Creation
« on: October 05, 2020, 10:10:59 AM »
Hello,

Please forgive the noob questions but I couldn't find this subject being covered in any depth on the site. (Please point me to it if I missed it).

What is the accepted creation theory for a flat Earth? How did it come into being and how was the solar system ordered so precisely to be beneficial to the flat Earth?

Does the flat Earth theory insist upon a conscious creator, a god or gods or is there a more secular, scientific explanation that describes the creation of the flat Earth system?

Thank you.

AR

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Creation
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2020, 07:15:06 PM »
Hello,

Please forgive the noob questions but I couldn't find this subject being covered in any depth on the site. (Please point me to it if I missed it).

What is the accepted creation theory for a flat Earth? How did it come into being and how was the solar system ordered so precisely to be beneficial to the flat Earth?

Does the flat Earth theory insist upon a conscious creator, a god or gods or is there a more secular, scientific explanation that describes the creation of the flat Earth system?

Thank you.

AR

You will do a lot better if you ask these types of specific questions to specific people.  There is no FE accepted theory, yet lots of differing individual ideas.  Some are wild  and some are pretty well thought out, some are biblical based, some are just trolls.   It's what makes it fun to discuss.   Come here as a thought execrise and you can enjoy it, come here to "prove the dumb asses wrong" and you will tire of it and leave in a day or two.

Even the WIKI, that you should read BTW, is full of contradictory ideas and ideas not accepted by the masses.    There is no one FE theory.



Nothing Guest has ever said should be taken as representative of anything other than Guest's own delusions opinions.

Re: Creation
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2020, 08:04:44 AM »
Thanks Tom. I'm not here to poke sticks at anyone's beliefs, there's enough of that sort of nonsense on 'social' media.

To state my position, I am a non religious traditional globular earth believer. I say believer because I can't personally prove one way or the other, I'm not a scientist or mathematician. And, as I said, I'm not here to do down anyone else's beliefs.

I accept that for religious types a creator can create creation in any way he or she sees fit and that the majority of creation stories don't specify the shape of the world being created, so a flat Earth is entirely possible if you believe in intelligent design.

Secular science seems to have robust and plausible explanations for the shape, size and make up of the 'traditional' solar system as well as the wider universe (subsequent to the Big Bang at any rate), and I am interested to know how the complex flat Earth system can be explained through natural processes and without intelligent design.

There is a great deal of detail given on this site, and elsewhere, to the natural processes governing the flat Earth system as it exists now, however not having a solid explanation for how such a conveniently laid out system could come into existence under natural processes, seems to leave a rather large and significant gap in the understanding. Without this, I find it very difficult to understand how it's possible to separate flat Earth theory from intelligent design.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 02:46:23 PM by AmoebaReeba »

Re: Creation
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2020, 12:39:51 PM »
Based on the deathly silence this subject is eliciting, I am drawn to conclude several possibilities:

1. Everyone is willing to accept that a god designed the whole system. In which case all the other scientific discussions on these boards are meaningless because, well, god does it, QED. Might as well go home now chaps we've sorted it.

2. There are no theories at all that endeavour to explain the creation of the FE system using only natural processes. In which case there is a mahoosive elephant in the room, guys, the sphericals have science answers, you don't. I can't believe this is the case. Too may bright brains here for that.

3. Everyone is scratching their boll heads right now trying to come up with an answer, because well, we never thought to consider it before. I don't buy this either.

5. Noob member isn't worthy of an answer. Possible, having experienced many a cliquey chat forum in the past. I hope this isn't it.

4. Late as always.

There are lots of science based discussions on these boards about the fine detail of all sorts of minutiae to do with everything from weather patterns to whether water spins in different directions in different parts of the world, but nada on the most fundamental question of all...how did it all begin?

That's a bit disappointing really.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 01:56:35 PM by AmoebaReeba »

Re: Creation
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2020, 02:28:50 PM »
Not really surprising, the top-level forums here discuss how things are, not how they became so. People argue enough about RE vs FE as viable explanations, we don’t have opportunity to debate how the world happened.

