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Offline Roundy

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#justiceforRonJ
« on: September 18, 2020, 01:40:49 PM »
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=16926.msg220585#msg220585

RonJ was banned for harassment for making a derogatory post about Tom in AR. As I point out in the thread, this is wrong for several reasons. Tom never specifically asked him to stop abusing him, meaning the ban was unwarranted. RonJ never got a warning specifically about this offense, and the rule regarding harassment stipulates that one be given before a ban.

I understand he's a repeat offender but a 2 week ban without warning for something he said in AR is positively draconian.

#postingintheproperplace
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2020, 01:47:14 PM »
I should clarify that the ban we're discussing is a 5-week one, not 2. This is his 5th ban in rapid succession, so the time stacked up pretty high.

I should also point out that he made his post immediately below me asking that these posts stop. He even quoted that request, so it seems reasonable to assume he read and understood it. To claim that he wasn't warned is disingenuous, in my view, and we have never previously required for warnings to take the format of a logged PM. If you feel this should change, that's worth discussing, but it shouldn't apply retroactively.

I view the AR point as moot, because the rule Ron broke applies in all boards. AR does not get special treatment with rule 2.

That's pretty much all I have to say about the matter. Over to staff.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 01:55:24 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2020, 01:57:40 PM »
I should also point out that he made his post immediately below me asking that these posts stop. To claim that he wasn't warned is disingenuous, in my view, and we have never previously required for warnings to take the format of a logged PM. If you feel this should change, that's worth discussing, but it shouldn't apply retroactively.

I view the AR point as moot, because the rule Ron broke applies in all boards. AR does not get special treatment with rule 2.

That's pretty much all I have to say about the matter. Over to staff.
Not sure why Pete keeps going on about rule 2. This was not a campaign of continued harassment towards Tom Bishop. It was a Personal Attack in AR. And of course rule one protects Ronj stipulating "The exception to this rule is in Complete Nonsense and Angry Ranting, where personal attacks are par for the course." I cannot imagine what is going through Pete's mind to give someone a 5 week ban for a post in AR.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2020, 02:00:02 PM »
Not sure why Pete keeps going on about rule 2.
Because that's the rule RonJ was banned for breaking. I continue to dislike the consensus we've reached on how that rule works, but it is what's currently in place.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2020, 02:01:43 PM »
Well you can ban him for disrespecting the Queen if you like, but he didn't do that either. Just because you say he broke rule 2, doesn't mean he broke rule 2. He did not break rule 2. He's very comfortably protected by rule 1.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2020, 02:06:41 PM »
I'm sorry to hear you feel that way. He was told that Tom is not comfortable with that behaviour, and I recently reminded him of this. He doubled down. That follows every step of rule 2. Honestly, that's all there is to it.

I also question the merit of trying to unban someone who will just come back to do more EJ crap, and who will likely get re-banned within days. It doesn't help make the forum better, and I can't help but suspect that you're just trying to make this a bit of a personal skirmish.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2020, 02:19:08 PM »
I'm sorry to hear you feel that way.
No you aren't. Why do you keep making insincere statements in serious threads? That isn't likely to increase your credibility. 

He was told that Tom is not comfortable with that behaviour,
A legal fiction that you made up ... Tom has actually had nothing to do with this whatsoever. He hasn't even commented.

and I recently reminded him of this. He doubled down. That follows every step of rule 2. Honestly, that's all there is to it.
No, it doesn't. Someone not taking you seriously because frankly you are a meme of a moderator at this point, is hardly breaking rule 2. It is an example of you losing control because you aren't respected because you act like a fool most of the time.

I also question the merit of trying to unban someone who will just come back to do more EJ crap, and who will likely get re-banned within days. It doesn't help make the forum better, and I can't help but suspect that you're just trying to make this a bit of a personal skirmish.
Because you are making up new rules, not respecting the current rules and you'll be using Tom's Law on the rest of us in no time. We want a line in the sand so that you respect the forum rules.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2020, 02:21:48 PM »
[...] Someone not taking you seriously because frankly you are a meme of a moderator at this point, is hardly breaking rule 2. It is an example of you losing control because you aren't respected because you act like a fool most of the time.

