must be getting pretty desperate that you have to have to disregard 9/10's of a post - Here's what you seemed to have missed:

The first amateur work at receiving one’s own echoes was accomplished back in 1953 on 144 MHz by W4AO and W3GKP... It was not until after many years of work that the first 2304 MHz EME QSO took place between W4HHK and W3GKP on October 19, 1970.[/i]"
https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/0210028.pdf

You're wrong though. Even that reference references Sam Harris. From your source:

"The first amateur work at receiving one’s own echoes was accomplished back in 1953 on 144 MHz by W4AO and W3GKP. VHF pioneer Sam Harris, W1FZJ, was also very active in the late '50s."

So what if it references Sam Harris. The quote about the amateurs has nothing to do with Sam Harris. It's right there in the quote, "The first amateur work at receiving one’s own echoes was accomplished back in 1953 on 144 MHz by W4AO and W3GKP." See that, by W4AO and W3GKP? Sam Harris, W1FZJ, was doing his own thing and had nothing to do with the amateurs, W4AO and W3GKP. Why are you bringing this Sam Harris guy up?

So this conclusion you made:

Quote
Super cool that even amateur, non-military, non-NASA folks can do it, right?

Is dead wrong. An engineer for a NASA-connected facility isn't an amateur, or unconnected to NASA.

Actually, your conclusion is just weird and irrelevant. You bring up this Sam Harris guy who was doing his own thing and had nothing to do with the amateurs mentioned. Then go on about Harris' affiliation with space agencies, or whatever.

Focus on the amateurs referenced - What about their echo testing do you object to?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2020, 07:14:34 PM »
So what if it references Sam Harris. The quote about the amateurs has nothing to do with Sam Harris. It's right there in the quote, "The first amateur work at receiving one’s own echoes was accomplished back in 1953 on 144 MHz by W4AO and W3GKP." See that, by W4AO and W3GKP? Sam Harris, W1FZJ, was doing his own thing and had nothing to do with the amateurs, W4AO and W3GKP. Why are you bringing this Sam Harris guy up?

So this conclusion you made:

Quote
Super cool that even amateur, non-military, non-NASA folks can do it, right?

Is dead wrong. An engineer for a NASA-connected facility isn't an amateur, or unconnected to NASA.

Actually, your conclusion is just weird and irrelevant. You bring up this Sam Harris guy who was doing his own thing and had nothing to do with the amateurs mentioned. Then go on about Harris' affiliation with space agencies, or whatever.

Focus on the amateurs referenced - What about their echo testing do you object to?

W4AO and W3GKP were part of Project Moonbeam

From http://www.ok2kkw.com/eme1960/eme1960eng.htm



Project Moonbeam had a "staff", from that same page:

    "Meanwhile, the staff of Moonbeam had been augmented by the addition of Ted Tuckerman, W3LZD, of Dunmore, Penna., who erected a 30-wavelength rhombic array in time for tests in late January."

Who was paying this "staff" to work on Project Moonbeam?

From Project Vanguard: The NASA History -



So it was the military sponsoring this project and paying that staff, to support their satellite/orbiter project and tell the world that amateurs tracked satellites, as related in a book titled Project Vanguard: The NASA History. Totally independent. Yeah right.

Once again we see that you are mistaken for taking these sources at face value.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 04:37:01 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline JSS

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2020, 07:21:35 PM »
Who was paying this "staff" to work on Project Moonbeam?

From Project Vanguard: The NASA History -



So it was the military sponsoring this project and paying that staff, to support their Army-Orbiter project and tell the world that amateurs tracked satellites, as related in a book titled Project Vanguard: The NASA History. Totally independent. Yeah right.

Once again we see that you are mistaken for taking these sources at face value.

You are getting two projects called "Moonbeam" mixed up.  Again, these two amateurs  did their work before the project you mentioned existed.

The amateur "Project Moonbeam" done by W4AO and W3GKP in 1953. This bounced radio off the Moon.

And the Project Vanguard "Moonbeam" which wasn't started until 1956 to fund amateur HAM operator projects.  You even quoted that Project Vanguard started in 1955.

