Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« on: July 15, 2020, 06:10:24 AM »
The wiki article Southern Celestial Rotation poses the question:–

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Q. How can two people on opposite sides of the earth in Australia and South Ameirca (sic) both see the same South Pole Stars simultaneously?

and answers as follows:–

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A. Since those areas are many hours apart from each other, when it is night or dusk for one area it is likely day or dawn for the other. It is questioned whether it is the case that those observers see the same stars simultaneously. Due to the time difference it may be that they see the stars alternately.

Which South Pole stars are meant is not specified. There is also a link in the wiki article to a video by Kyle Adams making the claim that viewers in Australia and South America don't see the Southern Cross at the same time.

At present it's summer north of the Equator and winter south of it, so the nights are longer in South America and Australia. The stargazing program Stellarium shows on this date, July 15th 2020, at 11:18 (UTC+01) the Southern Cross is visible from Ushaia, Argentina at about 25 degrees above the horizon in the south. At the same time, the Southern Cross is visible from Perth, Australia at about 60 degrees above the horizon in the south. The local times will be 07:18 (UTC-3) in Ushaia and 18:18 (UTC+8) in Perth. Sunset in Perth is 17:30 and sunrise in Ushaia is 9:47.

It looks like we have two possibilities: (a) Stellarium is wrong (b) the wiki is wrong. They can't both be right.

Have we FE members living in or near these two locations who can tell us if the Southern Cross is visible at the time stated?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 07:55:11 AM by Longtitube »

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2020, 08:58:20 PM »
The sky chart is extremely well studied and can be found from many other sources than Stellarium. Countless websites and programs will give you that data, and all agree between them, so if the data were wrong I suppose we'd already know about it: it's very easily verified, you just have to look at the sky.

Crux has a declination of -60°. This means it's circumpolar for places south of 30th parallel south: it never sets under the horizon, so it's always visible at night in Ushuaia and Perth.

But there is an even simpler way to check if we can see the same celestial body at the same time from Argentina and Australia. Just wait until the December solstice. See the Sun rising in Ushuaia and setting in Sydney, or even as far as Christchurch: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20201221T0852 . You don't even need to go there or find someone who lives there, a live webcam will do the trick.

If you're lucky enough to find webcams looking West in Australia and East in Patagonia, you could even try with the Moon just two weeks from now: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/moon/light.html?iso=20200731T1832

Of course, you can also check Sun and Moon rise and set times in local media.
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Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2020, 07:13:45 AM »
...But there is an even simpler way to check if we can see the same celestial body at the same time from Argentina and Australia. Just wait until the December solstice. See the Sun rising in Ushuaia and setting in Sydney, or even as far as Christchurch: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20201221T0852 . You don't even need to go there or find someone who lives there, a live webcam will do the trick.

No offence, and it’s a good idea at face value, but to see Crux you need darkness - twilight can swamp the sky enough to obscure the constellations after sunset and before sunrise. The times given take account of this, they should be sufficiently dark to give a good view. Further, although Crux is shown as you say in the sky, from Perth it dips partially below the horizon at times - the declination figure is likely for the centre of the constellation and not all its stars. You also need a very clear horizon to see a body at, say, 2 degrees above it.

Offline edby

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Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2020, 07:35:39 AM »
Can you spell out the logic here? Here is the AE map https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png which has Australia and the tip of South America at opposite ends of the world, with the N Pole in between. Then can you spell out why, in that case, it would be difficult for viewers in those locations to see the Southern Cross at the same time? Can’t they just both look across the earth?

Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2020, 08:21:30 AM »
Which map do you mean? I find no agreement on what an FE map looks like, apart from the North Pole being in the centre. However, the logic is that north is pointing towards the north pole, so south points towards the rim of the known FE model of the world. If South America and Australia are in fact in opposite directions from the north pole then looking south from each country towards the Southern Cross is to look in opposite directions on the world. Therefore the same stars should not be visible at the same time from Australia and from South America and the wiki says as much in the question it both poses and answers.

 However, they are, according to reliable star charts. That’s the problem.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 09:02:36 AM by Longtitube »

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Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2020, 10:30:52 AM »
Which map do you mean?

I linked to the map in my comment - the AE map. Of course there are other maps, and there is no agreement but we have to settle on one of them in order to understand what the problem is.

Clearly Possibly there is an 'opposite direction' problem if the AE map is correct.

[EDIT]

The subject of the South Celestial Pole has been discussed many times here. E.g.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6046
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=4844

Someone made exactly the same point about direction here:
Quote
If three people are standing looking south in South Africa, Argentina, and Australia at the same time they all are looking in the same direction to see the South Star.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5269.msg104166#msg104166

Tom correctly replied that we needed evidence to support that assertion. How do we demonstrate that if three people are standing looking south in South Africa, Argentina, and Australia at the same time they all are looking in the same direction to see the South Star? What counts as ‘looking in the same direction’ here? The fact that they are all looking at the South Star? I.e. ‘South’ means ‘the apparent direction of the South Star’?

But that is circular reasoning. We can’t get them all in the same place to verify that they are looking in the same direction, because the observation requires that they are in different places.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 11:19:41 AM by edby »

totallackey

Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2020, 11:26:50 AM »
How do we demonstrate that if three people are standing looking south in South Africa, Argentina, and Australia at the same time they all are looking in the same direction to see the South Star?
At what time could this occur, regardless of which direction they would be looking?