I also question the merit of trying to unban someone who will just come back to do more EJ crap, and who will likely get re-banned within days. It doesn't help make the forum better, and I can't help but suspect that you're just trying to make this a bit of a personal skirmish.
Because you are making up new rules, not respecting the current rules and you'll be using Tom's Law on the rest of us in no time. We want a line in the sand so that you respect the forum rules.
Oh, so it is a personal skirmish. Very well. I hope that's taken into account when staff review the suggestion.

I think I've said everything that I have to say on this subject. I'll back off and let you guys work it out between yourselves, unless anything that requires my comment comes up.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2020, 02:22:43 PM »
Thork is right about this though. You can't call a single transgression harassment, that's not what harassment is, it implies a pattern of behavior.

And Rule 2 clearly stipulates that the offender should have been asked by the person being harassed to stop. So the fact that Tom has whined about how everyone makes fun of him in the past should be moot. Unless Tom specifically asked RonJ to stop I don't see how a ban is fair per the very verbiage of the rule in question.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2020, 02:31:26 PM »
Oh, so it is a personal skirmish. Very well. I hope that's taken into account when staff review the suggestion.

I'm sure you do hope that, but hopefully they'll also take into account that you trying to assign intent to a scenario to trivialise it, is just another deflection to excuse your poor lack of judgement.

I'm rather hoping that they wonder why the hell you banned someone for 5 weeks for a personal attack in AR, when there is no PM from Tom, no moderator report from Tom, no request in the thread for a cease to hostilities from Tom and no participation from Tom in the thread at all. I'm hoping they wonder where is the request from Tom? Where is the evidence of this pattern of behaviour and why is Pete handing out 5 week bans for people making personal attacks in AR when the very first forum rule states "The exception to this rule is in Complete Nonsense and Angry Ranting, where personal attacks are par for the course".

If we are going to examine Personal Skirmish, maybe we should look at how Pete interacts with Ronj and uses his forum privileges on someone he actively dislikes?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 02:34:12 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2020, 02:38:38 PM »
Thork is right about this though. You can't call a single transgression harassment, that's not what harassment is, it implies a pattern of behavior.
It's not a single transgression, that's the crux of the issue.

We've had an entire thread harassing Tom, which specifically featured RonJ as one of the most prolific contributors. Tom asked people to stop. They didn't stop. The thread got locked, and everyone involved was told to cool it. Yeah, junker didn't slap everyone with an individual PM warning - I don't think he should need to. Nonetheless, I don't think anyone had any doubts about the situation.

Fast-forward a few months, a handful of people try to resume this behaviour. I point out that we'd agreed this would stop. Most people stop. RonJ immediately chooses to double down. How many more times should we have to ask him before we can conclude that he was blatantly not interested in behaving?

And Rule 2 clearly stipulates that the offender should have been asked by the person being harassed to stop. So the fact that Tom has whined about how everyone makes fun of him in the past should be moot. Unless Tom specifically asked RonJ to stop I don't see how a ban is fair per the very verbiage of the rule in question.
The consensus we reached previously is that the rule can be applied to groups of people, and they were all asked to stop before. I didn't want to immediately start throwing bans around, which is why I repeated the request for people to stop, and only acted when RonJ openly chose to test me. The exact letter of the rule is important, but it is not the be-all-end-all - the spirit of the rule in this case is to prefer hate mobs like the original Tom thread from forming again. Ron was perfectly aware of the fact that Tom doesn't wish to be harassed in this form (he was informed of that before, and reminded moments before he chose to lash out) - that should be all that matters here.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 03:01:00 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Roundy

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2020, 03:12:02 PM »
Ok. Well I disagree. If you feel the rule in question doesn't accurately reflect how it's carried out, you should change the wording of the rule. The rule as it's written clearly states when behavior is considered harassment, and it isn't what you've laid out here. Change the wording of the rule to reflect how you implement it if that's the issue.