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4202.pdf

The enthusiasm of amateur star-gazers over the opportunity to have a part in an important scientific venture early impressed the USNC's Executive Committee. Here evidently was a simple way of widening public interest in the IGY both at home and abroad. In response to the committee's suggestions that the men in charge of other phases of the IGY open the doors to amateur participation, in early 1956 the technical panel authorized "Moonbeam" for ham radio operators

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Offline stack

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2020, 07:29:18 PM »
Once again we see that you are mistaken for taking these sources at face value.

Actually, it is you who are once again mistaken by failing to line up the historical record in the right order. As JSS just pointed out, you have the wrong dates. The amateur moonbounce was in 53', pre-dating any NRL affiliation by 2-3 years. So again, what about their amateur moonbounce echo test do you disagree with and why? And please pay special attention to facts.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2020, 07:31:16 PM »
You are getting two projects called "Moonbeam" mixed up.  Again, these two amateurs  did their work before the project you mentioned existed.

The amateur "Project Moonbeam" done by W4AO and W3GKP in 1953. This bounced radio off the Moon.

And the Project Vanguard "Moonbeam" which wasn't started until 1956 to fund amateur HAM operator projects.  You even quoted that Project Vanguard started in 1955.

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4202.pdf

The enthusiasm of amateur star-gazers over the opportunity to have a part in an important scientific venture early impressed the USNC's Executive Committee. Here evidently was a simple way of widening public interest in the IGY both at home and abroad. In response to the committee's suggestions that the men in charge of other phases of the IGY open the doors to amateur participation, in early 1956 the technical panel authorized "Moonbeam" for ham radio operators

Oh, so now you have two different Project Moonbeams for radio hams, one which is funded by the military and one which you think is independent, and which both take place within the few years of each other. How absurd. It says in the caption of the first image I provided "after three years of trying". These projects take years.

You quote doesn't even say that it was started in 1956. It says "in early 1956 the technical panel authorized 'Moonbeam' for ham radio operators;". That doesn't say that it was started in 1956. It says that they authorized it for something.

Names like Project Moonbeam and Project Vanguard are clearly military-style project names.

Quote
Actually, it is you who are once again mistaken by failing to line up the historical record in the right order. As JSS just pointed out, you have the wrong dates. The amateur moonbounce was in 53', pre-dating any NRL affiliation by 2-3 years. So again, what about their amateur moonbounce echo test do you disagree with and why? And please pay special attention to facts.

I do pay attention to the facts. You don't. If you had gone to the link JSS provided you would see what it was authorized for. The quote continues with a semicolon. Here is the whole thing.

"The enthusiasm of amateur star-gazers over the opportunity to have a
part in an important scientific venture early impressed the USN C’s Execu-
tive Committee. Here evidently was a simple way of widening public inter-
est in the IGY both at home and abroad. In response to the committee’s
suggestions that the men in charge of other phases of the IGY open the
doors to amateur participation, in early 1956 the technical panel authorized
“Moonbeam” for ham radio operators; the Naval Research Laboratory
accepted responsibility for indoctrinating licensed applicants in the essen-
tial do’s and don’t’s, chiefly by means of a descriptive and technical manual
to be prepared by John Hagen. At the same time Whipple agreed to draft
instructions for Moonwatch teams.
"

So no. It, doesn't say it was started in 1956. You aren't paying attention. Do learn what a semicolon is, and do read the sources that you are trying to champion. You are continuously wrong, and should do something to change that.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 07:43:15 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline stack

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2020, 07:41:41 PM »
You are getting two projects called "Moonbeam" mixed up.  Again, these two amateurs  did their work before the project you mentioned existed.

The amateur "Project Moonbeam" done by W4AO and W3GKP in 1953. This bounced radio off the Moon.

And the Project Vanguard "Moonbeam" which wasn't started until 1956 to fund amateur HAM operator projects.  You even quoted that Project Vanguard started in 1955.

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4202.pdf

The enthusiasm of amateur star-gazers over the opportunity to have a part in an important scientific venture early impressed the USNC's Executive Committee. Here evidently was a simple way of widening public interest in the IGY both at home and abroad. In response to the committee's suggestions that the men in charge of other phases of the IGY open the doors to amateur participation, in early 1956 the technical panel authorized "Moonbeam" for ham radio operators

Oh, so now you have two different Project Moonbeams for radio hams, one which is funded by the military and one which you think is independent, and which both take place within the few years of each other. How absurd. It says in the caption of the first image I provided "after three years of trying". These projects take years.