You may have more luck elsewhere, though I’m sorry I haven’t any pointers or links for you.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Creation
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2020, 11:24:03 AM »
5. Noob member isn't worthy of an answer. Possible, having experienced many a cliquey chat forum in the past. I hope this isn't it.
You're not far off. We tend to be a bit impatient with people who ask questions without reading the FAQ.

Is the Flat Earth Theory connected to a religion?

The Flat Earth Theory is neither officially nor unofficially associated with any religion. Throughout the ages various religious institutions have championed a Flat Earth model for the world. Unfortunately this leaves us with the vestigial thought that Flat Earth theory and religions are symbiotic. They are not, even though many religions today, both mainstream and otherwise, still teach its followers that the world is flat. While they are not incorrect, believing in a Flat Earth isn't contingent upon believing in a deity or being a part of any religion.

In short: we don't often discuss religion, because we don't consider it relevant to the topic at hand. As for the Earth's or universe's origins, this runs a bit contrary to our philosophy. Flat Earthers concern themselves with what can be observed, not speculation about that which cannot. Glorified educated guesses like the Big Bang just aren't the area of interest for this group.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Re: Creation
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2020, 12:57:41 PM »
Thanks Pete. That's a very interesting answer. If I may just risk inflaming your impatience a little further.

Firstly, I can clarify that I did read the FAQs, none of which dealt with creation so I thought 'I know, I'll post a question in Flat Earth Theory, that'll be a good place to ask about a theory relating to flat Earth'.

As to religion, I read that bit you quoted. Religion answers all questions without the need for any debate which is a tad boring, and that's why my question was more focused towards any flat Earth theories dealing with creation caused by natural processes.

To suggest it's not in the interest of this group to discuss creation seems a bit counter-intuitive for a bunch of people trying to understand the fundamental workings of a flat Earth system.

I appreciate that you don't need to know how a car was made to be able to noodle around in the engine compartment and figure out what things do, but I'm sure those who understand the design and build processes have a much easier time understanding the physics of it all than some bloke with just the one O level in woodwork.

In other words, figuring out the creation process (using real measurements and science and stuff rather than relying on the speculation you speak of) would probably go a long way towards proving, or otherwise, some of the other theories floating about. Could save you all a good deal of time and typing.

Still, it's your playground I guess and you can choose the rules of the game. Avoiding difficult questions though does seem a teensy bit defeatist.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Creation
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2020, 02:04:19 PM »
I appreciate that you don't need to know how a car was made to be able to noodle around in the engine compartment and figure out what things do, but I'm sure those who understand the design and build processes have a much easier time understanding the physics of it all than some bloke with just the one O level in woodwork.
I reject this analogy. It presumes that the Earth, much like a car, was purpose-made and designed by an intelligent being. This presumption is unfounded, and unverifiable.

In other words, figuring out the creation process (using real measurements and science and stuff rather than relying on the speculation you speak of) would probably go a long way towards proving, or otherwise, some of the other theories floating about. Could save you all a good deal of time and typing.
Potentially. Nonetheless, given that the origin of the Universe is currently unknown to anyone, it makes for a pretty tough task. It's unlikely to save us time, because it's an effort we'd likely never succeed at.

Still, it's your playground I guess and you can choose the rules of the game. Avoiding difficult questions though does seem a teensy bit defeatist.
And asking us to answer the unanswerable seems like you're trying to spin a narrartive. "Oh, wow, look at those guys, they haven't even figured out one of the greatest mysteries of the world that surrounds us! Pshaw!"

There are plenty of difficult questions out there, and only so few of us. Your expectation that we'll prioritise your difficult question suggests that you either view the question as special, or you view yourself as special. Personally, I'm not convinced by either.