I maintain that unless RonJ was specifically asked by Tom to stop abusing him and he continued to do so anyway, the ban is unjust.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2020, 03:14:51 PM »
Ok. Well I disagree. If you feel the rule in question doesn't accurately reflect how it's carried out, you should change the wording of the rule. The rule as it's written clearly states when behavior is considered harassment, and it isn't what you've laid out here. Change the wording of the rule to reflect how you implement it if that's the issue.
I appreciate that point. I don't think it currently doesn't accurately reflect it, but you clearly disagree, and the rules should be as clear to all as possible. In the case that the ban is upheld, I'd be curious if you could make specific suggestions to change the phrasing. I will also try to come up with some suggestions of my own.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2020, 03:18:35 PM »
Why does anything need to change? Why can't you just admit when you are wrong? You could have done this yesterday before this even left AR and it would all be over. But no. You want to dig your heels in and make a huge drama out of it. Maybe the rules need rewriting, maybe AR needs destroying, maybe Ronj should go into purgatory ... you are prepared to entertain literally any suggestion, other than the common consensus that you got this one wrong. 🙄
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Offline Rushy

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2020, 06:52:46 PM »
Why can't you just admit when you are wrong?

Why don't you tell us, considering your copious experience on the subject of denial and being wrong.

I don't see anything wrong with Pete's decision. The poster was banned for ignoring previous warnings from a mod and AR doesn't give you the freedom to harass specific users repeatedly. It's a temporary ban... the poster isn't being executed by firing squad; I've never quite understood the need for these ban-drama threads.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 06:54:17 PM by Rushy »

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Offline la xasop

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2020, 07:08:46 PM »
As has been stated numerous times in the past, bans are issued for patterns of behaviour, not isolated incidents. RonJ can either demonstrate good faith by improving his behaviour, or he can continue doing what he just did and keep getting banned for it. The choice is his.
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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2020, 07:23:26 PM »
fwiw tbh imo if a mod asks you not to do something, then you probably shouldn't just immediately do that thing, even if that thing is not actually against the rules. make a post in S&C like "hey a mod told me not to do this thing but i think it's not against the rules actually." act like an adult.

or whatever just keep making mountains of molehills, i guess.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2020, 07:25:33 PM »
Well I did not see this verdict coming. 😱

Literally no one agrees with you. Not one person has posted in your defence.
Meanwhile, if anyone actually thinks I fucked up, you have every right to escalate it.
There is no point. The escalation process is broken. The moderation team do not reverse decisions.

There's no voting system or any balance to this forum. If you make a decision, all the other mods will back you no matter how dumb the decision was because they want backing when they f up, and that's it. Once a mod digs their heels in, it never gets changed.
If you will excuse me, during this moment of hyper lucidity I'm just going to the shop to put my lottery numbers on. It seems against all odds, I can predict just about anything right now. 


[/thread]
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Offline junker

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2020, 07:28:11 PM »
Well I did not see this verdict coming. 😱

Literally no one agrees with you. Not one person has posted in your defence.
Meanwhile, if anyone actually thinks I fucked up, you have every right to escalate it.
There is no point. The escalation process is broken. The moderation team do not reverse decisions.

There's no voting system or any balance to this forum. If you make a decision, all the other mods will back you no matter how dumb the decision was because they want backing when they f up, and that's it. Once a mod digs their heels in, it never gets changed.
If you will excuse me, during this moment of hyper lucidity I'm just going to the shop to put my lottery numbers on. It seems against all odds, I can predict just about anything right now. 


[/thread]

Please refrain from posting in S&C threads if you aren't going to contribute to the discussion. Stroking your own ego can be done in your rant down in AR.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: #justiceforRonJ
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2020, 07:57:19 PM »
Well I did not see this verdict coming. 😱

Literally no one agrees with you. Not one person has posted in your defence.
Meanwhile, if anyone actually thinks I fucked up, you have every right to escalate it.
There is no point. The escalation process is broken. The moderation team do not reverse decisions.

There's no voting system or any balance to this forum. If you make a decision, all the other mods will back you no matter how dumb the decision was because they want backing when they f up, and that's it. Once a mod digs their heels in, it never gets changed.
If you will excuse me, during this moment of hyper lucidity I'm just going to the shop to put my lottery numbers on. It seems against all odds, I can predict just about anything right now. 


[/thread]

Thork, nobody is going to be impressed by your ability to predict that people will disagree with you when you pretty much only ever act disagreeable. RonJ is not worth all of this trouble, frankly I'm kind of surprised he hasn't been permabanned yet. He's being afforded a lot of leeway.
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