You quote doesn't even say that it was started in 1956. It says "in early 1956 the technical panel authorized 'Moonbeam' for ham radio operators;". That doesn't say that it was started in 1956. It says that they authorized it for something.

Names like Project Moonbeam and Project Vanguard are clearly military-style project names.

Quote
Actually, it is you who are once again mistaken by failing to line up the historical record in the right order. As JSS just pointed out, you have the wrong dates. The amateur moonbounce was in 53', pre-dating any NRL affiliation by 2-3 years. So again, what about their amateur moonbounce echo test do you disagree with and why? And please pay special attention to facts.

I do pay attention to the facts. You don't. If you had gone to the link JSS provided you would see what it was authorized for. The quote continues with a semicolon. Here is the whole thing.

"The enthusiasm of amateur star-gazers over the opportunity to have a
part in an important scientific venture early impressed the USN C’s Execu-
tive Committee. Here evidently was a simple way of widening public inter-
est in the IGY both at home and abroad. In response to the committee’s
suggestions that the men in charge of other phases of the IGY open the
doors to amateur participation, in early 1956 the technical panel authorized
“Moonbeam” for ham radio operators; the Naval Research Laboratory
accepted responsibility for indoctrinating licensed applicants in the essen-
tial do’s and don’t’s, chiefly by means of a descriptive and technical manual
to be prepared by John Hagen. At the same time Whipple agreed to draft
instructions for Moonwatch teams.
"

So no. It, doesn't say it was started in 1956. You aren't paying attention. Do learn what a semicolon is, and do read your sources that you are trying to champion thoroughly. You are continuously wrong.

Again, you're missing the facts in the historical record. Project Vanguard didn't exist until 1955. The amateur HAMs did their landmark moonbounce echo in 53'. From the Naval Research Lab history:

"Vanguard Project
Between 1955 and 1959, NRL conducted the first American satellite program called Vanguard. The program was initiated to represent the United States in the International Geophysical Year (IGY). IGY was a cooperative international scientific effort to study the physical properties of Earth. "
https://www.nrl.navy.mil/accomplishments/rockets/vanguard-project
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline JSS

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2020, 07:48:34 PM »
You are getting two projects called "Moonbeam" mixed up.  Again, these two amateurs  did their work before the project you mentioned existed.

The amateur "Project Moonbeam" done by W4AO and W3GKP in 1953. This bounced radio off the Moon.

And the Project Vanguard "Moonbeam" which wasn't started until 1956 to fund amateur HAM operator projects.  You even quoted that Project Vanguard started in 1955.

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4202.pdf

The enthusiasm of amateur star-gazers over the opportunity to have a part in an important scientific venture early impressed the USNC's Executive Committee. Here evidently was a simple way of widening public interest in the IGY both at home and abroad. In response to the committee's suggestions that the men in charge of other phases of the IGY open the doors to amateur participation, in early 1956 the technical panel authorized "Moonbeam" for ham radio operators

Oh, so now you have two different Project Moonbeams for radio hams, one which is funded by the military and one which you think is independent, and which both take place within the few years of each other. How absurd. It says in the caption of the first image I provided "after three years of trying". These projects take years.

You quote doesn't even say that it was started in 1956. It says "in early 1956 the technical panel authorized 'Moonbeam' for ham radio operators;". That doesn't say that it was started in 1956. It says that they authorized it for something.

Names like Project Moonbeam and Project Vanguard are clearly military-style project names.

Did you consider that the Project Vanguard Moonbeam may have been named in honor of the HAM operators project? I agree it's an unlikely coincidence, but they are clearly different projects as the dates prove.

Your own quote shows that Project Vanguard didn't start until 1955.  My quote is talking about Project Vanguard authorizing Moonbeam to start in 1956. How would Project Vanguard have been paying the two amateurs in 1953 if they didn't exist until 1955?

I still suggest you contact your local HAM group and ask if anyone can demo the technique. Seeing it performed by an amateur by your own eyes would be the best proof, wouldn't it?

Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2020, 09:31:19 AM »
a
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 09:36:27 AM by person1234 »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2020, 04:33:38 PM »
You are getting two projects called "Moonbeam" mixed up.  Again, these two amateurs  did their work before the project you mentioned existed.