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Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2020, 12:00:33 PM »
...But there is an even simpler way to check if we can see the same celestial body at the same time from Argentina and Australia. Just wait until the December solstice. See the Sun rising in Ushuaia and setting in Sydney, or even as far as Christchurch: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20201221T0852 . You don't even need to go there or find someone who lives there, a live webcam will do the trick.

No offence, and it’s a good idea at face value, but to see Crux you need darkness - twilight can swamp the sky enough to obscure the constellations after sunset and before sunrise. The times given take account of this, they should be sufficiently dark to give a good view. Further, although Crux is shown as you say in the sky, from Perth it dips partially below the horizon at times - the declination figure is likely for the centre of the constellation and not all its stars. You also need a very clear horizon to see a body at, say, 2 degrees above it.

Absolutely, my point here is that you don't need to see Crux when you can see the Sun or the Moon at the same time from Ushuaia and Perth.

How do we demonstrate that if three people are standing looking south in South Africa, Argentina, and Australia at the same time they all are looking in the same direction to see the South Star?
At what time could this occur, regardless of which direction they would be looking?

Whenever it's dark in all three places simultaneously. Provided we agree on what the "South Star" is.
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totallackey

Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2020, 12:10:09 PM »
How do we demonstrate that if three people are standing looking south in South Africa, Argentina, and Australia at the same time they all are looking in the same direction to see the South Star?
At what time could this occur, regardless of which direction they would be looking?
Whenever it's dark in all three places simultaneously. Provided we agree on what the "South Star" is.
That's terrific!

Kindly let us all know when that is exactly, and for your benefit, I will also let you choose ANY supposed "South Star."

Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2020, 12:29:46 PM »
I didn’t mention South Africa because at the time I specified it will be daylight, the late morning. Readers might like to check this.

Offline edby

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Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2020, 01:00:55 PM »
How do we demonstrate that if three people are standing looking south in South Africa, Argentina, and Australia at the same time they all are looking in the same direction to see the South Star?
At what time could this occur, regardless of which direction they would be looking?

Whenever it's dark in all three places simultaneously. Provided we agree on what the "South Star" is.

Still leaves the problem of how we verify that all three are looking in the same direction. You say “South”. But I reply, if ‘South’ means the direction of the South Star (or Sigma Octantis or whatever), then to say they are looking in the same direction means that they are all looking at the South Star. Why would that be a problem? You need some test, other than the fact that they are all looking at the same star, to verify that the direction is the same. Does my point make more sense now?

Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2020, 02:50:09 PM »
North is pointing directly towards the North Pole, south is pointing directly away from the North Pole.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 03:00:10 PM by Longtitube »

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2020, 08:14:04 PM »
How do we demonstrate that if three people are standing looking south in South Africa, Argentina, and Australia at the same time they all are looking in the same direction to see the South Star?
At what time could this occur, regardless of which direction they would be looking?
Whenever it's dark in all three places simultaneously. Provided we agree on what the "South Star" is.
That's terrific!

Kindly let us all know when that is exactly, and for your benefit, I will also let you choose ANY supposed "South Star."

It doesn't happen often, but for example at this time : https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20200620T2212 , the South of Argentina and the West coast of Australia are between nautical and astronomical twilight. Not the darkest hour of the night, but dark enough to see many stars.

We could try to find a star bright enough that would be visible from these three places with the naked eye, or basic equipment like a pair of binoculars. But why bother? Once again, there are simpler ways of verifying we can see the same celestial body simultaneously from all three places:
* The Sun https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20201221T0852
* The Moon https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/moon/light.html?iso=20200731T1832
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Offline edby

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Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2020, 08:17:47 AM »
North is pointing directly towards the North Pole, south is pointing directly away from the North Pole.

But you cannot see the North or South Pole from any of the locations mentioned. The issue is one of verifiability.

Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2020, 08:46:53 AM »
I cannot see either from where I am too, I must be lost....

For that matter, how do you know neither pole is visible from the locations mentioned, and is there really a south pole? Please verify your claims.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 08:51:50 AM by Longtitube »

Offline edby

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Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2020, 10:32:57 AM »
I cannot see either from where I am too, I must be lost....

For that matter, how do you know neither pole is visible from the locations mentioned, and is there really a south pole? Please verify your claims.

I have to verify that I don't know something?

Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2020, 11:08:17 AM »
Excuse me, but this is a silly game. The question is whether stars in the south, eg the Southern Cross (Crux) are visible from Perth, Australia and Ushaia, Argentina at the same time. Reliable star charts say they are, but it would help if people who live in these places could confirm this.

Offline edby

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Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2020, 09:51:15 AM »
Excuse me, but this is a silly game. The question is whether stars in the south, eg the Southern Cross (Crux) are visible from Perth, Australia and Ushaia, Argentina at the same time. Reliable star charts say they are, but it would help if people who live in these places could confirm this.
How would it help? Assume both FE and RE agree on the actual observation, that Crux was visible at the same time from all of those points. What are you trying to prove? Why would that observation contradict FE?

Re: Southern Celestial Rotation in the wiki
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2020, 10:03:39 AM »
The original post sets out the problem.