You're welcome to refer to it as defeatist, but I choose to call it triage. Finding the sweet spot between impact and attainability beats dwelling on something we'll likely never know.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 02:07:44 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Re: Creation
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2020, 02:58:45 PM »
I reject this analogy. It presumes that the Earth, much like a car, was purpose-made and designed by an intelligent being. This presumption is unfounded, and unverifiable.
But FE does mean the earth is "special". Which is what we believed for most of our history. We were the centre of everything. Which from most observations is what it does kind of look like.
The idea that actually we're just another planet going round the sun is relatively new - in the context of human history.
And the idea that there's nothing special about the sun either - the other stars are just other suns many of which have their own planets - is a very recent revelation.
The only think which makes us special is life. And it's far from certain whether we are the only place where that exists.
The first exoplanet wasn't discovered till 1995 so we are still very much in our infancy when it comes to comes to exploring that.
The distances are such that we can't really easily communicate even if there is anyone to communicate with.

I understand why FE appeals to people of a religious persuasion who still wants to think we hold a special place in the universe.
I happen to think we do hold a special place in the universe, I just don't think it's a special physical place.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Creation
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2020, 03:00:30 PM »
But FE does mean the earth is "special".
We don't know that. Much like with hypothetical extraterrestrial intelligence, there may well be other Earths out there. Or there might not be. Again, I'd classify that as "currently unknowable".

I understand why FE appeals to people of a religious persuasion who still wants to think we hold a special place in the universe.
Agreed. They just happen to avoid us as a group, so you're unlikely to hear their perspective here. Of course, that's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 03:06:59 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
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Re: Creation
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2020, 03:04:32 PM »
Hello again Pete. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Can I just pick you up on a couple of things from your last reply.

Quote
I reject this analogy. It presumes that the Earth, much like a car, was purpose-made and designed by an intelligent being. This presumption is unfounded, and unverifiable.

I agree with your sentiment here, but not your reasoning. The analogy doesn't care whether the Earth was created by design (which I don't believe) or by natural processes. It was however created by something. You have to admit that. Understanding that process will undoubtedly give you more information on which to strengthen your understanding of your other theories.

Quote
And asking us to answer the unanswerable seems like you're trying to spin a narrartive

Pshaw! When I asked the question, I had no idea it was unanswerable. As I said at the beginning I have no agenda other than to understand the thinking behind any theories that describe the creation of the flat Earth system by natural processes. If you're telling me there aren't any, then that's my answer.

Quote
Your expectation that we'll prioritise your difficult question

It's not my difficult question, it's a/the most important* difficult question. (* delete as applicable)

Quote
suggests that you either view the question as special, or you view yourself as special.

I am special. My parents even sent me to a special school  :P

Seriously, I do appreciate your engagement in this thread, but I don't want to risk the ire of the group by pushing it any further. I think I understand now where at least some of this group is on the subject and I shall leave slightly disappointed, but also slightly better informed.

Thanks.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Creation
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2020, 03:10:57 PM »
It was however created by something. You have to admit that.
I can't know that for certain. For all we know, there might not have been an origin point to the Universe. Again, the best we can produce for this is educated guesses. I prefer to call unknowns unknowns.

If you're telling me there aren't any, then that's my answer.
Then I'd say that's your answer.

I don't want to risk the ire of the group by pushing it any further
Don't read too much into my tone. I'm often described as a "pompous prick" - it's part of my unique charm.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
<Parsifal> I don't understand any of it but the symbols look nice

Re: Creation
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2020, 01:17:32 PM »
@AmoebaReeba

Quote
What is the accepted creation theory for a flat Earth?

A theory, in a scientific context, is (supposed to be) the most solid / vetted / experimentally validated knowledge in all of science.

Of course there is nothing like that for a "flat earth" if such a thing there be.

Likewise, of course there is nothing like that for a "round earth" either.

What we were taught, erroneously/disingenuously, from childhood (get 'em young!) as the science of "creation" is all evidenceless fiction - aka, mythology.  No science was involved at any point.  Science is only what rigorously adheres to the scientific method, with the caveat of natural law. The big bang, all stellar and planetary "evolution", as well as all planetology/climatology are mythology masquerading as science.  There are no experiments - hence, all we have is mythology - just like all the other times in human history.  Imagine being gullible enough to believe, TODAY things are finally different than they have always been.

You don't have a creation theory (in a scientific context) at all.  All you have is mythology.  Many of us here eschew mythology and belief in matters of knowledge/fact, ESPECIALLY scientific.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 02:51:58 AM by jack44556677 »