The amateur "Project Moonbeam" done by W4AO and W3GKP in 1953. This bounced radio off the Moon.

And the Project Vanguard "Moonbeam" which wasn't started until 1956 to fund amateur HAM operator projects.  You even quoted that Project Vanguard started in 1955.

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4202.pdf

The enthusiasm of amateur star-gazers over the opportunity to have a part in an important scientific venture early impressed the USNC's Executive Committee. Here evidently was a simple way of widening public interest in the IGY both at home and abroad. In response to the committee's suggestions that the men in charge of other phases of the IGY open the doors to amateur participation, in early 1956 the technical panel authorized "Moonbeam" for ham radio operators

Oh, so now you have two different Project Moonbeams for radio hams, one which is funded by the military and one which you think is independent, and which both take place within the few years of each other. How absurd. It says in the caption of the first image I provided "after three years of trying". These projects take years.

You quote doesn't even say that it was started in 1956. It says "in early 1956 the technical panel authorized 'Moonbeam' for ham radio operators;". That doesn't say that it was started in 1956. It says that they authorized it for something.

Names like Project Moonbeam and Project Vanguard are clearly military-style project names.

Quote
Actually, it is you who are once again mistaken by failing to line up the historical record in the right order. As JSS just pointed out, you have the wrong dates. The amateur moonbounce was in 53', pre-dating any NRL affiliation by 2-3 years. So again, what about their amateur moonbounce echo test do you disagree with and why? And please pay special attention to facts.

I do pay attention to the facts. You don't. If you had gone to the link JSS provided you would see what it was authorized for. The quote continues with a semicolon. Here is the whole thing.

"The enthusiasm of amateur star-gazers over the opportunity to have a
part in an important scientific venture early impressed the USN C’s Execu-
tive Committee. Here evidently was a simple way of widening public inter-
est in the IGY both at home and abroad. In response to the committee’s
suggestions that the men in charge of other phases of the IGY open the
doors to amateur participation, in early 1956 the technical panel authorized
“Moonbeam” for ham radio operators; the Naval Research Laboratory
accepted responsibility for indoctrinating licensed applicants in the essen-
tial do’s and don’t’s, chiefly by means of a descriptive and technical manual
to be prepared by John Hagen. At the same time Whipple agreed to draft
instructions for Moonwatch teams.
"

So no. It, doesn't say it was started in 1956. You aren't paying attention. Do learn what a semicolon is, and do read your sources that you are trying to champion thoroughly. You are continuously wrong.

Again, you're missing the facts in the historical record. Project Vanguard didn't exist until 1955. The amateur HAMs did their landmark moonbounce echo in 53'. From the Naval Research Lab history:

"Vanguard Project
Between 1955 and 1959, NRL conducted the first American satellite program called Vanguard. The program was initiated to represent the United States in the International Geophysical Year (IGY). IGY was a cooperative international scientific effort to study the physical properties of Earth. "
https://www.nrl.navy.mil/accomplishments/rockets/vanguard-project

The Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) started both Vanguard and Project Moonbeam. The NRL predates all of those projects.

https://archive.org/stream/NASA_NTRS_Archive_19670008308/NASA_NTRS_Archive_19670008308_djvu.txt

    "In cooperation with the American Radio Relay League, NRL started Project Moonbeam, the electronic cousin to the SAO amateur optical tracking  activity, Project Moonwatch."

We see that the NRL is working with amateur organizations like the American Radio Relay League on projects, to be able to tell the world that their work is verified by amateurs.

From the ARRL website:

http://www.arrl.org/about-arrl

    "ARRL is the national association for Amateur Radio in the US. Founded in 1914 by Hiram Percy Maxim as The American Radio Relay League, ARRL is a noncommercial organization of radio amateurs."
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2020, 04:36:26 PM »
We see that the NRL is working with amateur organizations like the American Radio Relay League to get projects done, to be able to tell the world that their work is verified by amateurs.

You’re an amateur, can’t you do some tests yourself? You seem to spend a lot of time trying to discredit evidence from others and very little time actually doing any tests yourself. This sounds like a worthy candidate for FE research, no?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline stack

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Re: Moon landing Technology-Adam ruins everything
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2020, 06:53:47 PM »
You are getting two projects called "Moonbeam" mixed up.  Again, these two amateurs  did their work before the project you mentioned existed.

The amateur "Project Moonbeam" done by W4AO and W3GKP in 1953. This bounced radio off the Moon.

And the Project Vanguard "Moonbeam" which wasn't started until 1956 to fund amateur HAM operator projects.  You even quoted that Project Vanguard started in 1955.

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4202.pdf

The enthusiasm of amateur star-gazers over the opportunity to have a part in an important scientific venture early impressed the USNC's Executive Committee. Here evidently was a simple way of widening public interest in the IGY both at home and abroad. In response to the committee's suggestions that the men in charge of other phases of the IGY open the doors to amateur participation, in early 1956 the technical panel authorized "Moonbeam" for ham radio operators

Oh, so now you have two different Project Moonbeams for radio hams, one which is funded by the military and one which you think is independent, and which both take place within the few years of each other. How absurd. It says in the caption of the first image I provided "after three years of trying". These projects take years.

You quote doesn't even say that it was started in 1956. It says "in early 1956 the technical panel authorized 'Moonbeam' for ham radio operators;". That doesn't say that it was started in 1956. It says that they authorized it for something.

Names like Project Moonbeam and Project Vanguard are clearly military-style project names.

Quote
Actually, it is you who are once again mistaken by failing to line up the historical record in the right order. As JSS just pointed out, you have the wrong dates. The amateur moonbounce was in 53', pre-dating any NRL affiliation by 2-3 years. So again, what about their amateur moonbounce echo test do you disagree with and why? And please pay special attention to facts.

I do pay attention to the facts. You don't. If you had gone to the link JSS provided you would see what it was authorized for. The quote continues with a semicolon. Here is the whole thing.

"The enthusiasm of amateur star-gazers over the opportunity to have a
part in an important scientific venture early impressed the USN C’s Execu-
tive Committee. Here evidently was a simple way of widening public inter-
est in the IGY both at home and abroad. In response to the committee’s
suggestions that the men in charge of other phases of the IGY open the
doors to amateur participation, in early 1956 the technical panel authorized
“Moonbeam” for ham radio operators; the Naval Research Laboratory
accepted responsibility for indoctrinating licensed applicants in the essen-
tial do’s and don’t’s, chiefly by means of a descriptive and technical manual
to be prepared by John Hagen. At the same time Whipple agreed to draft
instructions for Moonwatch teams.
"

So no. It, doesn't say it was started in 1956. You aren't paying attention. Do learn what a semicolon is, and do read your sources that you are trying to champion thoroughly. You are continuously wrong.

Again, you're missing the facts in the historical record. Project Vanguard didn't exist until 1955. The amateur HAMs did their landmark moonbounce echo in 53'. From the Naval Research Lab history:

"Vanguard Project
Between 1955 and 1959, NRL conducted the first American satellite program called Vanguard. The program was initiated to represent the United States in the International Geophysical Year (IGY). IGY was a cooperative international scientific effort to study the physical properties of Earth. "
https://www.nrl.navy.mil/accomplishments/rockets/vanguard-project

The Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) started both Vanguard and Project Moonbeam. The NRL predates all of those projects.

https://archive.org/stream/NASA_NTRS_Archive_19670008308/NASA_NTRS_Archive_19670008308_djvu.txt

    "In cooperation with the American Radio Relay League, NRL started Project Moonbeam, the electronic cousin to the SAO amateur optical tracking  activity, Project Moonwatch."

We see that the NRL is working with amateur organizations like the American Radio Relay League on projects, to be able to tell the world that their work is verified by amateurs.

From the ARRL website:

http://www.arrl.org/about-arrl

    "ARRL is the national association for Amateur Radio in the US. Founded in 1914 by Hiram Percy Maxim as The American Radio Relay League, ARRL is a noncommercial organization of radio amateurs."

What's your point exactly? The NRL's Project Vanguard started their Project Moonbeam in 1956, a year after Project Vanguard was started in 1955. Our two amateur HAMs successfully executed their EME moon bounces in 1953. Looks like there was even another project 'Moonbeam', called the "Sohio Project Moonbeam", in 1958. Seems like 'Moonbeam ' was a popular name for amateur and military efforts alike to beam radio signals off the Moon. Go figure.

Bottomline, you are wrong, the first successful efforts to echo a radio signal off the moon were performed by non-military, non-military sponsored HAM amateurs.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.